Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Rimfire Firearms
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-15-2012, 4:23 PM
Lexington-1 Lexington-1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 100
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Lead vs Copper Jacket

Gent

I'm new to rimfire.

I went to purchase my first box of ammo. I asked the store owner his recommendation. He said I should avoid lead ammo and buy copper jacket instead. He said that lead tends to leave residue in your barrel. Eventually the build up will start to effect accuracy. Even with cleaning, he said you can never completely get rid of the lead in the rifling groves and that I would save myself a lot of headaches down the road by sticking to copper jackets?

I'd like to hear your opinion as to weather this is good advice or not.

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-15-2012, 5:01 PM
Izzy43's Avatar
Izzy43 Izzy43 is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Idyllwild, Ca (in the snow)
Posts: 2,660
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexington-1 View Post
Gent

I'm new to rimfire.

I went to purchase my first box of ammo. I asked the store owner his recommendation. He said I should avoid lead ammo and buy copper jacket instead. He said that lead tends to leave residue in your barrel. Eventually the build up will start to effect accuracy. Even with cleaning, he said you can never completely get rid of the lead in the rifling groves and that I would save myself a lot of headaches down the road by sticking to copper jackets?

I'd like to hear your opinion as to weather this is good advice or not.

Thanks
Assuming you are talking about .22lr there is no such thing as a copper jacketed .22lr round. All are lubricated in some fashion one of which is a copper wash (chemical process) that serves as a cheap lubricant. Under the lube is lead. All and I mean all match grade .22lr ammo has a lead bullet lubed by some type of wax, or tallow or some proprietary mixture of different substances. None are copper washed. I have shot over 40,000 rounds of lead bullets thru various rifles and pistolas with only one leading problem. That was when I shot some 22lr rounds in the cylinder meant for .22Magnums in my revolver. Dumb mistake on my part but it really leaded up the cylinder and barrel.

In short I think the store owner who you spoke to is weak on his information about .22lr ammo. Nearly all bulk ammo is copper washed and the reason for that is its a cheap way to apply a lubricant to the bullet. However I have read where some semi-auto rifles and pistols prefer the copper washed bullets as they do not gum up the actions as quickly as the lubed lead bullets.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-15-2012, 7:03 PM
bloodhawke83's Avatar
bloodhawke83 bloodhawke83 is offline
┬──┬ \_(ツ)
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: (╯o)╯︵ ┻━┻
Posts: 23,117
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

So its all a lie?



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
__________________
hold the door, hold the door, hold the door.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Anyone not voting Brown is putting other things above gun rights.
Whitman + Cooley or Harris = a rash of gun control California has never seen the likes of.
-Gene
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
If you're not voting why are you even opining?
Brown has a track record of not bowing to Dem pressure on guns.
-Gene
Quote:
Originally Posted by fighterpilot562 View Post
Well if it makes you feel better, I also support the KKK, NeoNazis, WestBoro, Skins, and any other groups right to assemble

Last edited by bloodhawke83; 01-20-2016 at 1:52 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-15-2012, 7:25 PM
Izzy43's Avatar
Izzy43 Izzy43 is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Idyllwild, Ca (in the snow)
Posts: 2,660
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodhawke83 View Post
So its all a lie?



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Are you asking me? If you are, copper plated is not "copper jacketed". Plating is a chemical process, copper jacketed is a thin piece of copper molded around the lead bullet..22WMR, .17HMR and the majority of center fire ammunition is copper jacketed. Copper jacketing is primarily done due to the velocity of the bullet to prevent heat generated in the barrel due to the speed to prevent the lead from melting and quickly leading the barrel. Hope that clears it up.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-15-2012, 7:36 PM
Chaos47's Avatar
Chaos47 Chaos47 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 6,380
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

This comes up all the time.

"Lead" ones are not just straight up lead they are covered with wax.
99% of all match grade 22LR ammo is going to be wax coated not plated rounds.
Such as eley, you know the stuff they shoot in the Olympics thru their super accurate super expensive rifles. If wax is good enough for them its good enough for you.

IMO wax coated bullets leave less residue then plated.
But it is a highly touted myth that they are worse.

Izzy is right, there is no jacketed 22LR ammo, they are either plated or "washed" which pretty much means painted on...

All that said I run 525 Blazer Value Packs thru my 22LRs pretty much exclusively. (Other then match ammo)
__________________
The above is not legal advice. It is just something you read from some dude on the internet. It does not reflect the opinion of Calguns.net. If it seems rude it was probably meant to read sarcastically.

Marlin 795 MEGATHREAD Part Deuce
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-15-2012, 7:56 PM
ejhc11's Avatar
ejhc11 ejhc11 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Orange County
Posts: 1,075
iTrader: 98 / 100%
Default

The CMMG rimfire uppers are recommended by Shadow65 to run plated ammo to minimize the wax buildup in the action.

Otherwise most ammo will work fine, you only need to find out what works best in your firearm since each one shoots a little different.

I have guns that like the dreaded Remington Gold Bullets, shoots accurately and reliably while others prefer the Blazers and others Winchesters or Federals and of course all like CCI ammo, SV HV etc...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-15-2012, 10:57 PM
SB1964's Avatar
SB1964 SB1964 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 5,063
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Lex, Good advice given. Keep your Gun Clean & simply try different Brands & types of Ammo. Hollow Point vs Solid etc. Everyone with .22 experience will tell you what their Gun shoots best, with MATCH Shooters (generally) being very Particular, or more so anyway...

I like the Federal Bulk 38-40 Grain Hollow Points, or American Eagle (same thing)

GO HAVE SOME FUN!!!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-16-2012, 12:10 AM
Safety1st Safety1st is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 591
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Just get a .22 WMR. Copper jacket and more energy at 100yds than the hottest .22lr at the muzzle! Win win.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-16-2012, 3:13 AM
Lexington-1 Lexington-1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 100
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks for the clarification gents!

When he mention copper I automatically assumed he mean copper jacket instead of copper plated. I understand the difference now.

Izzy43 said: However I have read where some semi-auto rifles and pistols prefer the copper washed bullets as they do not gum up the actions as quickly as the lubed lead bullets.

Izzy, I think this may be the reason why he said I should use copper since I have a semi-auto.

Izzy43said: That was when I shot some 22lr rounds in the cylinder meant for .22Magnums in my revolver. Dumb mistake on my part but it really leaded up the cylinder and barrel.

Izzy, the guy at the shop said the very same thing to me. That some guy brought his revolver in and that it got all gummed up from using lead. Doubt it was you though. Maybe because of that experience with his customer he probably figured it was best to stay away from wax lead and just use the copper plated .22
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-16-2012, 6:12 AM
Mail Clerk Mail Clerk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,087
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexington-1 View Post
Gent

I'm new to rimfire.

I went to purchase my first box of ammo. I asked the store owner his recommendation. He said I should avoid lead ammo and buy copper jacket instead. He said that lead tends to leave residue in your barrel. Eventually the build up will start to effect accuracy. Even with cleaning, he said you can never completely get rid of the lead in the rifling groves and that I would save myself a lot of headaches down the road by sticking to copper jackets?

I'd like to hear your opinion as to weather this is good advice or not.

Thanks
Lexington,

Wether it's lead or copper coated bullets they all foul your bore so sooner or later it's actually the muzzle of your barrel that determines bullet accuracy. In reality the bore doesn't need cleaning typically because of this. I actually only clean my bore twice per year and only pay attention to making sure the chamber and muzzle is clear of excess lead build up everytime I return home.
The bore in reality plays a small part in barrel accuracy and so based on other forums I usuall just runs a couple wet patches through and the brush in and out a couple times and dry it.

Mail Clerk
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-16-2012, 12:08 PM
mkane's Avatar
mkane mkane is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 441
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Not sure about the bore not being a contributor to accuracy. We have a Rock Creek 5 groove, Shilen 4 grove, Benchmark 2 groo& Shilen Octagon. They all shoot different.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-16-2012, 1:45 PM
fredridge fredridge is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: San Gabriel Valley/East Los Angeles
Posts: 1,087
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

Something I found out recently is that our local indoor range requires the plated.

They no longer allow plain lead
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-16-2012, 2:20 PM
Lifeon2whls's Avatar
Lifeon2whls Lifeon2whls is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Reseda
Posts: 1,768
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredridge View Post
Something I found out recently is that our local indoor range requires the plated.

They no longer allow plain lead
I don't know why...if you shoot a plated round and are able to capture it in water/balistics gel/etc...you'd see that most of the plating is gone by the time it makes it to the target. When the round splashes on the backstop, at that point there is no difference between plated or non plated...you pretty much have the same amount of lead ended up in the range. That said, I've been able to take my finger nail and scrape off the plating on some rounds.

I never use them and never have a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-16-2012, 2:26 PM
fredridge fredridge is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: San Gabriel Valley/East Los Angeles
Posts: 1,087
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

Don't k ow either. Jus their rule.

Maybe city rule or something.

I just recently learned of a range in Commerce that closed partially because of elevated leaf levels in neighboring houses
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-16-2012, 8:14 PM
MyOdessa's Avatar
MyOdessa MyOdessa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Nor. Cal.
Posts: 814
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

For high velocity .22 I prefer copper washed ones, for standard velocity I prefer lead .22.

I noticed that if I use high velocity lead .22, they leave too much lead in the barrel, while standard velocity ammo does not. I suspect that copper wash allows higher melting point, thus barrel does not lead as much with high velocity .22. Without any experimentation, just my guess, velocity is the key factor in lead vs. copper wash .22 bullets. All high quality .22 LR ammo used in Olympic competition are standard velocity.
__________________
BAN LIBERALS, NOT GUNS
The Government has no right to know I have nothing to hide.

WTB:
CZ 550 Full Stock 6.5X55 in excellent condition.
Dan Wesson Model 722 22 LR preferably Monson manufacture.
Dan Wesson Model 741 41 Magnum preferably Monson manufacture.
S&W 657 .41 Magnum 4" barrel prefer pre-lock.
S&W 627 357 Mag 4" barrel prefer pre-lock.
Ruger SP101 3" 9mm Para in excellent condition.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-16-2012, 9:04 PM
Merc1138 Merc1138 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,468
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredridge View Post
Don't k ow either. Jus their rule.

Maybe city rule or something.

I just recently learned of a range in Commerce that closed partially because of elevated leaf levels in neighboring houses
OMG, they closed the range just because it's fall and leaves started falling off trees and blowing around?





Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-17-2012, 5:24 AM
shadow65's Avatar
shadow65 shadow65 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 1,300
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

For plinking I like Winchester or Fed copper was bulk pack.
Mini Mags burn cleaner and generally have better accuracy, depending on your barrel.

I shoot a lot of Wolf MT for accuracy.

Bare lead bullets will build up gunk on the ramp quicker than copper wash in my findings. When you are shooting hundreds of rounds, it does make a difference.

Remington subs are so bad that I can gum up and AR .22 action in one mag.
Dirty rounds also contribute to the problem.

Something else to keep in mind with the CMMG's is 36 gr. HP generally runs better than 40 gr. solids.

Dave N
__________________
Independent Field Tester/Research and Developement

Better to die for something than live for nothing
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-17-2012, 6:43 AM
donw's Avatar
donw donw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: between temecula and palm springs
Posts: 1,691
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

key factor is cleaning the action and chamber of residual lubricant.

i use a nylon bore brush, Hoppes #9 and a drill motor to clean the chamber.

the nylon brush does not wear the chamber and the Hoppes cleans the lube from it, thoroughly; this insures reliable feeding, extraction of the spent cartridge case, and lessens chances of FTF from residue building up to cushion the firing pin strike.
__________________
NRA life member, US Army Veteran

i am a legend in my own mind...

we are told not to judge muslims by what a few do...yet, the NRA membership and firearms owners are ALL considered as radical...

"The second amendment ain't about your deer rifle..."
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-20-2012, 1:48 PM
CharlesV CharlesV is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: So Cal, Riverside County, Corona
Posts: 548
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Don, not so fast! Your post reminded me of a related problem.

Inconsistent cartridge diameters seriously effect my shooting and cause failures to load and eject.

I shoot common .22s like Marlin and Ruger which seem to shoot anything. Last week i took out my Beretta .22 and Blazer bulk ammo and the gun failed on each and every round, yet ive used that ammo with success other times.

I didnt want to go back for ammo so i stayed out and hand-fed the Beretta and each round fired fine. BUT....i noticed that each round fed into the breech had a very different case diameter. Some rounds fit loosely, some ok, many had such a tight fit they either had to be forced in or rejected outright. A too-tight-fit assures failures, even for the cleanest gun in the world.

With CCI, the cyling is fine, meaning to me that there is much higher consistency and precision in cartridge-making, nevermind the grains or powder. With CCI i never had to consider this problem because i never hand-fed each cartridge wherein i would see the differences in diameter.

Most people do not hand-feed a semi-auto, they rely on the internal systems so that they never have to see what i saw. The FTFs, FTEs continue and people dont know exactly why. In other words, most guns would shoot more brands/models of ammo if all the MFRs had very precise casings--which I can see they dont. Cartridges look the same but they arent.
__________________
Slim River Carry Slings for Henry AR-7
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-21-2012, 7:27 AM
Izzy43's Avatar
Izzy43 Izzy43 is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Idyllwild, Ca (in the snow)
Posts: 2,660
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesV View Post
Don, not so fast! Your post reminded me of a related problem.

Inconsistent cartridge diameters seriously effect my shooting and cause failures to load and eject.

I shoot common .22s like Marlin and Ruger which seem to shoot anything. Last week i took out my Beretta .22 and Blazer bulk ammo and the gun failed on each and every round, yet ive used that ammo with success other times.

I didnt want to go back for ammo so i stayed out and hand-fed the Beretta and each round fired fine. BUT....i noticed that each round fed into the breech had a very different case diameter. Some rounds fit loosely, some ok, many had such a tight fit they either had to be forced in or rejected outright. A too-tight-fit assures failures, even for the cleanest gun in the world.

With CCI, the cyling is fine, meaning to me that there is much higher consistency and precision in cartridge-making, nevermind the grains or powder. With CCI i never had to consider this problem because i never hand-fed each cartridge wherein i would see the differences in diameter.

Most people do not hand-feed a semi-auto, they rely on the internal systems so that they never have to see what i saw. The FTFs, FTEs continue and people dont know exactly why. In other words, most guns would shoot more brands/models of ammo if all the MFRs had very precise casings--which I can see they dont. Cartridges look the same but they arent.
That's one reason that bulk ammo is $.03-.06 round, little of any quality control. Step up to match level ammo and fewer problems. Bottom line we get what we pay for.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-21-2012, 9:18 AM
bohoki's Avatar
bohoki bohoki is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: 95492
Posts: 17,994
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

my cmmg conversion seems to work best with cci blazer

out of the bulk packed 500+- round loose packs

for reliablility i rate them

cci blazer
winchester
federal
remington
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 7:34 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.