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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 11-03-2012, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cmaynes View Post
open carry in most cases is not a deterrent.

as to how effective that person could bring the weapon into a fight- have you ever tried doing a fast mag change with a BB AR? one where the weapon was slung and not in your hands and ready to go?

the standards for shooting someone is if they are a threat within 25ft. Do you think you could beat someone rushing you at that distance?

I get the 2A angle, but I think there was an big lack of good judgement in this particular incident. It doesnt help expand gun rights by doing that. Sheeple are terrified of Airsoft guns already....
Tell that to the looters in New York in the aftermath of Sandy.

Look, most people act differently around police. Some might think it's the badge or the uniform, others may be concerned about the handcuffs and being hauled to jail, but when you strip it down to the basics, a handsome uniform or handcuffs isnt what changes people's behavior. It is the authority to use lethal force and the tools to back it up.

I'm not saying that an openly carried sidearm or rifle is a magical talisman that wards off bad juju... or that should be the only available tool to create distance or defense. But saying that OC isnt a deterent 'in most cases' is just plain silly.
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  #82  
Old 11-03-2012, 6:42 PM
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I'm in Arcata once or twice a month for business. Definitely an interesting town. I like it. Lukes Joint in the plaza is a nice little restaurant. You either get Arcata or you don't.

Given all that, I carry 24/7 there. I get a semi "wild west" feeling when I'm up in that part of California.

The APD deals with a lot of "different" people there. But that gives them no excuse to seize a firearm. There is a lot of power play in those towns. Everyone is trying to rab their part.
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  #83  
Old 11-03-2012, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
I have not noticed anything stated about the actual reason the rifle was seized. It seems to be implied, or understood, but where is the actual reason?
If you were or ever had been a Humboldt County resident you would understand that it was seized because he was in Arcata and guns are bad. Mmmmmmmkay?
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  #84  
Old 11-03-2012, 7:07 PM
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Interesting, I hope you whip their ***.
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  #85  
Old 11-03-2012, 7:08 PM
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Interesting, I hope you whip their ***.

They will get an education....
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  #86  
Old 11-03-2012, 7:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cmaynes View Post
open carry in most cases is not a deterrent.

as to how effective that person could bring the weapon into a fight- have you ever tried doing a fast mag change with a BB AR? one where the weapon was slung and not in your hands and ready to go?

the standards for shooting someone is if they are a threat within 25ft. Do you think you could beat someone rushing you at that distance?

I get the 2A angle, but I think there was an big lack of good judgement in this particular incident. It doesnt help expand gun rights by doing that. Sheeple are terrified of Airsoft guns already....
It's all academic since the long arm open carry ban will go into effect January 1st, but...

If you are referring to defense against a knife armed attacker (which they had fun playing with on Mythbusters), why not use a bayonet equipped long arm? Hell, even a buttstroke would work. A rifle doesn't have to have ammunition to be a lethal weapon.

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  #87  
Old 11-03-2012, 7:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
To those myopic few who think this is about open carry, broaden your horizons and read Amend 4.
QFT

I always try to read an entire thread before I post, and I was going crazy in this one until I came across this post. It's a wonder how we, as a group of firearm owners, ever get anything accomplished.

On my way to throw a few bucks to CGF for working on this case.
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  #88  
Old 11-03-2012, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lilro View Post
LOL. Most of those aren't "winning". They are "complying".
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no such thing as an OLL, and all AR-15s/AKs/etc. would be legal to own.
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no need for a bullet button, and standard mag releases would be legal on rifles with "evil" features.
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no need for magazine rebuilds, and standard cap magazines would be legal to purchase, sell, import, and manufacture. There'd be no such thing as "pre-ban."
*SB249, Sac LTC, Heller & McDonald - I'll give you those.
*If it weren't for the CA roster, we wouldn't have to search around for a FFL that does SSE on the particular firearm we want, and we'd be able to buy whatever handgun we wanted, without modification.

CA AWB: Roberti-Roos passed in 1989. SB-23 passed in 1999. Magazine ban passed in 1999. The Safe Handgun Roster passed in 2000.

Since then, we've kicked the crap out of these restrictions, steadily gaining ground every year. That's generally called "winning". Pointing to bills passed in 89/99/2000 and saying "we're not winning" in 2012 is about as nonsensical as claiming the US lost WWII because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

Would you rather go back to the AWB banning all ARs/AKs/semi-autos with pistol grips, only having 10 round magazines, and never being able to buy off list handguns?
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  #89  
Old 11-03-2012, 8:39 PM
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Arcata is a crazy place on Halloween partly due to it being a college town. A few years ago before they started closing down the plaza, it was chaotic and mostly uncontrollable during that specific night. Even though the police made an attempt to keep it manageable by closing it off. Its apparent it had a minimal effect considering what was reported in the papers.

If memory serves me right, there use to an old veteran that would walk the streets in his fatigues and a rifle slung over the shoulder. From what I heard, the police knew of him but left him along. Also, with Humboldt being so remote, guns are pretty common. And, in my opinion, the police up here don't get overly excited about guns unless they pose a possible safety situation to themselves.

I to don't agree with what happen in Arcata. But can kind of see why they made that decision. A crap load of people (drunk college kids) in a small space + exposed rifle may of gotten ugly with the wrong mix of people (stabbings are common in the plaza). But illegally seizing someones weapon was not the way to do it.

Last edited by chris10; 11-03-2012 at 8:42 PM..
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  #90  
Old 11-03-2012, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by GettoPhilosopher View Post
CA AWB: Roberti-Roos passed in 1989. SB-23 passed in 1999. Magazine ban passed in 1999. The Safe Handgun Roster passed in 2000.

Since then, we've kicked the crap out of these restrictions, steadily gaining ground every year. That's generally called "winning". Pointing to bills passed in 89/99/2000 and saying "we're not winning" in 2012 is about as nonsensical as claiming the US lost WWII because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

Would you rather go back to the AWB banning all ARs/AKs/semi-autos with pistol grips, only having 10 round magazines, and never being able to buy off list handguns?
How did you kick the crap out of the restrictions? You found a legal way around them. That is all. I'd rather the CA AWB get overturned. That is winning. I'd rather the CA handgun roster get overturned. That is winning.

Think about it like this: Let's say CA banned cars that used gasoline, but due to the sloppy language, there was few particular vehicles that were exempt from these restrictions. You buy one. You call that winning? I don't.

If you look BEFORE those bills, all those things were LEGAL. All semi-auto rifles, standard cap mags, all handguns, etc. Go back before the 68 GCA and the 34 NFA, and even more freedoms regarding firearms were had. We are LOSING. We are just losing SLOWLY.

Name the bills we PASSED, or REPEALED. Not the ones we STOPPED, or found a way to deal with.

Last edited by lilro; 11-03-2012 at 9:00 PM..
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  #91  
Old 11-03-2012, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lilro View Post
How did you kick the crap out of the restrictions? You found a legal way around them. That is all. I'd rather the CA AWB get overturned. That is winning. I'd rather the CA handgun roster get overturned. That is winning.

Think about it like this: Let's say CA banned cars that used gasoline, but due to the sloppy language, there was few particular vehicles that were exempt from these restrictions. You buy one. You call that winning? I don't.

If you look BEFORE those bills, all those things were LEGAL. All semi-auto rifles, standard cap mags, all handguns, etc. Go back before the 68 GCA and the 34 NFA, and even more freedoms regarding firearms were had. We are LOSING. We are just losing SLOWLY.

Name the bills we PASSED, or REPEALED. Not the ones we STOPPED, or found a way to deal with.
Answer me this: is a football game won as soon as a team shows up or does it take 60 minutes, 4 quarters, of work between two competing teams - rivals - to get it done? How about getting to and winning the Super Bowl? Then what happens?

Your argument is downright puerile and serves only to perpetuate self-pity. We are winning, for many reasons - but not one of them is crying into our beers.

-Brandon
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  #92  
Old 11-03-2012, 9:19 PM
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It seems to me that the APD was dealing with a drunk, hostile crowd. That crowd had attacked officers by throwing items at them. One officer ended up at the hospital for stitches after being struck with a beer bottle. YOU DO NOT ATTACK THE POLICE!!!! I'm hard pressed to feel that the officer did something wrong. Seems to me like they were trying to control a hostile crowd and confiscating that weapon was part of the attempt to bring the crowd in line.

Is it really unreasonable seizure of a weapon from someone when that person is part or a hostile crowd?

Last edited by SoCal326; 11-03-2012 at 9:23 PM..
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  #93  
Old 11-03-2012, 9:25 PM
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It seems to me that the APD was dealing with a drunk, hostile crowd. That crowd had attacked officers by throwing items at them. One officer ended up at the hospital for stitches after being struck with a beer bottle. YOU DO NOT ATTACK THE POLICE!!!! I'm hard pressed to feel that the officer did something wrong. Seems to me like they were trying to control a hostile crowd and confiscating that weapon was part of the attempt to bring the crowd in line.

Is it really unreasonable seizure of a weapon from someone when that person is part or a hostile crowd?
You assume the subject was part of a hostile crowd (though I don't know why; you might want to reflect on how you arrived at such an assumption). He wasn't. There was no cause for his "extended detainment" or the seizure of his lawfully-possessed firearm.

Bottom line: rights were violated. Are you ok with that?

-Brandon
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  #94  
Old 11-03-2012, 9:26 PM
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I'm 5 minutes or so from where it happened, and it really is a flat scary place on Halloween night. This was no different and its become brutal, drunkards with disregard for anyone around, and just drugged out hippie idiots trying to be "free". I wouldn't go there but it doesn't mean I don't think it is ridiculous that a person had an illegally confiscated weapon. I can't wait to see what happens here and I hope Brandon kicks their asses around and the officer involved gets nailed for it.

I should pull pics from things like Rocky Horror Picture Show events, Halloween, 4/20, and other events that are just flat crazy these days. I wouldn't take my family in the TOWN, much less to the plaza these days on holidays like this.

Its unfortunate, and I see what the officer was THINKING albeit wrong either way.
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  #95  
Old 11-03-2012, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Answer me this: is a football game won as soon as a team shows up or does it take 60 minutes, 4 quarters, of work between two competing teams - rivals - to get it done? How about getting to and winning the Super Bowl? Then what happens?

Your argument is downright puerile and serves only to perpetuate self-pity. We are winning, for many reasons - but not one of them is crying into our beers.

-Brandon
Using your football analogy, we showed up to the game and got an interception, and turned it back over before reaching the endzone. We aren't winning. I definitely appreciate the effort, and support as many pro-2A organizations as I can. Doesn't mean we're winning.
Again, what bills did we PASS, or REPEAL? When did we score a TD? When did we get a bogus fumble overturned? We didn't. We slow them down. That is all.
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  #96  
Old 11-03-2012, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by lilro View Post
Using your football analogy, we showed up to the game and got an interception, and turned it back over before reaching the endzone. We aren't winning. I definitely appreciate the effort, and support as many pro-2A organizations as I can. Doesn't mean we're winning.
Again, what bills did we PASS, or REPEAL? When did we score a TD? When did we get a bogus fumble overturned? We didn't. We slow them down. That is all.
Extending the foot ball analogy, how many games have you watched where the home team maintains possession of the ball for the entirety of the game? Is a teams 'passing' game the only means to gain yardage? And how do you think that these small advances do not add up to a first down?
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  #97  
Old 11-03-2012, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by lilro View Post
Using your football analogy, we showed up to the game and got an interception, and turned it back over before reaching the endzone. We aren't winning. I definitely appreciate the effort, and support as many pro-2A organizations as I can. Doesn't mean we're winning.
Again, what bills did we PASS, or REPEAL? When did we score a TD? When did we get a bogus fumble overturned? We didn't. We slow them down. That is all.
Uhm, Heller? McDonald? Ezell? Woolard?

We're not going to score on every possession, but we are winning.

-Brandon
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  #98  
Old 11-03-2012, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
You can't demand a law enforcement agency break the law to avoid a lawsuit.

-Brandon
No need to demand when LEAs are so proficient at doing it themselves.

Breaking the law, that is.

Last edited by Wojtek; 11-03-2012 at 10:36 PM..
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  #99  
Old 11-03-2012, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
I see. So given the history of violence at this location you wouldnt want anyone but police or military armed there?



It is more beneficial to demand that the police follow the law than to establish precedent that they can avoid litigation by handing over wrongfully seized property with a pat on the back and a 'sorry for the trouble'.
I have a really big igneous stone that needs squeezed for blood if you are up for the task.
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lilro View Post
Using your football analogy, we showed up to the game and got an interception, and turned it back over before reaching the endzone. We aren't winning. I definitely appreciate the effort, and support as many pro-2A organizations as I can. Doesn't mean we're winning.
Again, what bills did we PASS, or REPEAL? When did we score a TD? When did we get a bogus fumble overturned? We didn't. We slow them down. That is all.
Are you kidding? Not sure how long you have been a gun owner or been around people who care about gun rights, but 1 thing I know for sure, compared to 40 yrs ago we are decimating the opponent today! 40 yrs ago the best the NRA or other groups could do is play defense and try to beg law makers not to be so harsh on gun owners. The majority opinion of public opinion was against gun ownership. Today, the 2nd Amend is incorporated into the Constitution and against the states. Public opinion is for gun ownership. 40+ states are shall issue. Politicians run scared instead of demanding terms of surrender. CGF, SAF, and others are kicking arse. It takes small steps like going to a PD and knocking some heads around. Big steps come when they come. Today is nothing like the past.
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  #101  
Old 11-04-2012, 12:19 AM
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Default Exactly right

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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Uhm, Heller? McDonald? Ezell? Woolard?

We're not going to score on every possession, but we are winning.

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And let's not forget the steady national sweep of reformed carry laws since 1986

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  #102  
Old 11-04-2012, 5:24 AM
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I have a really big igneous stone that needs squeezed for blood if you are up for the task.
I'm sure you're forgetting the stone shaped like the City of San Diego or the one shaped like the City of Calexico. Arcata is a smaller 'stone' that is more easily moved with fewer resources and I am sure they can be as generous as the other stones.

If we collect enough of these stones, what we will have is an inpenetrable wall built up around the remnants of the second amendment in California.
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  #103  
Old 11-04-2012, 5:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Lone_Gunman View Post
If you were or ever had been a Humboldt County resident you would understand that it was seized because he was in Arcata and guns are bad. Mmmmmmmkay?
Ah...No. I always appreciate the facts. All I have read thus far is rumor, second hand reports, and conjecture. A police incident or arrest report would end the speculation. I've written to them for the releasable record, although that could be sketchy too, beings that none of us were involved
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  #104  
Old 11-04-2012, 6:51 AM
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One of those touch downs is shall issue in Sacramento county where Thousands now carry legally everyday . And we are not politically connected or super rich , yet . Just a regular worker with a family and 3 gunson my license : )

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  #105  
Old 11-04-2012, 9:06 AM
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One of those touch downs is shall issue in Sacramento county where Thousands now carry legally everyday . And we are not politically connected or super rich , yet . Just a regular worker with a family and 3 gunson my license : )

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Nuh uh man in 1776 people owned cannons SO THEREFORE WE ARE LOOSING UNLESS OR UNTIL I CAN BUY AN ABRAMS. #ragingsarcasm

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  #106  
Old 11-04-2012, 9:09 AM
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We can still own a black powder cannon, but I don't think that many "people" owned one in 1776?
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  #107  
Old 11-04-2012, 9:41 AM
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We can still own a black powder cannon, but I don't think that many "people" owned one in 1776?
I was being ragingly sarcastic.

I also misspelled "losing". Meh.

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  #108  
Old 11-04-2012, 9:42 AM
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Nuh uh man in 1776 people owned cannons SO THEREFORE WE ARE LOOSING UNLESS OR UNTIL I CAN BUY AN ABRAMS. #ragingsarcasm

Glad you got your permit man!

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lol nice.
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  #109  
Old 11-04-2012, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gunsandrockets View Post
...
If you are referring to defense against a knife armed attacker (which they had fun playing with on Mythbusters), why not use a bayonet equipped long arm? Hell, even a buttstroke would work. A rifle doesn't have to have ammunition to be a lethal weapon....
Straight up truth. I can attest to the fact that a M-16/AR-15 is a wicked hand-to-hand combat weapon, having won many (all - undefeated) training sessions in the US Army and being regarded by my trainers as a champion expert in that combat technique.

In other words, a butt stroke to the head with an AR will put a man down to the point where he won't be getting back up without medical care or ever.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:43 AM
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Using the foot ball analogy.....yardage doesn't mean S**T. You can rush for 10,000 yards in a game and not win. Scoring is what wins and in this state we are not even on the score board and they have been stomping a mud hole in us for points. They scored on the AWB, they scored on mag restrictions, they scored on the roster, Open carry they scored TWICE!!! Give me a break, in this state we haven't even been close to the end zone. Using a porn analogy we are virgins and they are Ron Jeromy, come on stop with the everything is rosy BS.

In this state I am with this team win, loose of draw but coach.. don't tell me we are winning. We are barley in the game.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:05 AM
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You're quite wrong but I suspect you're unwilling to consider any perspective that disagrees with yours.

Sir, may I offer your another beer to cry in?

-Brandon

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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Using the foot ball analogy.....yardage doesn't mean S**T. You can rush for 10,000 yards in a game and not win. Scoring is what wins and in this state we are not even on the score board and they have been stomping a mud hole in us for points. They scored on the AWB, they scored on mag restrictions, they scored on the roster, Open carry they scored TWICE!!! Give me a break, in this state we haven't even been close to the end zone. Using a porn analogy we are virgins and they are Ron Jeromy, come on stop with the everything is rosy BS.

In this state I am with this team win, loose of draw but coach.. don't tell me we are winning. We are barley in the game.
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  #112  
Old 11-04-2012, 11:11 AM
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Might I remind everyone that, as recently as June 2010, Californians didn't have a judicially-recognized Second Amendment.

Two years. Two short years since then to work cases up through slow-moving courts. Patience isn't a virtue; it's a necessity. Restoring the Second Amendment will take years and decades, not months and weeks.



In any case, can we get back to the OP or lock this thread until we have an update? This matter is really a Fourth Amendment issue anyway.

-Brandon
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Last edited by wildhawker; 11-04-2012 at 11:17 AM..
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  #113  
Old 11-04-2012, 11:31 AM
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Tell that to the looters in New York in the aftermath of Sandy.
That is a very specialized and unusual circumstance. Not relevant to the discussion.
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Look, most people act differently around police. Some might think it's the badge or the uniform, others may be concerned about the handcuffs and being hauled to jail, but when you strip it down to the basics, a handsome uniform or handcuffs isnt what changes people's behavior. It is the authority to use lethal force and the tools to back it up.
I can assure you that I do not factor in fear of lethal force when I encounter police. The suggestion is in fact a bit weird and creepy in my view; I think the reaction would be at least mildly offensive to most officers. I encounter other people while openly armed often and do not think they fear me. I know it takes much more for me to feel uneasy around armed people than just that they are openly carrying.



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I'm not saying that an openly carried sidearm or rifle is a magical talisman that wards off bad juju... or that should be the only available tool to create distance or defense. But saying that OC isnt a deterent 'in most cases' is just plain silly.
Due to the fact that I carry concealed most all of the time I consider those who openly carry in places where the discharge of a firearm is not legal as targets of first consideration if they menace me. And they will probably not know it until the bullet is on its way.

Edited to add: Nothing in this post is intended to imply that I do not support those who (unwisely in my opinion) openly carry. I don’t think it wise to randomly flip off CHP’s either, but if it’s your thing I fully support your right do do it.
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Last edited by Meplat1; 11-04-2012 at 12:11 PM..
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  #114  
Old 11-04-2012, 11:48 AM
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When did we score a TD? When did we get a bogus fumble overturned?
In Heller we got a blown call on a TD (2A) overturned. In McDonald we got a bogus fumble overturned. Game ain’t over.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cmaynes View Post
open carry in most cases is not a deterrent.
It worked during the fires in 2007 to keep looters out of neighborhoods. I have friends that have "been there, done that". About a dozen cars/trucks an hour saw them standing at the end of a private road and decided to turn around, quite a few pickups with multiple big screens in the back.

It also seems to work for the military, ask any one who has stood watch. Side arm on one side of the duty belt, magazines on the other.
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  #116  
Old 11-04-2012, 11:51 AM
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I'm sure you're forgetting the stone shaped like the City of San Diego or the one shaped like the City of Calexico. Arcata is a smaller 'stone' that is more easily moved with fewer resources and I am sure they can be as generous as the other stones.

If we collect enough of these stones, what we will have is an inpenetrable wall built up around the remnants of the second amendment in California.
Yup, I saw this thread and thought. Oh, another case like Sam's.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:58 AM
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You're quite wrong but I suspect you're unwilling to consider any perspective that disagrees with yours.

Sir, may I offer your another beer to cry in?

-Brandon
If he don't want it I'll take it!!
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  #118  
Old 11-04-2012, 1:06 PM
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SoCal Gunner SoCal Gunner is offline
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This thread isn't the place for all your whining. It is about a man who, allegedly, had his firearm illegally seized by the police.

Another thing; everyone needs to keep reading so much into the story or putting personal spins on it. Does the law say "except for Halloween" or except for "the Plaza"? Does the law say "when it makes sense" or when "you would have done the same thing"? I could go on and on here...

Heaven forbid any of you guys ever end up with your rights violated.
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  #119  
Old 11-04-2012, 5:25 PM
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Carnivore Carnivore is offline
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
You're quite wrong but I suspect you're unwilling to consider any perspective that disagrees with yours.

Sir, may I offer your another beer to cry in?

-Brandon
OOPS...sorry I forgot, for those of us that are not in the "KNOW" the possibility of getting something back 30 years from now that we lost 24 years ago is "WINNING". Sorry I retract my previous statement, clearly I can not see the forest for all the trees.
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  #120  
Old 11-04-2012, 5:50 PM
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HowardW56 HowardW56 is online now
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
OOPS...sorry I forgot, for those of us that are not in the "KNOW" the possibility of getting something back 30 years from now that we lost 24 years ago is "WINNING". Sorry I retract my previous statement, clearly I can not see the forest for all the trees.
Nice... The Calguns Foundation is doing all that they can about laws that were enacted prior to their formation. The effort to stop SB249 was the first real venture into the legislative arena, and that was a success.

What do you expect? Sorry they aren't going fast enough to suit you, the courts move at their own pace, and we've only had the Second Amendment in California since June of 2010.




Prior to formally incorporating, basically operating as individuals they accomplished quite a bit: Since March 2008 ( Which was still before Heller in June 2008) they have:

CGF Successes (2008-Present) [This list needs an update, there are more successes or pending cases...]
CGF Projects Underway:
  • Peña - Handgun Roster is Unconstitutional: Peña v. Cid
  • Richards v. Sheriff Ed Prieto, County of Yolo
  • Teixeira v. County of Alameda FFL dealers zoning
  • Silvester v. Kamala Harris, 10 day waiting period
  • CGF v. County of San Mateo, firerarm carry ban in parks
  • Scocca v. Sheriff Laurie Smith, County of Santa Clara, LTC policy
  • Richards v. Kamala Harris, AW Ban unconstitutionally vague
  • Lu v. Sheriff Lee Baca, County of Los Angeles, LTC policy
  • Rossow v. Sheriff Mark Pazin, County of Merced LTC policy
  • Peterson - Partial funding of Peterson v. LaCabe, (right to carry/travel): http://bit.ly/972uyl
  • OOIDA - AB962 (ammo ban) is pre-empted by Federal law: OOIDA_v._Lindley
  • Min. Continuing Legal Education (MCLE) program for firearms issues: http://bit.ly/buY43R
  • Inquiries into Livermore PD UOC policy (ongoing): http://bit.ly/ajZJd0
  • Challenged DOJ rulemaking on DROS fees, demanded audit: http://bit.ly/cX6rvA
  • Several undisclosed legal and grassroots actions.
This is all being accomplished without any paid staff, the only people getting paid are lawyers.



What do you expect?


.
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