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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 11-18-2012, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenaline View Post
An officer rang my door bell almost a few minutes after I got home, I peeked out the door and holstered the weapon as he wanted me to come out and talk to him. There was a break in a few houses down and he wanted to know if I have seen anything suspicious. I told him that I remembered a loud crash at 2 am thinking it was my house....cleared my house and perimeter and simply went back to bed thinking I was dreaming or something.

In this particular case where I am assisting an officer, would we have to divulge that we are armed?
Assuming the same facts as above, where the requirement to tell him is on (my)your permit, I would say yes, tell him.

He is on official business, and you are armed. I would have told him before I left the house.

Oddly, if you had not left the house, and didn't have a permit, you could probably still have the gun on you legally. In this case, I'd tell him mainly because I wouldn't want him to get nervous. And, if he wanted me to put it away, I'd probably do that also.
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  #42  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
We have a larger percentage of people in prison than most other countries; not sure exactly where we rank. A significant factor in that is "war" on drugs. The "government will make more crimes felonies in order to get our guns" argument, where's the evidence of such a radical plan?
Personally I have zero evidence to support this plan of attack. Nor did I read it somewhere and just repeat what I heard. I am constantly thinking like the enemy. That is the only way to defeat them. If I were an anti I would go for this plan of attack since it's the easiest. This plan would nearly fly completely under the radar for even most pro gunners. The Obamanation are nearly enslaved to stupidity, so they would have no problems with this since it would make the streets "safer" while they collect their welfare check.

There is no shortage of cynical, narcissistic, arrogant LEO's in Sacramento. I hope none of you that think this new restriction is a reasonable one never have to run into them. I have ran into a few. The fact that they all have standard capacity magazines, an AR type rifle with no bullet button and a shotgun in nearly every vehicle can speak to those who thrive on having power over people. To me, someone who could drive around every single day with that amount of firepower in their work vehicle, then have the nerve to worry about what I'm carrying has something seriously wrong with them.

I guarantee you that I interact, on a daily basis with more people than the vast majority of any individual member of law enforcement. Where i work is not in a good area, and I carry things that people want to have without paying for this includes cold hard cash. To me I believe i am in potential danger constantly. But, if I were to have the same firepower as one squad car then I must be crazy.
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  #43  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenaline View Post
An officer rang my door bell almost a few minutes after I got home, I peeked out the door and holstered the weapon as he wanted me to come out and talk to him. There was a break in a few houses down and he wanted to know if I have seen anything suspicious. I told him that I remembered a loud crash at 2 am thinking it was my house....cleared my house and perimeter and simply went back to bed thinking I was dreaming or something.
Funny you should mention this. Mid 2007 the house I lived in at the time was broken into. My neighbor called the Police while several men were burgalarizing my house. They took lots of things including 15+ firearms. Then they came outside and stole my other vehicle. My neighboor called back when they were stealing my car. I arrived home from work. More than 1 hour had passed since my neighboor called the Police. No police had arrived yet, so I then called the Police and informed them that my house had been burgalarized, car stolen, and many firearms stolen. I also wanted to see why they had not arrived. 2 1/2 hours after I made my call a Community Service Officer showed up. No sidearm.

Out of all the firearms stolen I was able to get one back. No other property of mine was recovered, or so they say.

If I would have had a firearm at that time to carry you bet I would have. I wouldn't have mentioned it to the Police either. I had already applied for a CCW with the Police department prior to this. My Mom was going through a rough divorce with my step dad and he was stalking her. She was staying with me at the time. My application mysteriously disappeared without a trace.

These are only a few examples I have of failed law enforcement in my life. But you can bet your a** they were right there when I went 10mph over the speed limit and have no problems holding me there for an hour just because. Then asking me "why were you in such a hurry" or my favorite is some variation of "save lives not seconds" I always then ask them why they speed with lights and sirens if it only saves seconds.
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  #44  
Old 11-19-2012, 5:41 AM
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Originally Posted by xounlistedxox View Post
Personally I have zero evidence to support this plan of attack. Nor did I read it somewhere and just repeat what I heard. I am constantly thinking like the enemy. That is the only way to defeat them. If I were an anti I would go for this plan of attack since it's the easiest. This plan would nearly fly completely under the radar for even most pro gunners. The Obamanation are nearly enslaved to stupidity, so they would have no problems with this since it would make the streets "safer" while they collect their welfare check.
You've summarized the mindset of your voting bloc quite succinctly--you have no evidence, you claim not to just repeat what you hear but offer no evidence, you seem to take pride in disrespecting the President of the United States, etc. I won't bother getting into a political argument, because I doubt you're interested in empiricism, and anyway, such discussions never change anyone's mind.

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There is no shortage of cynical, narcissistic, arrogant LEO's in Sacramento. I hope none of you that think this new restriction is a reasonable one never have to run into them. I have ran into a few.
Funny, I've had the opposite experience, at least for the last 30-40 years or so. I did run into a few arrogant officers several decades ago. Back in the late 70's and early 80's, my wife and I were stopped several times in what could only have been instances of racial profiling (no citations or anything else tangible came of these encounters, because neither of us had committed a violation of any sort, and the statements and actions of the officers involved left little room for doubt as to their attitude). That was a long time ago, however, and neither of us have had any negative experiences with LEO's since then. As I stated earlier in the thread, on the one instance in which I needed to identify myself as an LTCer, the interaction went very smoothly and the officer thanked me for advising him.
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Last edited by Old_Bald_Guy; 11-19-2012 at 6:37 AM.. Reason: Clarification
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  #45  
Old 11-19-2012, 7:02 AM
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There is no shortage of cynical, narcissistic, arrogant LEO's in Sacramento. I hope none of you that think this new restriction is a reasonable one never have to run into them. I have ran into a few.
Taking you at your word (since to do otherwise would short-circuit the discussion), as your experiences differ from mine, would you be open to at least the possibility that there's something about the attitude you project that steers your interactions in this direction?
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  #46  
Old 11-19-2012, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Taking you at your word (since to do otherwise would short-circuit the discussion), as your experiences differ from mine, would you be open to at least the possibility that there's something about the attitude you project that steers your interactions in this direction?
Possible I suppose, but considering all of my interactions have never lead to a search, detainment, or arrest I would go towards highly unlikely.

| | | | | |
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| | | | | |x
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Above you will see a poorly made visual contruction of one of the last two times I have been pulled over. A total of four traffic lanes. The x's are police cars. The o is the car that was pulled over at the time(not me) I was travelling in the direction of the arrow. I saw the two police cars pulled over all the way to the curb on the right side of the right lane. In front of them was the car that they had pulled over. No one at that time was outside of their vehicles. I slowed down to roughly 10mph(speed limit here is 40mph) and cautiously went around the stopped vehicles.

Immediately after I cautiously passed the pulled over vehicles I see lights & sirens behind me. I pull over to the side thinking they must have somewhere else to go, but that was not the case. They stopped right behind me. The drivers side officer jumps out of his car, draws his sidearm, and approaches my car yelling. He yells at me "why the f**k did you go around that road block back there?" Since all of the cars I had passed were all the way over to the right of the road and there were 3 1/2 lanes plus the middle turn lane I was completely baffled. I asked "what road block? There was no road block."
The officer insisted that I had went around a police road block and he was going to have my driver license revoked for incompetence. He took my license and registration to go run it. Everything was clean, so I had nothing to worry about. He comes back stating that "I should just cut your license up right now" then makes the argument "what if we had been in a shoot out back there" I told him that I definitely wouldn't want to sit there while a shoot out was going on. Etc... either way no ticket, no arrest, no search.

I did have my firearm at my side at this time. There was no point at which I could have fit that in with any sort of positive results from it.

Last edited by xounlistedxox; 11-19-2012 at 10:21 AM.. Reason: attempting to fix the diagram
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  #47  
Old 11-19-2012, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by xounlistedxox View Post
Possible I suppose, but considering all of my interactions have never lead to a search, detainment, or arrest I would go towards highly unlikely.

| | | | | |
| | | |
| | | | | |o
| | | ^ |
| | | | | |x
| | | |
| | | | | |x
| | | |
| | | | | |

Above you will see a poorly made visual contruction of one of the last two times I have been pulled over. A total of four traffic lanes. The x's are police cars. The o is the car that was pulled over at the time(not me) I was travelling in the direction of the arrow. I saw the two police cars pulled over all the way to the curb on the right side of the right lane. In front of them was the car that they had pulled over. No one at that time was outside of their vehicles. I slowed down to roughly 10mph(speed limit here is 40mph) and cautiously went around the stopped vehicles.

Immediately after I cautiously passed the pulled over vehicles I see lights & sirens behind me. I pull over to the side thinking they must have somewhere else to go, but that was not the case. They stopped right behind me. The drivers side officer jumps out of his car, draws his sidearm, and approaches my car yelling. He yells at me "why the f**k did you go around that road block back there?" Since all of the cars I had passed were all the way over to the right of the road and there were 3 1/2 lanes plus the middle turn lane I was completely baffled. I asked "what road block? There was no road block."
The officer insisted that I had went around a police road block and he was going to have my driver license revoked for incompetence. He took my license and registration to go run it. Everything was clean, so I had nothing to worry about. He comes back stating that "I should just cut your license up right now" then makes the argument "what if we had been in a shoot out back there" I told him that I definitely wouldn't want to sit there while a shoot out was going on. Etc... either way no ticket, no arrest, no search.

I did have my firearm at my side at this time. There was no point at which I could have fit that in with any sort of positive results from it.


And this my friends is why the decision to disclose or not to disclose the possession of a firearm should be the responsibility of the permit holder and not a one size must fit all regulation of the sheriff.
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  #48  
Old 11-19-2012, 9:20 PM
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Old Bald Guy hear ya. This is just like the guys that were wearing their guns out to starbucks "just because they could" That got us a long way eh?
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  #49  
Old 11-19-2012, 9:36 PM
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Old Bald Guy hear ya. This is just like the guys that were wearing their guns out to starbucks "just because they could" That got us a long way eh?
Extremely far from it. If you have noticed a theme in my posts it is that I have never been searched, detained, arrested etc. I have suffered harassment at the hands of arrogant LEO's. My point here is that this new policy is ridiculous and unfounded. There is absolutely no reason for it, and I believe it has the potential for problems.

I understand that LEO's have to deal with a lot of the scum of the earth, but that does not mean they have the right to treat everyone else like they are scum.

UOC was not my thing because where I live I don't think there was anywhere I could legally UOC anyway, but I stood strong opposing the new laws regarding UOC, calling, writing letters, emailing, donating etc. If we all do not stand united against the anti's then we will fail. We cannot call ourselves pro gun if we are not prepared to fight for every single right they are trying to make into a priveledge.
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  #50  
Old 11-19-2012, 11:04 PM
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as mentioned previously by Gene, the "fight" is being taken one step at a time. You cant rush from no-issue to constitutional-carry overnight. be thankful you are in a county that allows you to carry. you got your answer from your original post: use your common sense to dictate what is an "official" contact and disclose your ccw as appropriate.

if you are truely passionate about changing the gun's right of this state, you can be as active as you want and still follow all ccw restrictions, the two arent mutually exclusive.

as for your bad encounters with cops, let me tell you something: they can smell a jack-*** from miles away. short of a very small percentage of officers out there, the vast majority will give you the respect if you deserve it. with that said, dont go through life with a hatred for cops, they will see it in you in terms of nervousness and bad attitude and will hasle you for it. next time you get into an "offocial" contact with an officer, give it an "honest" try, things will turn out better.

btw, i dont agree with the restriction on notifying officers about ccw, i still dont tell officers when im pulled over that im carrying (unless i feel it is needed, which i havent yet), however all of that will change when my new permit has the restriction...

Last edited by Sir Stunna Lot; 11-20-2012 at 12:30 AM..
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  #51  
Old 11-20-2012, 5:42 AM
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Old Bald Guy hear ya. This is just like the guys that were wearing their guns out to starbucks "just because they could" That got us a long way eh?

apples & oranges
The guys who were UOC were trying to exercise a right in counties where they could not otherwise exercise this right. This is a form of protest which has a long history in this country and regardless of the outcome they should be commended for their efforts.
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"The 'Spray and Pray' system advances triumphantly in law enforcement. In a recent case in a southwestern city...a police officer, when threatened with a handgun, emptied his 15 shot pistol at his would-be assailant, achieving two peripheral hits. The citizen was charged with brandishing a firearm, but the cop was not charged with anything, lousy shooting not being a diciplinary offense."
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  #52  
Old 11-20-2012, 6:12 AM
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Old Bald Guy hear ya. This is just like the guys that were wearing their guns out to starbucks "just because they could" That got us a long way eh?
Ha ha! Yeah, they proved a point they felt was absolutely vital at the time, and were portrayed in the media as insane wackos. If the Brady high command were to pay people to implement a plan, it couldn't get much better for them than that whole mess.

This issue of fighting every restriction doesn't have the same potential for media exploitation, but it's still counter-productive right now. Sometimes, the bigger question (absolutely no regulation of any kind/slippery slope vs. some lines, somewhere) has to be set aside for practical, strategic reasons. I need to scroll back through and look again, but I don't recall getting a response from the OP about whether he really does favor the no restrictions model--no statutory restrictions or enhanced penalties for felons, for example. As soon as a person admits there's room for some regulation, they've abandoned their slippery slope stance even though they may not be comfortable acknowledging it.

Finally, anyone with several to many negative interactions with law enforcement is either riding a string of incredibly bad outcomes in a statistically possible but not very probable series, or he's dealing with a distinct sub-population of officers who have established and well-documented histories of such behavior (not nearly as likely in Sacramento as it might be in the Florida panhandle for some people--not even close), OR he is projecting something negative that the officers are picking up on. One occasion in which the interaction starts out negative without any verbal or nonverbal contribution by the citizen does not necessarily negate the presence of a perhaps unrecognized pattern of attitude projection by that individual. I'm not saying that's necessarily what's happening in this case, but it's a possibility.

The reality of this situation is that when an LTC holder applies for renewal in Sacramento County, every one of those contacts with law enforcement will need to be listed on the application and will likely lead to a question or two by the interviewer. An excessive number of interactions--positive, negative, or neutral--will lead to more questions. I understand the reason for this.
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Last edited by Old_Bald_Guy; 11-20-2012 at 6:16 AM.. Reason: Formatting, clarification
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  #53  
Old 11-20-2012, 6:28 AM
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Originally Posted by xounlistedxox View Post

If I would have had a firearm at that time to carry you bet I would have. I wouldn't have mentioned it to the Police either.
Even if you had a CCW at the time, it isn't clear to me that you would need to mention it to a community service officer. Do they have typical police arrest powers? Or would they call someone else?
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  #54  
Old 11-20-2012, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Sir Stunna Lot View Post
as mentioned previously by Gene, the "fight" is being taken one step at a time. You cant rush from no-issue to constitutional-carry overnight. be thankful you are in a county that allows you to carry. you got your answer from your original post: use your common sense to dictate what is an "official" contact and disclose your ccw as appropriate.

if you are truely passionate about changing the gun's right of this state, you can be as active as you want and still follow all ccw restrictions, the two arent mutually exclusive.

as for your bad encounters with cops, let me tell you something: they can smell a jack-*** from miles away. short of a very small percentage of officers out there, the vast majority will give you the respect if you deserve it. with that said, dont go through life with a hatred for cops, they will see it in you in terms of nervousness and bad attitude and will hasle you for it. next time you get into an "offocial" contact with an officer, give it an "honest" try, things will turn out better.

btw, i dont agree with the restriction on notifying officers about ccw, i still dont tell officers when im pulled over that im carrying (unless i feel it is needed, which i havent yet), however all of that will change when my new permit has the restriction...
I believe you're reading more than my words say. I don't have a hatred of LEO's. One of my good friends is a CA Highway Patrol in South Sacramento, another one of my good friends is a Retired Undercover Sheriff. I donate to the 11-99 Foundation and all my cars wear KA 4993 plate frames which is on the recommendation of my Highway Patrol friend. The company I work for does not offer any sort of law enforcement discount, but I actively approach LEO's when they're at my work place and inform them that we do not officially offer any discounts, but I will personally see to it that they receive a discount. Same goes for military, firefighters, etc Additionally whenever I see LEO's, Military, Firefighters at restaurants I offer to pay for their meals.

My point as already mentioned above is that this new policy opens the door for problems in my opinion. I have also ran into many officers during "official" contact that were very respectful and in most cases really cool people. The bad apples are few and far between, but they are still out there. Just watch the video link I posted to youtube. My personal example was not as bad, but not really good either. Some LEO's think they can do no wrong because they wear a badge, and guess who else wears a badge? All of their friends who will most likely cover for them in case of a screw up. Knowing and hanging out with LEO's I hear lots of stories that the general public would get in an up roar about.

to old bald guy

I must take the stand of zero restrictions. Felons and violent criminals get firearms if they want them anyway. Might as well at least have them pay some state taxes and fees while they're at it. As soon as there is one restriction there will be more to follow. All they have to do is either wait for the 1 in a million wacko to commit violent gun crimes, or brainwash someone manchurian candidate style and send them out to commin the same type of crime to scare the public into thinking guns are bad and should be restricted. Then only the government will have arms and a complete police state will remain.

Auto accidents in the US cause many more deaths than firearms in our current way of life, but you don't see the gov't trying to ban automobiles. In addition I remember reading that you are more likely to be shot by a member of law enforcement than a crazed gunman, but yet there are no restriction on arms for LEO's
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:56 AM
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Even if you had a CCW at the time, it isn't clear to me that you would need to mention it to a community service officer. Do they have typical police arrest powers? Or would they call someone else?
I do not know the actual powers of a CCO, but they drive around in official police vehicles, so I would assume they have arrest powers just the same.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:14 AM
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I do not know the actual powers of a CCO, but they drive around in official police vehicles, so I would assume they have arrest powers just the same.
CSO's are non-sworn and do not have arrest powers.
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Old 11-20-2012, 2:40 PM
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I must take the stand of zero restrictions. Felons and violent criminals get firearms if they want them anyway. Might as well at least have them pay some state taxes and fees while they're at it. As soon as there is one restriction there will be more to follow.
The point isn't that they can be kept out of the hands of felons; clearly, they can't. The point is that felons can be sent back to prison when they're caught in possession. Slippery slope just doesn't cut it logically, and this is one example. Barring some exceptional developments judicially, you will NEVER see an absolutely regulation-free environment. Never. Do you want to fight for some pie in the sky thing that'll never happen and reduce the chances of meaningful reform because you come off as too extreme to large numbers of people? The anti-gun culture of this state isn't going to be changed that way. Your attitude--well, the public manifestation of attitudes like that--are political red meat to state legislators who stand to benefit by painting with a broad brush.
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Old 11-20-2012, 2:50 PM
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But anyway, I'm wandering too far afield from the original topic. That's pretty simple: You're not gonna change the restriction. There's nothing you can do about it right now. Regardless of your personal opinion, that restriction is here to stay for as long as SSD wants it. It doesn't affect me because I decided from the start to advise in such a situation because it's the logical thing to do. I turned out that I did have occasion to notify an LEO, and it went smoothly.
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