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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-12-2012, 9:00 PM
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Default Gifting NRA membership to a liberal

An old friend of mine, who is a kool-aid drinking progressive, posted a link online to their blog, with a post asking for clarity on why people thought the 2nd amendment applied to individuals when it clearly is about militias, and why anyone would possibly be against "common sense" gun control laws.

Yeah, I took the bait. I spent a good part of Saturday morning researching links to articles, facts, and details about how (in)effective the 1994 AWB was, detailed what exactly the AWB actually banned, and related the absurdity of banning ergonomic features on firearms.

Instead of the asked for discussion, or even questions or comments about what I related, I was told, quite bluntly, that I proved nothing and since guns only exist to kill people, anyone who owns one must be planning to kill someone, and they hoped they never angered me.

Yeah, I know. What did I really expect? I was a bit surprised that someone who has know me for 20 odd years would accuse me of being a psychopath, but I guess that is the only thing that fit in with their belief system.

Anyway, I was thinking if this person really wanted a glimpse of what gun owners thought, maybe I should gift them a one year NRA membership, along with the print copy of American Rifleman.

Maybe, just maybe, they will read an article or two before they toss it in the recycling bin, and maybe, just maybe, SOMETHING will sink in.

To harsh? A good way to give to the NRA while pissing off a liberal? Any other suggestions on how to start de-programming friends who are drinking the Brady Bunch Kool-aid?

On a brighter note, I took a buddy to the range for his first time shooting the previous Saturday, and he had a great time, but was a little sore from firing my Mauser. Even better news is he wants to go again.
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Old 11-12-2012, 9:05 PM
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The NRA is not going to convince anyone. They spew so much sensationalist bull**** it's just going to make you look worse. Maybe it's time to show him that there are millions of recreational shooters that are responsible and will ultimately never harm anyone. He probably won't listen to logic, but you could show him what a militia meant back when the 2A was written.
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Old 11-12-2012, 9:11 PM
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That was the stuff I sent. Nice, rational, fact laden material.
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Old 11-12-2012, 9:21 PM
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The good thing is that you don't have to argue the "militia/collective" argument anymore. Point to Heller and McDonald and say that the issue has been settled.

If they want to go against the Supreme Court, point out that this is twice as many rulings as there are on abortion (Roe v. Wade), so that to question the *individual* aspect of the 2A is akin to trying to ban abortion *and* claim the Earth is flat.

This is a much better route than to do the actual research which is contained in Heller and then have to argue it all over again. A court precedent is a court precedent, and those who don't believe it might as well go to court to claim that they don't have to pay taxes.

See how he ends up denying the simple judicial facts.
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Old 11-12-2012, 9:26 PM
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The only way to win over a liberal is with emotion, not logic. Use a bunch of liberal "buzzwords." Remind them that all the liberal politicians have armed security, and the 99% can't afford this luxury of "the rich." Remind them that Martin Luther King, Jr. applied for CCW, but was denied because of his race. Remind them that Native Americans were slaughtered because they lacked efficient weaponry to defend their land.
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Old 11-12-2012, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jbl_1967 View Post
Anyway, I was thinking if this person really wanted a glimpse of what gun owners thought, maybe I should gift them a one year NRA membership, along with the print copy of American Rifleman.
I like the way you think. And it won't be just a one time deal. As you're probably aware she will be getting junk mail from the NRA for at least a year and a half.
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2012, 1:40 AM
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<~Democrat.....also an NRA member... let me at this person!!! lol I will pretend I didn't see the other negative comments about "liberals" blah, blah... but seriously, I can't stand it when people cry about guns killing people... more cars kill people than guns... sorry I do not plan on walking anywhere anytime soon, nor giving up my right to own many guns... Its just that in our gun community there is so much finger pointing from folks from different political parties it makes gun owners look like a bunch of foaming at the mouth angry folks... and lets face it, some are... but thats not the guns fault, nor am I saying these angry people are senseless killers etc... they have hearts and brains (even if some can't find them) they have families, loved ones etc... just because we see things differently on some things don't make it bad... I love to educate scary people about guns.. some you just can't win over regardless of whats said... some peoples upbringing and fears is just to much for them to put on big boy pants and overcome these silly misconceptions... but not everyone can do that. I can accept that... as for me, my kids know all about guns, all about gun safety and all about the reasons why its important to own guns... And all my boys are under the age of 10...
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Old 11-13-2012, 2:14 AM
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I think the NRA is important and I am a member but I would agree that it will do nothing to convince a liberal.

What I find often helps people open up is the realization that gun owners aren't necessarily their cliche good ol' boy type (like me: artsy dude, etc.). I've had a number of discussions and I fare best by keeping them about ideology (rather then going down the "what type of guns are ok" rabbit hole) and why I think as someone who was born and raised in a dictatorship the 2nd Amendment is not just important but the right of all rights. I then bring it around to personal responsibility and sprinkle a little of this in there which so far nobody dared to disagree with and usually that allows me to occupy the moral high ground pretty quickly.
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Old 11-13-2012, 2:23 AM
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Forget the NRA membership. Buy them admission to a CGF dinner sometime.

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  #10  
Old 11-13-2012, 4:05 AM
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ask your friend whether he believes self-defense is a fundamental human right.
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Old 11-13-2012, 4:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilro View Post
The only way to win over a liberal is with emotion, not logic. Use a bunch of liberal "buzzwords." Remind them that all the liberal politicians have armed security, and the 99% can't afford this luxury of "the rich."
They will say it is necessary to have them protected in case some 'right wing whacko' tries to hurt them. Then they will point to the Gabby Giffords shooting (while conveniently ignoring the tragic murder of a little girl in the same instance) and call you insensitive.


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Remind them that Martin Luther King, Jr. applied for CCW, but was denied because of his race.
They will say it was a long time ago, and that Democrats were 'different' then; Republicans and all gun enthusiasts are now mostly (or all) Confederate Tea Bagger racist monsters who want to kick out immigrants and bomb abortion clinics.


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Remind them that Native Americans were slaughtered because they lacked efficient weaponry to defend their land.
This one's easy. Likely feeling like a cornered rat after having endured such a tongue lashing, they will try to change the subject or try to tell you that what you're saying is completely false according to one of their 'professor friends'.
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  #12  
Old 11-13-2012, 6:40 AM
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Although your intentions are good, you'll likely push them away.

My mother in law purchased a subscription for my family to the Sierra Club magazine.
Pretty pictures and all but I'm not drinking the cool-aid.

I believe the recognition of the 2a really needs to come from within - and that comes with time and maturity.
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Old 11-13-2012, 7:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jbl_1967 View Post
That was the stuff I sent. Nice, rational, fact laden material.
It's been my experience that when the libtards mind is made up they cannot be confused with facts.

Guns are bad, guns kill people, people who have guns are bad unless they are agents of the government.
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Old 11-13-2012, 8:02 AM
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Sorry to say, but they likely don't have the mental capacity to process logic behind guns, 2A, cival/god given rights, etc. you won't be able to convince them of anything other than the imotional reasoning that has been ingrained in the mind.
Don't cast your pearls before swine.
Get them the NRA membership though, just to piss them off. Top it off by making a small donation in there name, haha.
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Old 11-13-2012, 8:04 AM
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ask your friend whether he believes self-defense is a fundamental human right.
Most of them believe that the police will protect them. Therefore there is no need for them to protect themselves.
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Old 11-13-2012, 8:25 AM
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If he is adament that the 2nd A is only about militias, carefully remind him that HE is of the American militia, as are all able bodied adults. Then make sure he knows that he needs to buy a gun soon, as all militia members must provide their own arms to muster
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Old 11-13-2012, 8:34 AM
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Originally Posted by nssurge View Post
The NRA is not going to convince anyone. They spew so much sensationalist bull**** it's just going to make you look worse. Maybe it's time to show him that there are millions of recreational shooters that are responsible and will ultimately never harm anyone.
Maybe it's time to take him to the range.

NRA membership won't hurt. But, yeah, the rhetoric is directed at the fund-raising base and can be pretty off-putting to more progressive-minded people.
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Old 11-13-2012, 8:48 AM
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Good friend and I parted ways back when the Federal AWB ban was being debated. We both shot together alot and he owned many handguns and an UZI semi-auto. One evening with our wives present we got into what I thought would be a rational discussion about the AWB Bill. I wanted to know why his party wanted to ban AR-types and maybe we could compromise or agree to disagree. Evidently my calm arguments about self-defense and having an AR just in case the ***** hit the fan really enflamed he and his wife (also a shooter). They made the typical argument that a proliferation of guns had brought our country to the brink and we were the most murderous country in the world. To this I couldn't help myself, I was so incredulous at their dramatics I stated the famous "Guns don't kill people, People kill people". Their response was vehement and had such hatred and full of invective my wife began to cry. Words which forever parted us.

I have noticed that gungrabbers will always resort to these tactics when debated. Save your money and give the membership to a teenager. They're the future.
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Old 11-13-2012, 9:09 AM
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Save your money and give the membership to a teenager. They're the future.
Couldn't agree more. Here's an excerpt from a fantastic article I read on the subject of the hearts and minds of our youth. I suggest you read the whole thing, here:

One of the most telling statistics in last week's election is that Republican Mitt Romney won among voters aged 35 or older. If you are old enough to have learned about the U.S.S.R. as an enemy, and to remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, chances are that you voted to unseat Obama. If you were born or grew up in the post-Cold War era, when communism was no longer a geopolitical threat, you are far more likely to have voted to re-elect him.

Children today are not taught that communism was evil, a system that not only killed millions but corrupted almost everyone forced to live under it. Instead they are taught that it was a fine idea that failed in its implementation, which ought to have been democratic. They know more about McCarthyism than the Stalinist show trials, and leave school convinced that it is more morally repugnant to call someone a communist than actually to be one.

At colleges and universities, students are assigned the works of Marx and his acolytes over and over again, while the works of Locke, Burke, Hayek, and Tocqueville are largely neglected. One of the most popular assignments is Marx's On the Jewish Question, in which he outlines his views of the state, civil society, and history. Students are encouraged to ignore the crude antisemitism of the essay--or to regard it as a minor, non-essential flaw.

We know that our welfare state is failing, and that we can no longer pay for it. But we are terrified of trying the alternative, which Obama describes to us as a system in which "you're on your own." And so we vote for more government as the answer to bad government. We expand spending on everything except defense, the first and most legitimate function of government. We forget that the Eastern bloc collapsed under the weight of its debts.

When we imagine political evil, we think of the SS officer who haunts our Holocaust memorials. We think of the Taliban insurgent who broadcasts threats from a cave and shoots schoolgirls point blank and in plain sight. The left uses these figures to label its political enemies: fiscal conservatives were likened to Hitler in Wisconsin for taking on bloated public sector unions; social conservatives are called Taliban on the nation's editorial pages.

But call Obama a socialist--even though his policies would be called socialist in most other western democracies, even though he himself once joined, and sought the endorsement of, a socialist political party--and you will be marginalized. Our present political discourse lacks the figure of the Soviet commissar as the embodiment of an absolute evil, one whose name can be invoked to set a boundary around the excesses of far-left-wing policies.

And so our media and our popular culture enthusiastically embraces the revolutionary mobs of Occupy Wall Street as if they represented something new and idealistic, rather than the misguided outburst of a youth culture rebelling with the few words in its political vocabulary, steered behind the scenes by a hard activist core from their parents' generation. The virtues of self-reliance, industry and frugality are eclipsed by collectivist visions.


Please read the rest, it's well worth it and (to me) right on point. I should take pictures of some of my old books from my college years ('98-'02)... TRULY "liberal" arts. And this is a major university in northern Florida (if you look at the electoral map, a lone blue county in a sea of red). Books like Russian Formalist Criticism, Marxist Theory... the universities are rotten from the inside out... it's essentially a brainwashing.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:07 AM
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I wouldn't buy any anti an NRA membership, unless there's some way to do it such that the NRA has the wrong address / email for the member in question. Way too much spam / junk mail...you're going to totally turn them off and prove to them that they are correct, and all firearms owners are tin-foil hat wearing lunatics.

Take them to the range. One look around at all the normal people who are having fun shooting is worth [every POS ever written by the NRA].
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by NoJoke View Post
Although your intentions are good, you'll likely push them away.

My mother in law purchased a subscription for my family to the Sierra Club magazine.
Pretty pictures and all but I'm not drinking the cool-aid.

I believe the recognition of the 2a really needs to come from within - and that comes with time and maturity.
Whenever someone orders me a subscription to a magazine that goes against my basic point of view on life, I order them a subscription to a magazine that they might find offensive.

Something along the lines of NAMBLA monthly.

I also like to post their e-mail addresses/phone numbers to whatever "hook-up" websites I can find that specialize in those areas they find particularly offensive.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:15 PM
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The good thing is that you don't have to argue the "militia/collective" argument anymore. Point to Heller and McDonald and say that the issue has been settled.

If they want to go against the Supreme Court, point out that this is twice as many rulings as there are on abortion (Roe v. Wade), so that to question the *individual* aspect of the 2A is akin to trying to ban abortion *and* claim the Earth is flat.

This is a much better route than to do the actual research which is contained in Heller and then have to argue it all over again. A court precedent is a court precedent, and those who don't believe it might as well go to court to claim that they don't have to pay taxes.

See how he ends up denying the simple judicial facts.
Said well, I think this is a "common sense" approach. lol
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Old 11-13-2012, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
Whenever someone orders me a subscription to a magazine that goes against my basic point of view on life, I order them a subscription to a magazine that they might find offensive.

Something along the lines of NAMBLA monthly.

I also like to post their e-mail addresses/phone numbers to whatever "hook-up" websites I can find that specialize in those areas they find particularly offensive.
You know, that's a great idea. Not so much to offend, but a well written "women's day self defense" type magazine would be awesome!
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Old 11-13-2012, 6:18 PM
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Just insert the 1st amendment into the argument and ask if restrictions are ok on that? With anti's i start with the emotional arguments first such as "how is someone who is weaker than a criminal going to fight them off" . What other object could stop a 200lb guy from raping a 100lb girl? Are you advocating rule by the strongest? Then move into heller. 2Nd amend stuff. If that doesnt work tell him to gtfo guns are cool.
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Old 11-13-2012, 6:19 PM
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Just wanted to add: he is not ready for an nra membership. He is ready for you to show him armed citizen self defense stories.
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Old 11-13-2012, 6:24 PM
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What is a "common sense" gun control law?
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Old 11-13-2012, 6:35 PM
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If I bought into every piece of propaganda I heard in a day, my head would explode.

I needed an NRA membership to join the gun club of my choice. A friend bought me a life membership as a gift. So I have it, and I take their information with a good bit of salt.

I am SO SICK of people telling me what to be afraid of. I lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that set the bar for me.
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Old 11-13-2012, 6:56 PM
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So much whinging over a non-issue.

Take him shooting.

Anything else is just going to piss him off. You clearly have no idea how to reach him on an intellectual level, so don't bother.
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Old 11-13-2012, 7:44 PM
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I am SO SICK of people telling me what to be afraid of. I lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that set the bar for me.
Whether you're leaning left or right, pandering to the emotional side of humanity is what you'll receive.

If it's not about being afraid of "liberals who will get your guns," it's about being afraid of "racist rednecks who will kill you over a parking space."
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Old 11-13-2012, 7:50 PM
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Whether you're leaning left or right, pandering to the emotional side of humanity is what you'll receive.

If it's not about being afraid of "liberals who will get your guns," it's about being afraid of "racist rednecks who will kill you over a parking space."
This. 1000% true.
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Old 11-13-2012, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jbl_1967 View Post
I was told, quite bluntly, that I proved nothing and since guns only exist to kill people, anyone who owns one must be planning to kill someone, and they hoped they never angered me.

Yeah, I know. What did I really expect? I was a bit surprised that someone who has know me for 20 odd years would accuse me of being a psychopath, but I guess that is the only thing that fit in with their belief system.
This person is a classic hard case, described here. He thinks you will kill him because he doesn't trust himself not to kill you. Reason won't work. And NRA publication will backfire badly.

Read the article I linked. Sounds like your friend. Personally, I can't be bothered with these types. Not worth the effort.

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Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Take him shooting.
While I usually agree with this, and in most cases it works, it sometimes fails, particularly with this type of person. I've seen it. One person that I took shooting (only one) was terrified by the experience.
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Last edited by MudCamper; 11-13-2012 at 8:56 PM..
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Old 11-13-2012, 9:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
While I usually agree with this, and in most cases it works, it sometimes fails, particularly with this type of person. I've seen it. One person that I took shooting (only one) was terrified by the experience.
I have a lot of very liberal friends. I can't think of a single one this pathetic and useless.
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Old 11-13-2012, 9:27 PM
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Another liberal 2nd Amendment activist here. Don't give them an NRA membership. Your friend doesn't have the background to put it into its proper context. The NRA is good, but very confrontational, and they assume you are looking from the same perspective that they are.

Daily Kos, an extremely liberal web site, has what you need:

Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment

You're friend can probably at least see where this article is coming from, unless he's Joseph Stalin.

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Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
If I bought into every piece of propaganda I heard in a day, my head would explode...

I am SO SICK of people telling me what to be afraid of. I lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that set the bar for me.
I'm 24 years old, but my dad lived through it. When I was a child, my dad told me about what he experienced that day. It was the scariest thing I had ever heard, and still is.

Last edited by Dreaded Claymore; 11-13-2012 at 9:31 PM..
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Old 11-14-2012, 3:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreaded Claymore View Post

Daily Kos, an extremely liberal web site, has what you need:

Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment

.
Thank you, and Thank you! These articles will compliment my "gun facts" article nicely.
I'm done trying to talk logic with people operating under strong defense mechanisms. I'm just gonna start giving them articles to read, and if they still hold there opinions after being offered hard facts in an easy to understand format, then they are just mentally incapable of logic.
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Old 11-14-2012, 9:43 AM
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then they are just mentally incapable of logic.
No, you're just ill equipped to understand their thought process well enough to convince them of anything.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
If they want to go against the Supreme Court, point out that this is twice as many rulings as there are on abortion (Roe v. Wade), so that to question the *individual* aspect of the 2A is akin to trying to ban abortion *and* claim the Earth is flat.
If what you're counting is the number of Supreme Court rulings in which the Court re-affirmed the right in question, I think abortion currently has a lead over guns, with at least 4 cases:

1) Roe v. Wade
2) City of Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health
3) Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
4) Planned Parenthood v. Casey
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:44 PM
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OP can u post the articles and link you shared with liberal friend, i could use it on my slow friend. Thanks
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
No, you're just ill equipped to understand their thought process well enough to convince them of anything.
There is very little thought process when fear is involved. It would be like trying to explain to an arachnophobic that a spider crawling on their leg is not going to bite.

Those entrenched on the gun control issue have an easy out for their fear: ban all guns. There is no amount of logic on either side that will overcome that. Even if they can understand and agree with logic during a conversation, the next day the conversation is forgotten, while the fear remains.

To make a difference, we need to address the emotional factor, not the cognitive one.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:20 AM
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Most of my family are left-leaning and antiguns.
Every time there is a shooting or some crime, they always blamed NRA.

One day I asked:
"So, since you guys bashing NRA all the time. would you guys mind that I take survey here: How many of you ever being to an NRA event? ever read NRA policy? or talked to an NRA representative?"

Of course, I got a room of dead silent, because none of them had any knowledge about NRA, all they got was some baseless accusation from Feinstein. Pretty much like how early Romans accusing Christians eating babies...etc
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:25 AM
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If what you're counting is the number of Supreme Court rulings in which the Court re-affirmed the right in question, I think abortion currently has a lead over guns, with at least 4 cases:
You just destroyed a perfectly valid talking point.

However, it still remains that 2A is both in the Bill of Rights, making it a civil right, and that there are Supreme Court rulings which eliminate the "collective interpretation" and affirm it as a fundamental individual right in the context of the armed self defense. Accepting these facts makes it much more difficult for any educated person to keep their anti-gun position while maintaining overall support for civil liberties and freedom.
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