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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1201  
Old 11-07-2012, 7:39 AM
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I spoke with the ATF directly last month and discussed this. Their response was that modifying a 50+ year old firearm to SBR/SBS removes it's C&R status and is manufacturing a "new" firearm.
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  #1202  
Old 11-07-2012, 7:48 AM
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Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
I spoke with the ATF directly last month and discussed this. Their response was that modifying a 50+ year old firearm to SBR/SBS removes it's C&R status and is manufacturing a "new" firearm.
Correct, it removes the C&R status as far as the feds are concerned. The feds do not care if a shotgun is C&R, not C&R, or built as an SBS from the start. They only want your $200. An SBS is not illegal on the federal level.
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  #1203  
Old 11-09-2012, 12:18 AM
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Correct, it removes the C&R status as far as the feds are concerned. The feds do not care if a shotgun is C&R, not C&R, or built as an SBS from the start. They only want your $200. An SBS is not illegal on the federal level.
Either way, they have been denying these requests from CA for a few years now.

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  #1204  
Old 11-09-2012, 2:22 AM
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ATF does take the state of origin into consideration and won't approve requests from states where it may conflict with federal law.
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  #1205  
Old 11-09-2012, 6:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
ATF does take the state of origin into consideration and won't approve requests from states where it may conflict with federal law.
And for CA...
BATFE NFA Branch will not approve a Form 1/4 for a SBR/SBS, unless the applicant has a valid Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS from the CA DOJ BOF.

BATFE NFA Branch will approve a Form 4 for a C&R SBR/C&R SBS because a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS is not required.
Making a C&R rifle/C&R shotgun into a SBR/SBS, makes it a "modern" SBR/SBS and requires a Dangerous Weapons Permit.
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  #1206  
Old 11-09-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
And for CA...
BATFE NFA Branch will not approve a Form 1/4 for a SBR/SBS, unless the applicant has a valid Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS from the CA DOJ BOF.

BATFE NFA Branch will approve a Form 4 for a C&R SBR/C&R SBS because a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS is not required.
Making a C&R rifle/C&R shotgun into a SBR/SBS, makes it a "modern" SBR/SBS and requires a Dangerous Weapons Permit.
If I can take my C&R shotgun with an interchangeable 24" barrel and change it out for an 18" barrel it is still C&R right?
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  #1207  
Old 11-11-2012, 3:28 PM
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And FYI the bit abut modifying a C&R and it loses C&R status refers to military firearms. A domestic C&R is still a C&R.
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  #1208  
Old 11-11-2012, 3:59 PM
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And FYI the bit abut modifying a C&R and it loses C&R status refers to military firearms. A domestic C&R is still a C&R.
So that means I can get an approval to turn an old Ithaca hunting shotgun into a SBS without it becoming modern?
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  #1209  
Old 11-11-2012, 4:05 PM
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So that means I can get an approval to turn an old Ithaca hunting shotgun into a SBS without it becoming modern?
Sunds fine to me, but be sure to dot your i's and cross your t's. I had a *TYPO* on my trust and they sent me back to square one.

We really need a SBS/AOW/SBR flowchart!
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  #1210  
Old 11-11-2012, 4:14 PM
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We really need a SBS/AOW/SBR flowchart!
no, we don't.

NFA stuff is so radioactive if you get it wrong that you have to KNOW the law, not just look at a flowchart.
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  #1211  
Old 11-11-2012, 4:30 PM
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That's why I prefer to buy my NFA items from a licensed dealer rather than make my own.
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  #1212  
Old 11-11-2012, 8:03 PM
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Sunds fine to me, but be sure to dot your i's and cross your t's. I had a *TYPO* on my trust and they sent me back to square one.

We really need a SBS/AOW/SBR flowchart!
Did you have to pay again, or just wait longer?
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  #1213  
Old 11-11-2012, 8:04 PM
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That's why I prefer to buy my NFA items from a licensed dealer rather than make my own.
Making stuff is fun!
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  #1214  
Old 11-11-2012, 8:17 PM
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Did you have to pay again, or just wait longer?
wait longer. If they end up denying an app completely, you will get a refund.
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  #1215  
Old 11-11-2012, 9:08 PM
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Making stuff is fun!
Sure is. It used to be anyone could make any gun with just one form. I miss freedom.
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  #1216  
Old 11-11-2012, 9:33 PM
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wait longer. If they end up denying an app completely, you will get a refund.
Ok, that's not too bad. I'm not in a hurry, but I don't want to throw away $200.
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  #1217  
Old 11-11-2012, 9:35 PM
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Sure is. It used to be anyone could make any gun with just one form. I miss freedom.
We can do it with no forms, but that might not end well.
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  #1218  
Old 11-11-2012, 9:43 PM
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We can do it with no forms, but that might not end well.
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  #1219  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:53 AM
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If I can take my C&R shotgun with an interchangeable 24" barrel and change it out for an 18" barrel it is still C&R right?
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
And for CA...
BATFE NFA Branch will not approve a Form 1/4 for a SBR/SBS, unless the applicant has a valid Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS from the CA DOJ BOF.

BATFE NFA Branch will approve a Form 4 for a C&R SBR/C&R SBS because a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS is not required.
Making a C&R rifle/C&R shotgun into a SBR/SBS, makes it a "modern" SBR/SBS and requires a Dangerous Weapons Permit.
Do you happen to know under what authority the ATF cites in denying a California Form 1 without a Dangerous Weapons Permit? I thought they used to grant Form 1's despite CA law?
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  #1220  
Old 11-12-2012, 1:41 PM
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Good idea!
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  #1221  
Old 11-12-2012, 2:30 PM
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And FYI the bit abut modifying a C&R and it loses C&R status refers to military firearms. A domestic C&R is still a C&R.
What's the source on that?
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  #1222  
Old 11-12-2012, 2:58 PM
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What kind of sbrs are commie legal anyway a 870 with 14" barrel maybe, probably not but a man can dream, a man can dream
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  #1223  
Old 11-12-2012, 2:59 PM
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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curi...#modifications

The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 CFR 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.
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  #1224  
Old 11-12-2012, 3:09 PM
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What kind of sbrs are commie legal anyway a 870 with 14" barrel maybe, probably not but a man can dream, a man can dream
Or just move to a free state.
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  #1225  
Old 11-12-2012, 3:11 PM
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You will be hard pressed getting a SBR due to CA AW laws.
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  #1226  
Old 11-15-2012, 4:39 PM
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ke6guj, what are your thoughts on paying for an NFA item only from a bank account setup in the name of the trust? There seems to be some split on other NFA forums I've been poking around on. Check coming from NFA Trust v personal credit card, etc.
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  #1227  
Old 11-15-2012, 4:44 PM
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^^

I have mine set up that way and paid for the NFA item through my trust account at the bank using a cashier's check. Kept the receipt for purchase of cashier's check in my NFA trust folder.
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  #1228  
Old 11-15-2012, 5:05 PM
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Has anyone ever run across a C&R SBS for sale? I constantly search the online auction sites and short of a Marble Game Getter, I never see them for sale. I'd really like an Ithaca Auto-Burglar (AOW) or an 870 SBS, but those seem to be vaporware. I guess they probably don't come up for sale in Internet auctions too often. Probably have to scour brick and mortar auction houses.
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  #1229  
Old 11-15-2012, 6:45 PM
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So i have a 1920's semi auto rem 1100 i think it is, can ebrworks turn that into an SBS for me since its not a military arm?
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  #1230  
Old 11-15-2012, 7:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
ke6guj, what are your thoughts on paying for an NFA item only from a bank account setup in the name of the trust? There seems to be some split on other NFA forums I've been poking around on. Check coming from NFA Trust v personal credit card, etc.
I personally have never heard of any issues with someone using personal funds instead of trust funds to pay for an NFA item or the payment to BATFE. That said, I can only assume that there is a good reason that the NFA lawyers prefer that you use trust funds.
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  #1231  
Old 11-15-2012, 10:17 PM
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Keeps it cleaner, my guess.
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  #1232  
Old 11-16-2012, 5:39 AM
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So i have a 1920's semi auto rem 1100 i think it is, can ebrworks turn that into an SBS for me since its not a military arm?
Sadly, ATF would consider this the manufacture of a "new" firearm, negating it's C&R status.
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  #1233  
Old 11-19-2012, 12:22 PM
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Sadly, ATF would consider this the manufacture of a "new" firearm, negating it's C&R status.
The law says loss of C&R status is for military firearms only.
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  #1234  
Old 11-19-2012, 12:49 PM
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The law says loss of C&R status is for military firearms only.
the ATF ruling says that it applies to .mil firearms (note that that ruling was in 1985 when many .mil firearms weren't 50-years old yet and were being imported as curios, not at relics). ATF has taken the position that it applies to domestic C&Rs as well and just send back your Form 1 saying that you need a DW permit for a modern SBx.

If you want a newly-modified C&R SBx bad, I guess you could sue ATF to approve your Form 1. That will probably be the only way to get this fixed.
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  #1235  
Old 11-19-2012, 3:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
the ATF ruling says that it applies to .mil firearms (note that that ruling was in 1985 when many .mil firearms weren't 50-years old yet and were being imported as curios, not at relics). ATF has taken the position that it applies to domestic C&Rs as well and just send back your Form 1 saying that you need a DW permit for a modern SBx.

If you want a newly-modified C&R SBx bad, I guess you could sue ATF to approve your Form 1. That will probably be the only way to get this fixed.
I'll kick in $20 to get someone going on the lawsuit thing. Won't be me thats for sure.

No more C&R SBS's will be made until they change their mind. Regardless of what some read/interpret the law as who aren't inking up my next tax stamp.

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  #1236  
Old 11-20-2012, 7:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
the ATF ruling says that it applies to .mil firearms (note that that ruling was in 1985 when many .mil firearms weren't 50-years old yet and were being imported as curios, not at relics). ATF has taken the position that it applies to domestic C&Rs as well and just send back your Form 1 saying that you need a DW permit for a modern SBx.

If you want a newly-modified C&R SBx bad, I guess you could sue ATF to approve your Form 1. That will probably be the only way to get this fixed.
Taking a position and following the law are two different things.
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  #1237  
Old 11-20-2012, 8:18 AM
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Taking a position and following the law are two different things.
exactly. I specifically used that phrase when I wrote that.
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  #1238  
Old 11-20-2012, 8:55 AM
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I've been looking for an NFA registered C&R SBS for 8 months. I have come across one, in Montana, but it's NFA status was questionable so the seller wouldn't sell it.

I am going to continue scouring Subguns, Stormgewehr, etc. there has to be one out there for me.
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  #1239  
Old 11-20-2012, 4:28 PM
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Guess what... Let's get the party started. I will have a few C&R NFA 870s, 37s, 12s, and possibly some other models in the very near future. Knowing that I have this shipment coming, I am more willing to let go of the 870 SBS that I have in stock. These were not easy to get, but finally we have them coming! I will post in the commercial section.
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Old 11-20-2012, 7:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
Guess what... Let's get the party started. I will have a few C&R NFA 870s, 37s, 12s, and possibly some other models in the very near future. Knowing that I have this shipment coming, I am more willing to let go of the 870 SBS that I have in stock. These were not easy to get, but finally we have them coming! I will post in the commercial section.
sweet!!!!!!!
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Jack



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