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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-15-2012, 2:40 PM
holiday holiday is offline
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Default ccw question?

hello,

sorry if this is the wrong forum, or has been answered a thousand times but:

if you have a valid ccw in california, and you are carrying a loaded gun (concealed) in your car within arms reach, and you get pulled over by an officer of the law, must you tell that officer that you have a ccw and there is a loaded weapon in the car?

i don't remember this being discussed in my ccw class, and maybe the laws have changed, but a friend of mind told this to me and said it is the law. if you allz could provide a link or a quick answer that would be great.

thanks in advance, and please no flames.

holiday
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  #2  
Old 11-15-2012, 2:52 PM
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No code requires notification. Some issuing agencies recommend it as a requirement of their issuance. Recommending is what they can do, and pulling your permit is what they can do as well.
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  #3  
Old 11-15-2012, 2:53 PM
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CA has no legal requirement to inform LEOs that you are carrying. Several others states do have that requirement.

Some people believe it is better to tell the LEO that you have a gun rather than let him find it on his own, some do not.
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Old 11-15-2012, 3:24 PM
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well that really brings up an interesting point, and please chime in if your law enforcement. i would rather not bring attention to it unless i am asked by the officer if any weapons are in the car. the officer is just going to issue the ticket and be on his way so why would he need to know. now if he was in the process of doing a vehicle search, then i would notify him.

i got my ccw in sac county and like i said, i don't remember that being the case. my friend is placer county so maybe they require that? does that mean you would have to know county by county who does and who does not?

thanks guys for the prompt responses
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  #5  
Old 11-15-2012, 3:31 PM
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If there is such a restriction, it will be printed on your card. If it is not there, then it's up to you.

If you decide you should tell the cop, there are ways not to do it.

Opinions vary, but one recommended way is to hand the permit over with your driving license. Another is to say something like "I have a concealed carry permit and I am carrying a firearm."

It is probably best if you do not start out by saying "I have a gun!" Give him chance to absorb the idea slowly.

Keep your hands on the wheel or in plain sight. Do not reach for your gun unless you are told to, and then do it slowly.
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Last edited by Glock22Fan; 11-15-2012 at 3:35 PM..
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  #6  
Old 11-15-2012, 3:40 PM
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Not unless he asks but it a good ideal to tell him (in my opinion)
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  #7  
Old 11-15-2012, 3:41 PM
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even when i didn't have a ccw, i would always stay in the vehicle with the hands on the wheel until asked for the license and registration....officers appreciate that
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Old 11-15-2012, 3:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holiday View Post
well that really brings up an interesting point, and please chime in if your law enforcement. i would rather not bring attention to it unless i am asked by the officer if any weapons are in the car. the officer is just going to issue the ticket and be on his way so why would he need to know. now if he was in the process of doing a vehicle search, then i would notify him.

i got my ccw in sac county and like i said, i don't remember that being the case. my friend is placer county so maybe they require that? does that mean you would have to know county by county who does and who does not?

thanks guys for the prompt responses

http://www.sacsheriff.com/organizati...cw_process.pdf

Quote:
Restrictions Applicable to All Sacramento Sheriff’s Department Permit Holders
(Permit invalid if violated)
• While exercising the permit and carrying a weapon, no alcohol consumption is
permitted.
• No permitted weapon is allowed where weapons are prohibited by law.
• No permitted weapon is allowed at locations where a sign is posted prohibiting
weapons.
• The Sheriff may impose additional restrictions.
• During any law enforcement contact, you are required to disclose your status as a
CCW permit holder and you must disclose whether or not you are carrying a
weapon on your person or in your vehicle.

Failure of the permit holder to adhere to these restrictions will result in the
revocation of the concealed weapons permit.
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  #9  
Old 11-15-2012, 3:47 PM
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I look at it this was as a retired officer, I would much rather say something than have his cover officer see it. Just to defuse a bad situation before it starts so to speak. I'm just kind of funny that way I don't like having loaded guns pointed at me. If someone doesn't want to disclose that they are armed, that is their right, and I am ok with that. For me Murphy's law being what it is, and not wanting any more holes in me than came as standard equipment I'm speaking up.
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  #10  
Old 11-15-2012, 3:48 PM
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IMHO
Hand over your DL and your Permit at the same time.

It will make for a vary bad day if the LE were to see a gun before you told them you have a permit. Once you have them pointing theirs at you they don't often want you to do anything but STFU and do what thay say
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  #11  
Old 11-15-2012, 3:56 PM
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From what I have read here, informing the officer politely may save you from a ticket.
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  #12  
Old 11-15-2012, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cranemech View Post
That's the sheriff department trying to install their own law on top of PC 26150, which says: (my emphasis). Of course, you may decide not to risk getting into an argument about it. It's probably, almost certainly, best to obey the restriction if you have a Sacramento LTC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PC26150
snip
(b) A license may include any reasonable restrictions or conditions which the issuing authority deems warranted, including restrictions as to the time, place, manner, and circumstances under which the person may carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(c) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (b) shall be indicated on any license issued.

snip
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Old 11-15-2012, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Glock22Fan View Post
That's the sheriff department trying to install their own law on top of PC 26150, which says: (my emphasis). Of course, you may decide not to risk getting into an argument about it. It's probably, almost certainly, best to obey the restriction if you have a Sacramento LTC.
I'm not willing to risk mine.
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  #14  
Old 11-15-2012, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cranemech View Post
I'm not willing to risk mine.
Oh, I am. Particularly if it means that the issuing authority gets a smackdown as a result of an unlawful policy.
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  #15  
Old 11-15-2012, 4:58 PM
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I have a good friend that I went to school with (and we go shooting and hunting to this day) he is a Sac Sheriff.

When I got my LTC this was not part of the papers I had nor was it talked about at the sheriff station, but I asked my friend and he said yes tell them its, the right thing to do. When they run you (most of they time they do it with your plate) it will come back that you have a LTC.

But I have not talked to a cop over something I did wrong in 20 years (knock on wood)
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  #16  
Old 11-15-2012, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cranemech View Post
pretty clear right there...so i am glad i asked here. i would rather be safe then sorry, so i will be letting them know. i would hate to get popped for not disclosing that info, as it would be quite embarassing as well as not worth the loss of a permit, or going to court and fighting over it.

thanks for the link, info, and thoughts everyone.

if someone could come up with a concrete answer as to why not disclose, then i am all ears. i personally don't like the spin on the PC, but that is what sac county requires so i will abide.
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2012, 6:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pdq_wizzard View Post
I have a good friend that I went to school with (and we go shooting and hunting to this day) he is a Sac Sheriff.

When I got my LTC this was not part of the papers I had nor was it talked about at the sheriff station, but I asked my friend and he said yes tell them its, the right thing to do. When they run you (most of they time they do it with your plate) it will come back that you have a LTC.
But I have not talked to a cop over something I did wrong in 20 years (knock on wood)
So, am I the only one who wonders why would they require you to roll over to bare your belly in submission to the alpha dog, if it is already known when they run your information, that you have a LTC? Is this the same sort of thinking that makes them feel safer when officers command you not to reload your firearm until after they leave?
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Last edited by CitaDeL; 11-15-2012 at 6:22 PM..
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Old 11-15-2012, 6:32 PM
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I don't believe that LTC information is available beyond a local entry if even there. DMV doesn't have that info in their system, nor do I think it would come up in a standard warrant check. If it is available at all I think it would have to be a specific request. I know I've never seen it come up anywhere.
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Old 11-15-2012, 7:46 PM
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Never heard of LTC being linked to DL or car registration in this state.
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Old 11-15-2012, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
So, am I the only one who wonders why would they require you to roll over to bare your belly in submission to the alpha dog, if it is already known when they run your information, that you have a LTC? Is this the same sort of thinking that makes them feel safer when officers command you not to reload your firearm until after they leave?
So you would prefer to increase the risk for everyone involved, for no reason other than a crappy attitude? T-stops are at the top of the list of officer injuries/deaths. Purposely risking an escalation to what is already a potentially tense situation is simply asking for trouble.

Handing over the LTC with your ID indicates to the LEO that you take the responsibility of carrying a weapon seriously. No promises, but from my experience on both sides of a badge LTC holders that 'pass the attitude test' are considered one of the good guys & treated accordingly. Stupidity in public results in an abrupt reversal.
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Old 11-15-2012, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Invisible_Dave View Post
Never heard of LTC being linked to DL or car registration in this state.
It's not. The CAD systems can link the various data sources (DMV, warrants, LTC, NCIC, etc.) for searches based on the input (license plate, drivers license, etc.).
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  #22  
Old 11-15-2012, 9:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalblue View Post
Stupidity in public results in an abrupt reversal.
Do you mean to say that not performing some extralegal (and, arguably, unconstitutional) act is stupidity, or that everyone is a "good guy" until they behave unlawfully?

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Old 11-15-2012, 11:54 PM
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Default CCW and police.

Some states do link CCW permits to Driver's licenses, but since our CCW permits are handled on a county/city level, we probably aren't there yet.

Now if I get pulled over, my prime focus is to AVOID an traffic ticket, I have better things to spend my money on.

While they don't have CCW permits on a statewide data base, I believe they may have you tagged if you have registered AWs.

While I don't have much interaction with the police, the few times I have had some interaction have been drama-free.

Be polite and nice, don't be a jerk. I would definitely inform a police officer.

From my perspective, a large percentage of police officers get killed during routine traffic stops, so to a certain extent, they are already on edge.

From that perspective, not informing them could inadvertently give me a case of lead poisoning.

Nicki
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Old 11-16-2012, 5:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalblue View Post
So you would prefer to increase the risk for everyone involved, for no reason other than a crappy attitude? T-stops are at the top of the list of officer injuries/deaths. Purposely risking an escalation to what is already a potentially tense situation is simply asking for trouble.

Handing over the LTC with your ID indicates to the LEO that you take the responsibility of carrying a weapon seriously. No promises, but from my experience on both sides of a badge LTC holders that 'pass the attitude test' are considered one of the good guys & treated accordingly. Stupidity in public results in an abrupt reversal.
Attitude has absolutely no bearing on how one exercizes their rights.

The only time it should be necessary to present a LTC to a peace officer is if it is the cause of the stop/detention. In other words, it isnt a peace officer's business whether a law abiding gun owner is armed or not, if the purpose of the stop is anything other than the use of a concealled handgun.

A traffic infraction, for instance, is not a reason for a LTC holder to declare that they are armed or present their LTC.

If peace officers cannot mitigate risk or fear during a traffic stop without infringing upon an individual's civil rights, then I believe they have selected the wrong vocation.
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Old 11-16-2012, 5:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
So, am I the only one who wonders why would they require you to roll over to bare your belly in submission to the alpha dog, if it is already known when they run your information, that you have a LTC? Is this the same sort of thinking that makes them feel safer when officers command you not to reload your firearm until after they leave?
CA is different than other places...I had a chl in Texas for 13 years and have one currently in Idaho for the past 12 or so. Both states require notifying the popo if you're pulled over and both link the permit to your DL...

So, an outside chance if you have a permit and do not present it during a traffic stop you might have a service pistol screwed into your left ear.

That said, cops in both states are trained to assume there's a gun someplace in the car during any stop. Presenting the permit results in simply being asked where the weapon is, at least in my limited experience. Once you give them location you're treated as normally. You don't exit the car, they don't unload your weapon, etc.

CA officers seem to be trained to think that presence of a permitted gun puts them in imminent danger...no officer who's stopped me nor whom I know think having a permitted weapon in the car is any big deal...major difference in mindset.

I would tend to present the permit on top of the dl when handed over...scratching belly/alpha dog chit sounds manly, but common courtesy dictates you notify ahead of time, at least imo.

You may not be legally required to present the permit, but acting jerky can involve supervision being called and once that happens you may lose a bunch of time on the side of the road.

I shoot with a bunch of officers and deputies here, neighbor is an ISP lieutenant and you can trust me in that any K9 officer I've ever met can get the dog to alert with a quite voice command...once the pup alerts, you're guaranteed to be late for wherever you're headed.

-hanko
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Old 11-16-2012, 6:00 AM
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Originally Posted by -hanko View Post
I shoot with a bunch of officers and deputies here, neighbor is an ISP lieutenant and you can trust me in that any K9 officer I've ever met can get the dog to alert with a quite voice command...once the pup alerts, you're guaranteed to be late for wherever you're headed.

-hanko
Feel like I'm gonna puke...disgusting...
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Old 11-16-2012, 6:39 AM
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Something to help you make an informed decision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kassP7zI0qc

For the record, I would recommend advising your employee (the police officer) of the circumstances. Do so in a calm, clear manner. For example, "I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I have a handgun with me now. It is loaded. It's under the driver's seat. My permit is in my wallet." If something goes wrong after that, you will be in a much better legal position.
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Old 11-16-2012, 6:58 AM
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Default Disclosing

San Berdoo requires us to disclose that we are carrying if pulled over or detained by law enforcement for any reason.

Personally, I feel the best way to do this is to just hand them the license along with my CDL. Officers believe what they can see, not so much what they hear.

Let's suppose I say, "I have a license to conceal and are carrying today". What he heard was me admitting I have a gun on me. Now, I most definitely have his attention. Until he sees the license, I'm asking him to trust me that I have one.

Rather than say the word "weapon" or "gun", I just hand them my LTC along with the license.

Haven't had a ticket since taking this approach.
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Old 11-16-2012, 7:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -hanko View Post
CA is different than other places...I had a chl in Texas for 13 years and have one currently in Idaho for the past 12 or so. Both states require notifying the popo if you're pulled over and both link the permit to your DL...

So, an outside chance if you have a permit and do not present it during a traffic stop you might have a service pistol screwed into your left ear.

That said, cops in both states are trained to assume there's a gun someplace in the car during any stop. Presenting the permit results in simply being asked where the weapon is, at least in my limited experience. Once you give them location you're treated as normally. You don't exit the car, they don't unload your weapon, etc.

CA officers seem to be trained to think that presence of a permitted gun puts them in imminent danger...no officer who's stopped me nor whom I know think having a permitted weapon in the car is any big deal...major difference in mindset.

I would tend to present the permit on top of the dl when handed over...scratching belly/alpha dog chit sounds manly, but common courtesy dictates you notify ahead of time, at least imo.

You may not be legally required to present the permit, but acting jerky can involve supervision being called and once that happens you may lose a bunch of time on the side of the road.

I shoot with a bunch of officers and deputies here, neighbor is an ISP lieutenant and you can trust me in that any K9 officer I've ever met can get the dog to alert with a quite voice command...once the pup alerts, you're guaranteed to be late for wherever you're headed.

-hanko
Do I have to ask where attitude is relevant to exercizing the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures? Likewise, whether I am armed is irrelevant to a traffic stop for a speeding ticket, failure to use turn signals or an expired registration.

By presenting a license to carry concealed (with no obligation to inform), you are opening yourself up to search and seizure that you werent otherwise going to be subjected to if you had asserted your 5th amendment right to remain silent.

Officers in during a traffic stop deserve the courtesy of my minimal cooperation, a please and a thank you, and a signature on the summons- but they dont get a free look at my goodies because they feel unsafe.
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Old 11-16-2012, 2:14 PM
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why isn't this topic discussed during a ccw course? i don't believe this ever came up during my 2 day class. i am very surprised, only because i believe this should have been covered; however, i do believe it is my responisibility to know the laws and regs behind the ccw permit. it is naive to think all ltc's don't break any traffic laws...probably happens more often then one would think. i would hate to lose my permit because of it
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Old 11-16-2012, 2:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holiday View Post
why isn't this topic discussed during a ccw course? i don't believe this ever came up during my 2 day class. i am very surprised, only because i believe this should have been covered; however, i do believe it is my responisibility to know the laws and regs behind the ccw permit. it is naive to think all ltc's don't break any traffic laws...probably happens more often then one would think. i would hate to lose my permit because of it
Bottom line: if it's not printed on the permit, it's not an enforceable law or regulation. (Even if it is, it may not be lawful or constitutional.)

Revocations should be reported to us at calgunsfoundation.org/hotline.

-Brandon
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Old 11-16-2012, 2:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holiday View Post
why isn't this topic discussed during a ccw course? i don't believe this ever came up during my 2 day class. i am very surprised, only because i believe this should have been covered; however, i do believe it is my responisibility to know the laws and regs behind the ccw permit. it is naive to think all ltc's don't break any traffic laws...probably happens more often then one would think. i would hate to lose my permit because of it
If it wasn't mentioned it sounds like it's most likely NOT a restriction (confirm before assuming by looking at the restrictions on your CCW first).

It wasn't discussed in my class either but I asked during the Q&A session and they said 'no but highly recommended'.

The class is to tell you the restrictions and laws around the CCW. If they took their time to explain everything that isn't a law or restriction, you'd be there all week.
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Old 11-16-2012, 2:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaligaran View Post
If it wasn't mentioned it sounds like it's most likely NOT a restriction (confirm before assuming by looking at the restrictions on your CCW first).

It wasn't discussed in my class either but I asked during the Q&A session and they said 'no but highly recommended'.

The class is to tell you the restrictions and laws around the CCW. If they took their time to explain everything that isn't a law or restriction, you'd be there all week.
The balance to this is that most [CA] LTC training I've seen or read about is woefully defective, and in some instances dangerously wrong.

-Brandon
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Old 11-16-2012, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
The balance to this is that most [CA] LTC training I've seen or read about is woefully defective, and in some instances dangerously wrong.

-Brandon
I took the CCW class in TN about 12 years ago and also took it in FL about 5 years ago. Both were like 6 hours (classroom type setting followed by a 2 hour range portion) packed full of great info.

Here it was 35ish minutes in my county and about 30 minutes on the range.

It was so bare minimum. I was shocked.
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Old 11-16-2012, 5:21 PM
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This exact topic did come up in our CCW class.

And although is not required to inform in my county

It is considered good manners, and most likely the quickest way, to get on your way.
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Old 11-16-2012, 7:26 PM
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Been there done that!

I was pulled over for uhhhh "blowing the pipes out" (at least that is what the Elk Grove LEO asked me), and the first thing I did was hand him my carry license and drivers license.

He received "a call" that someone in a red Mustang Cobra was racing someone down Elk Grove Blvd (I was only trying to distance myself from some a**hole that revved at me for 4 lights).

After I handed him my permit, I then informed him I am reaching for my registration out of the glove box.

He asked if I was LE, I said no, then asked where is the firearm and I informed him on my right hip.

I then told him again I am reaching for my registration, he said don't worry about it, might need you some day... (yes, I know COOL STORY BRO! but the truth)

The ending of the encounter was "have a nice day".

Moral of the story, ignore JACKA*SSES!!
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Old 11-18-2012, 8:59 AM
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Our issuing agency told me that there are two restrictions placed on our LTC's (no consumption of alcohol while carrying, No consumption of drugs that alter your state of mind,(illegal or prescriptive)

The license must be presented to LE if asked to show it. (Simple proof that you have the license to carry the concealed listed handgun.)

I was also told there is no reason at all to volunteer your license to carry to LE upon routine encounters. They already take safety precautions against people wanting to do harm to them. Whether you have a license or not, if you are willing to do harm to LE, what does an LTC have to do with the price of rice in China?

In my opinion, people that volunteer their license when not required to are simply trying to show the LEO that they have a license and are above others and should not get a ticket for what they may have already done wrong.
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Old 11-18-2012, 4:40 PM
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My Sac county license word for word says:

"Not valid if consuming alchohol or remaining at any establishment that primarily serves alchohol. If contacted by law enforcement and carrying a concealed weapon, you must advise the officer of the presence of a firearm either on your person or otherwise present."

Should I get pulled over I will hand him my LTC with my license and inform him of the location of my firearm. I tuck mine between the seat and console when driving, not gonna be real hard for him to find on his own staring in the window.
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Old 11-19-2012, 9:17 AM
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^^ - I've got a buddy that just received his permit last week. His permit has the exact same restriction. My Sac County permit doesn't include the second sentence, but I suspect that when I go in for my renewal, I'll leave with the same restriction printed on the face of the permit.
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Old 11-19-2012, 9:25 AM
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Quote:
not gonna be real hard for him to find on his own staring in the window
I don't think that is a good place. It is concealed for purposes of the law, but visible for all to see, including the pickup next to you at the stoplight.

My plan, if I get stopped, is to hand the extra piece of paper to him, say "I also have a permit to show you", and after he digests it, ask "what you like me to do?" I am not required to do so, and it would depend on why I was stopped, I suppose.
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