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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-16-2012, 11:19 AM
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Default Audit my idea re: rocket launchers

I'm looking for the legal opinions of the lawyer-minded folks here on Calguns. I came across this thread yesterday: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=1#post9732474

I'd very much like one for the single unashamed reason of the "cool" factor. However, after doing some research into acquiring the ammunition, I realized the supply is very limited and financially prohibitive. So that got me thinking about my own idea:

What I'd like to build is a single shot 12 gauge shotgun with a full length 18" barrel that resides inside a demilled at-4 rocket launcher shell with an overall length >26", with the intention of firing 12 gauge incendiary slugs such as these.

Anything that you guys see as being illegal with this set up?

Also, before I get anyone trying to spread FUD, 12301(a)(1) exempts shotgun ammo from tracer or incendiary prohibitions.
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2012, 11:32 AM
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the only reason you would need such a device is to kill hundreds of people. shame on you. *sarcasm*

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  #3  
Old 11-16-2012, 11:35 AM
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You need a smith with a manufacturing liscense to do some of the work for you, or you would risk creating a "zip gun".

Other then that it should work.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:36 AM
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You can own a launcher all day, just the live rounds that are a can of worms.

IIRC the DoJ DD permit is even shall issue, I've been lusting after an RPG7 and a sub caliber trainer for years.
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by unusedusername View Post
You need a smith with a manufacturing liscense to do some of the work for you, or you would risk creating a "zip gun".

Other then that it should work.
It wouldn't be a zip gun because there is a tax exemption from Section 4181 and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States Code.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:54 AM
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Thats only if you paid a tax on it (if it were registered as NFA, which AOW is possible here in california, but DD is not)

AJAX didn't run into this issue because he made a "not-a-gun" by making something can can only fire emergency signaling flares.

As soon as you make it 12ga you run into all kinds of more complex things.
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"It wasn't a failure of laws," said Amanda Wilcox, who along with her husband, Nick, lobbies for the California chapter of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "I just don't see how our gun laws could have stopped something like that."
-Speaking about the Oikos mass shooting in Oakland.

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With an assault weapon you just hold the trigger back and it goes blup,blup,blup
-Michael Bloomberg confused about the difference between a machine gun and a rifle, ABC News Nightline 12/21/12
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  #7  
Old 11-16-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklover_91 View Post
You can own a launcher all day, just the live rounds that are a can of worms.

IIRC the DoJ DD permit is even shall issue, I've been lusting after an RPG7 and a sub caliber trainer for years.
Here's your RPG7
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/110497...er-w-2fo-scope
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  #8  
Old 11-16-2012, 1:15 PM
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If anyone else is looking, GunPartsCorp/Numrich has the deactivated tubes on their site for $895.

What I'm interested is a live tube, but that's a project for way down the road.
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Old 11-16-2012, 1:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklover_91 View Post
You can own a launcher all day, just the live rounds that are a can of worms.

IIRC the DoJ DD permit is even shall issue, I've been lusting after an RPG7 and a sub caliber trainer for years.
I believe that the ammo would fall within the permit. The thing is, the permit costs more per item in your collection. So, if you have a collection of DDs and DD classified ammo, it's going to cost you a pretty penny every year.
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  #10  
Old 11-16-2012, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
I believe that the ammo would fall within the permit. The thing is, the permit costs more per item in your collection. So, if you have a collection of DDs and DD classified ammo, it's going to cost you a pretty penny every year.
That's why I'm after a sub caliber trainer.

Don't recollect which countries produced them, but there are OEM dummy rockets that conceal a single shot 9mm.
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  #11  
Old 11-16-2012, 2:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRH View Post
Yes your intended ammo is illegal as your interpretation of the law is incorrect. The exemption only covers 12Ga tracer ammo. Any incendiary ammo is still a felony.

(1)Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.
You're right. I got excited and read it too fast. Bummer.
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2012, 2:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklover_91 View Post
You can own a launcher all day, just the live rounds that are a can of worms.

IIRC the DoJ DD permit is even shall issue, I've been lusting after an RPG7 and a sub caliber trainer for years.
Has the DOJ opined they consider the training rounds DDs instead of signaling devices like the ATF considers them?
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2012, 4:36 PM
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It begins.....
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  #14  
Old 11-17-2012, 3:00 AM
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What if you just put an existing single shot shotgun of some sort INSIDE the rocket tube? The tube just becomes an accessory stock
It's not a zip gun- it's a perfectly legal gun inside a fluffed up housing.

The incendiary rounds sound illegal as hell to me though.

-Dave
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  #15  
Old 11-17-2012, 3:17 AM
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Ajax is a bad influence

Soon everyone will be rocking rocket launchers, and CCW'ing M91/30 pistols - with a pinfire machinegun in every gun safe.
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  #16  
Old 11-17-2012, 9:25 AM
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We have some contacts at Saab-Bofors, so I bet they might be able to locate a bunch of used AT4s. If they are not DDs, then I would think they should be easily importable. If they are easy enough to import, then it would not be hard to create a 12 gauge insert and bring this to market as a transferable firearm with an 07/FFL.

It is interesting if the DD permit is "shall issue." That might make it worthwhile to upgrade to an 09/FFL. We have a half dozen legal projects in process already. Now this comes up! It looks like we'll have to do a bit more research!!!

Compliments to Ajax for bringing this up!
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Old 11-17-2012, 9:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killmime1234 View Post

Also, before I get anyone trying to spread FUD, 12301(a)(1) exempts shotgun ammo from tracer or incendiary prohibitions.
where do you see shotgun ammo being exempt from incendiary prohibitions?

(1)Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
It is interesting if the DD permit is "shall issue." That might make it worthwhile to upgrade to an 09/FFL. We have a half dozen legal projects in process already. Now this comes up! It looks like we'll have to do a bit more research!!!
per Jason Davis, that shall issue DD collector's permit does NOT allow for you to use the DD, just to collect it. So, I'm not sure how much demand you'd have for DD's that nobody can actually use in CA.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
per Jason Davis, that shall issue DD collector's permit does NOT allow for you to use the DD, just to collect it. So, I'm not sure how much demand you'd have for DD's that nobody can actually use in CA.
Think of it as cheap life insurance. Why not have (I mean collect) a legal DD in the safe?
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Old 11-17-2012, 1:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killmime1234 View Post
Has the DOJ opined they consider the training rounds DDs instead of signaling devices like the ATF considers them?
I have no idea what the DoJ considers training/marker/chalk rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
We have some contacts at Saab-Bofors, so I bet they might be able to locate a bunch of used AT4s. If they are not DDs, then I would think they should be easily importable. If they are easy enough to import, then it would not be hard to create a 12 gauge insert and bring this to market as a transferable firearm with an 07/FFL.

It is interesting if the DD permit is "shall issue." That might make it worthwhile to upgrade to an 09/FFL. We have a half dozen legal projects in process already. Now this comes up! It looks like we'll have to do a bit more research!!!

Compliments to Ajax for bringing this up!
Franklin, y'all got any idea what the DoJ considers training/marker/chalk rounds?
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Old 11-17-2012, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killmime1234 View Post
I'm looking for the legal opinions of the lawyer-minded folks here on Calguns. I came across this thread yesterday: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=1#post9732474

I'd very much like one for the single unashamed reason of the "cool" factor. However, after doing some research into acquiring the ammunition, I realized the supply is very limited and financially prohibitive. So that got me thinking about my own idea:

What I'd like to build is a single shot 12 gauge shotgun with a full length 18" barrel that resides inside a demilled at-4 rocket launcher shell with an overall length >26", with the intention of firing 12 gauge incendiary slugs such as these.


Anything that you guys see as being illegal with this set up?

Also, before I get anyone trying to spread FUD, 12301(a)(1) exempts shotgun ammo from tracer or incendiary prohibitions.
Sounds to me like an expensive and complicated way to reinvent the flair launcher.
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  #21  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklover_91 View Post
That's why I'm after a sub caliber trainer.

Don't recollect which countries produced them, but there are OEM dummy rockets that conceal a single shot 9mm.
Sweden. The 9mm training round is a subsonic tracer (without the SG exception).

I would think that just getting a used tube would be cheaper than the training model -- you're going to have to reinvent the wheel with the firing mechanism anyway, and mechanically the trainers are crap.

Even if you got the appropriate DD permit, your DA would probably charge you under [whatever 12020(c)(9) turned into] as if it was a camouflaging firearm container. After all, they are OD green. Plus, it would be an operable shotgun concealed inside an inert milsurp novelty.
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Old 11-18-2012, 1:42 AM
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The California Code of regulations actually has a lot of info on the 'collectors' DD permit. In fact, it states that a good cause to be issued this permit is collection of a DD. (Perhaps that causes them to be less subjective with issuing, hence the rumors of shall issues)

Quote:

11 CCR § 4128(c)(4)To establish good cause, an applicant must provide the DOJ with clear and convincing evidence that there is a bona fide market or public necessity for the issuance of a dangerous weapons license or permit and that the applicant can satisfy that need without endangering public safety. Except as provided by Penal Code section 33300, good causes recognized by the DOJ to establish a bona fide necessity for issuance of dangerous weapons licenses or permits include the following:

(4) Possession for the purpose of maintaining a collection of destructive devices as defined in Penal Code section 16460 but such possession shall not be allowed for short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, machineguns or assault weapons.
Also,

Quote:
11 CCR § 4135(a)
(a) Documentation required to determine bona fide necessity for collecting destructive devices includes the following:

(1) A written statement from applicant certifying that he is a bona fide collector of destructive devices. The statement must identify the weapons or ordnance of interest to the collector and an estimate of the intended size of the collection.

(2) A written statement from applicant certifying that the weapon or ordinance will not be fired or discharged.
Although looks like it comes with some serious security requirements and a 4A waiver.
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