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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-16-2012, 6:53 AM
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Default Texas proudly wears an F

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantoni...n-its-gun.html


The San Francisco-based Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence has released a new report that examines gun laws and violence in all 50 states

full report -- http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-laws-mat...-gun-violence/
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2012, 7:17 AM
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  #3  
Old 11-16-2012, 7:22 AM
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Why are these groups so concerned with "gun violence" in particular? Is there no other kind of violence? If guns are somehow magically removed from society we will all be peacable people with no one having any inclination to violence? People won't get all worked up and pick up a baseball bat, hammer or knife, or whatever, to wreak violence on a fellow human once guns are removed?

Rating a state on their gun laws is just so stupid. How about looking at results of the gun laws. is "gun violence" down because of these laws? California has a lot of guns laws. How do we compare to other states in terms of homicides and injuries due to criminal use of a firearm? I know that the state I grew up didn't have much in the way of gun control laws, yet the homicide rates were quite low. But, I guess logic doesn't enter into the equation.
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Old 11-16-2012, 7:25 AM
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I looked at their nice little map. We're #1! I feel much safer now. I guess I can go into any neighborhood in places like Oakland and Richmond and feel safe now. On the other hand, I see the state I grew up in rated an F. Funny that. They still don't have much in the way of "gun violence."

People swallow this stuff whole, don't they? Gun control laws = less "gun violence."
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2012, 7:30 AM
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According to that map, Wyoming and Montana have more gun deaths than CA or NY. What the **** are they smoking!?
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2012, 7:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhead View Post
Why are these groups so concerned with "gun violence" in particular?
They are not concerned with gun violence. They are concerned with eliminating guns and the gun culture from society.

The gun violence blather is just a sales tactic.
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  #7  
Old 11-16-2012, 7:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SparkYZ View Post
According to that map, Wyoming and Montana have more gun deaths than CA or NY. What the **** are they smoking!?
I believe the map relates to gun laws, not deaths due to the use of guns. I'm pretty sure there won't be more deaths in places like Montana, Wyomaing and Idaho (which also got an F) than in California and New York. You're more likely to freeze to death than be shot.
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  #8  
Old 11-16-2012, 7:40 AM
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Default Grading by what standard?

Looks to me like they graded by the amount of gun laws, not the effect of those laws in stopping gun crimes. California got an 'A' at almost 3000 deaths.
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  #9  
Old 11-16-2012, 7:43 AM
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One of the comments from the site said it best.

"Getting a F on gun laws from a San Francisco based group is like getting hate mail from Stalin."
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  #10  
Old 11-16-2012, 7:52 AM
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I strive to one day make Kali have an F too!!!!!

I wonder if they saw the video of the guys in England who did a day light heist of a jewelry store on motorcycles with axes and bats or something. Where there is a will, there is a way!!!!
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  #11  
Old 11-16-2012, 8:26 AM
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The colors on their map does indicate "gun death rates".

I've had more than a few anti-gun friends tell me gun laws do work to reduce violence, then cite some complete BS research from these types of organizations.
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2012, 8:47 AM
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Awww, my state only has a D. I'll make sure to get us to an F!

The funny thing is about these maps they come out with concerning gun laws vs. gun "crime" is that they openly admit that they include lawful uses of firearm for self defense and acquittals in their definition of "gun crime."

We have very low level of firearm regulation in Colorado, so more law abiding citizens have and carry guns which means that we have a higher rate of successful self-defense.
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2012, 8:54 AM
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Quote:
Gun Laws Matter 2012: Understanding the Link Between Weak Laws and Gun Violence
LOL. They say they are grading on the link between Gun Laws and Gun Violence, but they they just grade solely on Gun Laws.
Here is how they grade. Just based on laws.
http://smartgunlaws.org/wp-content/u...ethodology.pdf

FAIL. Every English professor in the country should give them an F.


Maybe we need a US Constitution grading system. California would get an F.
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Last edited by XDshooter; 11-16-2012 at 8:59 AM..
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  #14  
Old 11-16-2012, 8:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra411 View Post
The colors on their map does indicate "gun death rates".

I've had more than a few anti-gun friends tell me gun laws do work to reduce violence, then cite some complete BS research from these types of organizations.
You're right, I think I need new glasses. I read the large caption "grading gun laws" but missed the color coding about grading death rates. I had to look very closely to read it. How do they figure death rates? Deaths per population, including justifiable sefl defense? Beats me. I guess they'd prefer that people not be able to defend theselves if it means using a gun.
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  #15  
Old 11-16-2012, 9:07 AM
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I would really like to see an accurate nationwide chart of successful uses of guns in self-defense compared with each state's laws.
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  #16  
Old 11-16-2012, 9:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhead View Post
I know that the state I grew up didn't have much in the way of gun control laws, yet the homicide rates were quite low. But, I guess logic doesn't enter into the equation.
The state I grew up in was the same way... Oh wait, I grew up in California. I sure miss the way California used to be.
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  #17  
Old 11-16-2012, 9:12 AM
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I think they are counting any gun death.

Even if a citizen kills a BG in self-defense, they count it as a gun death.

I wonder if they count when police kill someone.
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Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
I was on a ride-along, and the officer i was with saw a parked car with occupants. He was going up to ask them to move their car and as soon as he gets to the window the passenger says "I have meth under my seat."

I've never understood the self-confessors....
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  #18  
Old 11-16-2012, 9:14 AM
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I wonder how California would do if they included violent crime rates.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri...-crime-violent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
I was on a ride-along, and the officer i was with saw a parked car with occupants. He was going up to ask them to move their car and as soon as he gets to the window the passenger says "I have meth under my seat."

I've never understood the self-confessors....
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  #19  
Old 11-16-2012, 9:16 AM
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Default A great report card...

Idaho earned an F
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  #20  
Old 11-16-2012, 9:33 AM
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"Because strong gun laws are clearly associated with lower rates of gun violence"

Hmmmm....

Chicago, L.A., Detroit, D.C., etc.
Are there not gun ban's (or something close) in place in these places, I thought there were...?
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  #21  
Old 11-16-2012, 9:41 AM
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WTf how did New Hampshire manage a D? Must work harder at failing...
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  #22  
Old 11-16-2012, 9:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhead View Post
Why are these groups so concerned with "gun violence" in particular? Is there no other kind of violence? If guns are somehow magically removed from society we will all be peacable people with no one having any inclination to violence?
The real source of violence in our society is the failed social experiments from the past 40 years, where it was assumed that "helping people by lowering the bar" would somehow elevate them into higher social status. Instead, for example, free and subsided housing created concentrated ghettos where few can escape the life of poverty and violence and those who can have already left. This is the opposite of what was supposed to happen, but is typical of how politicians with little business experience end up messing up the country.

Now, to admit that the "social engineering" by the left has failed would be akin to cutting the branch one is sitting on, since large part of their support comes from those areas. Blaming guns provides two benefits: (1) it deflects the blame from the real problem by introducing an "object of hate"; (2) it indirectly blames the right for the violence since 2A is defended mostly by the right, thus solidifying political support from the crime ridden areas.

That's a lot of benefits for pushing the agenda "guns are bad, m'kay."
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  #23  
Old 11-16-2012, 10:09 AM
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If you lay the Law Center's map: http://smartgunlaws.org/wp-content/u...king_FINAL.jpg
Over this one: http://chartsbin.com/view/1206
It's pretty easy to see where their conclusions aren't in sync.
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  #24  
Old 11-16-2012, 10:10 AM
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That moment when all 50 states get an F.
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  #25  
Old 11-16-2012, 10:22 AM
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Lol California is only an A-! As if there is still "room for improvement" here? Take away ALL the guns. Then you get an A+
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  #26  
Old 11-16-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhead View Post
Why are these groups so concerned with "gun violence" in particular? Is there no other kind of violence? If guns are somehow magically removed from society we will all be peacable people with no one having any inclination to violence? People won't get all worked up and pick up a baseball bat, hammer or knife, or whatever, to wreak violence on a fellow human once guns are removed?
Rating a state on their gun laws is just so stupid. How about looking at results of the gun laws. is "gun violence" down because of these laws? California has a lot of guns laws. How do we compare to other states in terms of homicides and injuries due to criminal use of a firearm? I know that the state I grew up didn't have much in the way of gun control laws, yet the homicide rates were quite low. But, I guess logic doesn't enter into the equation.
They would eventually outlaw all those items too. The good news is that there is an unlimited supply of rocks on terra firma.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:19 PM
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Well done Texas! All states should get an F.
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  #28  
Old 11-16-2012, 12:23 PM
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There is no such thing as gun violence.
Guns don't commit violence. Criminals do.
They need to quit blaming inanimate objects but
that would mean they were actually trying to
find the reasons for violence. Not gonna happen.
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  #29  
Old 11-16-2012, 12:26 PM
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Awww, my state only has a D.
I was disappointed in that as well...
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  #30  
Old 11-16-2012, 1:03 PM
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I don't know where they got their numbers but they lied through their teeth.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri...mber-homicides

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri...e-gun-violence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio...tates_by_state
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  #31  
Old 11-16-2012, 2:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vantec08 View Post
I would really like to see an accurate nationwide chart of successful uses of guns in self-defense compared with each state's laws.
First we'd have to get a definition of "successful uses of guns in self-defense" that most people would accept.

Since my definition would include cases where no shots were fired, then we'd have to figure out how to get people to honestly and consistently report those.

If you haven't already read it, look at Gary Kleck's work - his 1995 article on DGU - http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/kleckandgertz1.htm - started a lot of the discussion.

I bought a hardcopy of that journal back then, I thought it was so important.
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Old 11-16-2012, 2:13 PM
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In fact, the Lone Star State was one of 21 states that received an F in the report.
Let me guess... The other 21 states that received the “F” grade were free states while states like NJ/NY/IL/CA/HI got “A”s

Someone should release a report on Bill of Right Freedoms with CA/et al getting “F”s and places like TX, LA, et al getting A’s
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...
Maybe we need a US Constitution grading system. California would get an F.
Beat me too it.
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  #33  
Old 11-16-2012, 2:22 PM
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"F".....you mean like in "Freedom"?
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  #34  
Old 11-16-2012, 3:01 PM
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I love the link that describes their scoring methodology. It's like an anti's wet drem list.... or the agenda for the new California super majority.
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Old 11-16-2012, 5:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz Liszt View Post
One of the comments from the site said it best.

"Getting a F on gun laws from a San Francisco based group is like getting hate mail from Stalin."
Actually, I'd be less opposed to hate mail from Stalin than I would be with ANY contact from LCPGV/Brady Bunch/et. al.
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Old 11-16-2012, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
First we'd have to get a definition of "successful uses of guns in self-defense" that most people would accept.

Since my definition would include cases where no shots were fired, then we'd have to figure out how to get people to honestly and consistently report those.

If you haven't already read it, look at Gary Kleck's work - his 1995 article on DGU - http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/kleckandgertz1.htm - started a lot of the discussion.

I bought a hardcopy of that journal back then, I thought it was so important.
We face a disadvantage against the Disarmament Lobby on that topic, just because quantifying defensive gun uses where an attack was prevented is nearly impossible. Even determining legitimate cases of self defense is difficult due to how some legal areas classify incidents. If there's a No-Bill its easy enough to determine, but sometimes the DA just declines to file charges and that's the end of it. Was incident X a case of self defense? Who knows, it never went to court.

But crimes with guns, well, those are downright childs play to locate and post for all the world to see , even if no actual criminal attack happened with a firearm. DEA raids a crack den and finds an SBR next to the drugs? BAM! GUN CRIME!

If the truth about self defense with firearms were told on the airwaves, we'd have a "national conversation on gun laws" alright.........


BTW ,South Dakota is #1 in the USA for Lax Gun Laws! Funny, I have yet to see a kid get shot by gang crossfire on the news. In point of fact, the only time a gun got used in anger at all in the past 90 days in this state is when someone tried to run over a State LEO , who thus understandably drew his weapon.
Yup, this place is just a cesspool of gun violence and death, where just one shooting a year is considered ultra violent. I should move to someplace safer like Chicago.
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Last edited by SilverTauron; 11-16-2012 at 6:35 PM..
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  #37  
Old 11-16-2012, 6:35 PM
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I love how they gave California an A when we have tons and tons of gun violence. What planet are these morons on anyways?
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Old 11-16-2012, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
I love how they gave California an A when we have tons and tons of gun violence. What planet are these morons on anyways?
Its a conspiracy. The NRA's bought out all the media outlets you see, so all the violent crime that supposedly happens in Chicago , LA, Baltimore, D.C., and NYC actually happens in Sioux Falls South Dakota, Gilette Wyoming, and Helena Montana.
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Old 11-17-2012, 3:33 AM
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The premise only work for them because they ignore intent. Suicides, by far, account for the the largest number of 'gun deaths' and suicide by firearm is most frequent among older white rural male. You strip suicides out of this map and you get a dramatically different result.

Just to put a finer point on it, most of the possible 210 available points in their score card are utterly irrelevant to suicide.
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Old 11-17-2012, 4:12 AM
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It's cool, I'll take an F in Idaho. Since I moved up here, I've never felt more safe in my life.
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