Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > FFL's Forum
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-24-2012, 1:43 PM
scld1354 scld1354 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Bernardino
Posts: 75
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default Exception to 50 yr old C&R requirement?

This may have been covered before. If so, I apologize...

I had an experience a few years back where I sold another Calgunner a Yugo
SKS. It was 100% stock. We met at a large chain retail gun store to do the DROS. The guy behind the counter said it didn't need to be DROSed, and showed me the PDF avaialbe at the ATF website (see http://www.atf.gov/publications/fire...elics-list.pdf).

On page 33, the very last item listed is "Yugoslavian manufactured rifles, M59 and M59/66 7.62 X 39mm caliber, all semiautomatic variations and having a fixed magazine, manufactured from 1947-1992."

We ended up DROSing the rifle anyway, but I always wondered if the guy behind the counter was correct.

So my question is, is CA definition of a C&R different than the Federal definition of a C&R firearm? I know there are other stipulations that would exclude the firearm from being legal in CA, say for example an AK47 manufactured in 1955 because it is classified as an assault rifle. I ask because I am looking for another SKS, an FN49 or a Hakim. All of these items appear on the BATFE C&R list. Does anyone know for sure, or are these DROSed to CYA?

Thanks

Last edited by scld1354; 11-24-2012 at 1:50 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-24-2012, 3:36 PM
rromeo's Avatar
rromeo rromeo is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Radford, VA
Posts: 5,655
iTrader: 22 / 100%
Default

A rifle needs to be 50 years old to be sold ftf without DROS. A rifle can be C&R, and not be 50 years old.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-24-2012, 5:09 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 32,286
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

PC 27965 -
Quote:
(a) If all of the following requirements are satisfied,
Section 27545 [[ the 'you must use a dealer' law ]] does not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm:
(1) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in
Section 16730.
(2) The firearm is not a handgun.
(3) The firearm is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years
prior to the current date but is not a replica,
as defined in
Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its
successor.
(b) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1,
2014, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted
statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2014, deletes or extends
that date.
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-24-2012, 5:20 PM
Tripper's Avatar
Tripper Tripper is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Coast-Salinas
Posts: 6,837
iTrader: 92 / 100%
Default

Only 1 more year to buy C&R FTF?
__________________
WTT/S M&P40c
WTT/S Sig P220
WTB Glock 23
WTT 45 ammo
KZ1000 Police Motorcycle
Movado His/Her Watches
Front Sight 4-Day Handgun $99
PM about Front Sight Lifetime Memberships or Training Certificates
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-24-2012, 6:08 PM
scld1354 scld1354 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Bernardino
Posts: 75
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Ok, but then it states 'as defined by section 478.11 of the ...' I believe that section of Title 27 CFR states in order to qualify as C&R it has to be 50 years old, unless valued for it's collectibility, or has been approved by the attorney general (?).

Last edited by scld1354; 11-24-2012 at 6:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-24-2012, 7:55 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 32,286
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scld1354 View Post
Ok, but then it states 'as defined by section 478.11 of the ...' I believe that section of Title 27 CFR states in order to qualify as C&R it has to be 50 years old, unless valued for it's collectibility, or has been approved by the attorney general (?).
So: CA allows FFL-free transfer of the 50-year-old-and older group, and requires the FFL for less than 50 years old - even if it's on the BATF C&R list.

A C&R FFL is an FFL. Inside California, C&R licensees don't need a 'regular' FFL to handle their C&R long gun transfers, 50 years old or not.
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-25-2012, 5:47 AM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is online now
short bus driver
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: the 909
Posts: 17,848
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
Only 1 more year to buy C&R FTF?
Correct.

Starting 01-01-2014, only a C&R FFL with a COE can conduct "cash & carry" type transfers of C&R long guns.
Everyone else will no longer be exempt and will need to conduct transfers of 50+ year old long guns through CA FFL dealers.


Penal Code 27966
Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued thereto.
(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department.
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-25-2012, 9:55 AM
Max Power!'s Avatar
Max Power! Max Power! is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 623
iTrader: 23 / 100%
Default

The original M59/66 has a grenade launcher on it. Those are not legal in California, so they replaced the grenade launcher with a muzzle break. According to ATF rules, modification of the rifle in this way removes the curio and relic status. In that case, it must be transferred through a FFL and be DROSed.

Last edited by Max Power!; 11-25-2012 at 10:15 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-25-2012, 10:44 AM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 32,286
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrodp View Post
The original M59/66 has a grenade launcher on it. Those are not legal in California, so they replaced the grenade launcher with a muzzle break. According to ATF rules, modification of the rifle in this way removes the curio and relic status. In that case, it must be transferred through a FFL and be DROSed.
However, some of those Yugos had a sleeve welded over the grenade launcher and did not replace it with a muzzle brake. I have no idea what that did to C&R status.
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-25-2012, 11:18 AM
scld1354 scld1354 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Bernardino
Posts: 75
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Correct.

Starting 01-01-2014, only a C&R FFL with a COE can conduct "cash & carry" type transfers of C&R long guns.
Everyone else will no longer be exempt and will need to conduct transfers of 50+ year old long guns through CA FFL dealers.


Penal Code 27966
Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector pursuant to and the regulations issued thereto.
(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department.
I don't see the explicit requirement that a firearm be at least 50 years old. So then, beginning 1-1-14, a firearm does not have to be at least 50 years old to be eligible as a C&R. This is an excerpt from the BATF:

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within <i>one</i> of the following categories:

• Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof.

• Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest.

• Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector’s items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-25-2012, 12:04 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 32,286
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scld1354 View Post
I don't see the explicit requirement that a firearm be at least 50 years old. So then, beginning 1-1-14, a firearm does not have to be at least 50 years old to be eligible as a C&R. This is an excerpt from the BATF:

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within <i>one</i> of the following categories:

• Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof.

• Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest.

• Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector’s items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
The PC that Quiet posted, 27966, is the REPLACEMENT for the one I posted, 27965.

27966 goes into effect in 2014; in 2014, the 50-year exemption goes away - exactly as 27965 says in (b), added by the same bill that added 27966
Quote:
(b) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1,
2014, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted
statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2014, deletes or extends
that date.
In 2014, ALL C&R sales must go through a 'regular' FFL, unless the gun is a long gun and the buyer is a C&R licensee with the CA COE.

No one is arguing about BATF's own list and definition. At the moment, until 2014, CA accepts ONLY THE 50 YEAR OLD + SUBSET of C&R long guns as exempt from using an FFL for transfer.
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



Last edited by Librarian; 11-25-2012 at 12:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-25-2012, 12:48 PM
sarabellum sarabellum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 749
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scld1354 View Post
I don't see the explicit requirement that a firearm be at least 50 years old. So then, beginning 1-1-14, a firearm does not have to be at least 50 years old to be eligible as a C&R. This is an excerpt from the BATF:

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

...• Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector’s items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
This last explanation, drafted in the inclusive, "any other," of a statutory provision is highly ambiguous and so broad that it swallows the new California rule. What is novel, rare, bizarre, historical figure, or event? For example, a rare long rifle in some folk's opinion is/are the Finnish Mosin Nagant rifles. For example, a historical figure is medicine man Goyakla, known to the world as Geronimo, and the historical period is his service in the original homeland security fighting against terrorism in the 1880s. His weapons included the 1873 Infantry Rile and lever action rifles. Goyakla in this remarkable photograph holds a Model 1873 Springfield Infantry Rifle, ramrod and cleaning sticks. Other, from left to right: Yanozha; Chappo (Geronimo;s son); Yanozha's half-brother, Fun. Photographed in 1886 by Camillus Sidney Fly.

IMHO, we should press the State on arms of historic significance, irrespective of age.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-25-2012, 1:32 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 32,286
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarabellum View Post
IMHO, we should press the State on arms of historic significance, irrespective of age.
Far too late for that one. The 'register your rifles' law goes into effect in 2014; with the legislature in its current configuration, getting a favorable change, even a little one that affects few people, is highly unlikely.

And folks with C&R licenses
* can now and still in 2014 buy any C&R guns out of state,
* can now buy any C&R long gun in state without a 'regular' FFL involved (but handguns in state must go through a 'regular' FFL), and
* in 2014 need the COE to buy C&R in state without a 'regular' FFL involved.

It's folks without the C&R license who are most inconvenienced.
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



Last edited by Librarian; 11-25-2012 at 1:35 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-25-2012, 3:34 PM
scld1354 scld1354 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Bernardino
Posts: 75
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Very informative discussion. It sounds like I will be getting my FFL 03 and CEO in the next 6 months or so.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:28 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.