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  #41  
Old 01-11-2008, 1:08 PM
Ahhnother8 Ahhnother8 is offline
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Mike,

I HAD almost 150 pounds of it. Sold it all at a DEEP discount to XTC shooters. It is fine for that purpose. Unfortunately, I only use N540 for XTC. Hodgdon would not take it back, but is hopefully going to work with us. Several on the Palma Team have it, and struggled with it. It shot fabulous groups at 100 yards, but the ES was from 25 to 80 fps. That shows up HUGE at 1000 yards, so yours must be OK. Ah, 24 pounds will only get you part way through 2008.

Lane
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  #42  
Old 01-11-2008, 1:17 PM
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From what I hear and have seen, you need to moly treat your bore to truly see the benefits of moly coating. And yes.. its a pain to remove the moly coating if you decide to go back. It's really you go 100% moly or not at all.

I've personally witnessed (not experienced) an increase in accuracy when fully going moly.
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  #43  
Old 01-11-2008, 6:30 PM
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I shoot moly threw factory rifles exclusively now.
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  #44  
Old 01-11-2008, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahhnother8 View Post
but the ES was from 25 to 80 fps.
Interesting...
I was chrongraphing my varget loads and also getting large extreme spreads which concerned me.
I only did a few rounds of each and it was near dusk so I attributed it to poor light.
Now I need to run a bunch more across the chrono in good light to see if it's still there...
I only have 8lbs of varget so all is not lost...
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  #45  
Old 01-11-2008, 10:37 PM
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My favorite recipe for my Savage 10-FP HS Precision is:

-168 grain Sierra Matchking
-43.0 grains Hodgdon BL-C2
-Lapua .308 brass
-CCI bechrest Primers
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  #46  
Old 01-17-2008, 9:05 AM
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Default What vel do you run your 168SMKs?

For 155Scenar, most agree that they perform the best just over 2900fps.

How about for 168SMKs? What velocity are your rounds? According to 6mmBR's 308WIN page, they are looking like 2600fps-ish..... is that the "sweet spot"? In your experience?

Personally I use 42gr RL15 for 168SMK, they do pretty well, I am trying to see if I want to explore to increase the powder a little bit since for extreme ranges, the drop is quite a bit more than the 155Scenars.
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  #47  
Old 01-17-2008, 3:57 PM
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In MY experience, the 155 anythings like to be around 3000 fps, and I have fired the Sierra's and Lapua's up to around 3070 with great results. I know several great shooters who load around 48 grains of Varget, which likely gets them up over 3100 fps. That's pretty fast, but they make it work, and work well!!

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  #48  
Old 01-17-2008, 4:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicko View Post
For 155Scenar, most agree that they perform the best just over 2900fps.

How about for 168SMKs? What velocity are your rounds? According to 6mmBR's 308WIN page, they are looking like 2600fps-ish..... is that the "sweet spot"? In your experience?

Personally I use 42gr RL15 for 168SMK, they do pretty well, I am trying to see if I want to explore to increase the powder a little bit since for extreme ranges, the drop is quite a bit more than the 155Scenars.
I push mine at about 2670.
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  #49  
Old 01-18-2008, 1:04 AM
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Now, I know this will be a long stretch.....

WHAT'S THE BEST POWDER for .308 (long range / precision)? heh hee.... (this is like asking what's the best car...)

Here is what i am hoping for:
- least powder to achieve high velocity.... (ie. i don't need to fill it way up)
- consistant.... (ie. from lot to lot)
- clean....
- temp insensitive (so a winter day vs a hot day should be similar)
- accurate/easy to measure (not THAT critical anymore, since I have electronic dispenser and scale)

I've seen preferrable powders: IMR4895, Varget, RL15.... and maybe N540.... what else?
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  #50  
Old 01-21-2008, 9:07 PM
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I'm shooting at 300-500yds. do you think 165gr is to light?
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  #51  
Old 01-21-2008, 9:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottymouth310 View Post
I'm shooting at 300-500yds. do you think 165gr is to light?
No, but you'll want to stay with decent match bullets if accuracy is your goal. What bullet are you looking to use?
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  #52  
Old 01-21-2008, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by pottymouth310 View Post
I'm shooting at 300-500yds. do you think 165gr is to light?
Nope, I think 165gr will serves you right.

Now, what's the purpose? Target shooting or hunting? And, what firearms?
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  #53  
Old 01-21-2008, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottymouth310 View Post
I'm shooting at 300-500yds. do you think 165gr is to light?
If this load is for you AI .308 you recently posted a photo of, at least go to 168 if under 600 yards and 175 smk for anything after that. Find a load that your rifle likes, try Black Hills Match or FGMM and try and duplicate it.

Here is some good reading for the .308 that may help you!

http://www.ftbe.be/pdf/308%20Winches...ge%20Guide.pdf
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  #54  
Old 01-24-2008, 8:42 PM
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Thanks guys!

QuickOnTheDraw: Yes, I have this bookmarked and reading it daily.... right now it's my bible.

Jicko: Purpose, Target shooting w/AI, AE 24"

rksimple: I'm leaning toward the Lapua 155 or Sierra 168 but I'm a bit scared becus my lymans 47th edition has no table for 155gr....

couple questions?
does the brass case really make a differeance?
does boat tail have better accuracy than flat base?
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  #55  
Old 01-24-2008, 9:31 PM
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Originally Posted by pottymouth310 View Post
does boat tail have better accuracy than flat base?
Flat base has better accuracy, but boattail flies flatter over longer ranges.
The slight accuracy detriment is more than made-up for with the better BC.

100yd benchrest shooters shoot flatbase.
Precision rifle and longrange shooter all shoot boattails.
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  #56  
Old 01-24-2008, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottymouth310 View Post
Thanks guys!

QuickOnTheDraw: Yes, I have this bookmarked and reading it daily.... right now it's my bible.

Jicko: Purpose, Target shooting w/AI, AE 24"

rksimple: I'm leaning toward the Lapua 155 or Sierra 168 but I'm a bit scared becus my lymans 47th edition has no table for 155gr....

couple questions?
does the brass case really make a differeance?
does boat tail have better accuracy than flat base?
rule of thumb. if you have enough experience in shooting a certain load (match), you'll be fine. there are slight advantages of shooting 155 scenars or 175smk over the plain ol' 168s, buy if you really know your rifle and your load, you'll be fine and kick *** reguardless.
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  #57  
Old 01-25-2008, 8:19 AM
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300-500yds 168SMK seems to be the favourite.

Some of us had shot 168SMK out to 1000yds without any issue, but seemingly, more people will tell you that if you want something that is versatile all the way up to 1000yds, go with 175SMK or 155Scenar.

So, if you only sticking with your intended 300-500yds, go with SMK and fine tune it until it is "perfect", then u are good to go. It WILL give you the performance you like.
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  #58  
Old 01-25-2008, 8:26 AM
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Quote:
Some of us had shot 168SMK out to 1000yds without any issue
Your really pushing it out a 1000 with the 168, thats a lot of elevation you might run out of scope at 1000. 175 gives you better numbers specially out to 1000.
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  #59  
Old 01-25-2008, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottymouth310 View Post
Thanks guys!

QuickOnTheDraw: Yes, I have this bookmarked and reading it daily.... right now it's my bible.

Jicko: Purpose, Target shooting w/AI, AE 24"

rksimple: I'm leaning toward the Lapua 155 or Sierra 168 but I'm a bit scared becus my lymans 47th edition has no table for 155gr....

couple questions?
does the brass case really make a differeance?
does boat tail have better accuracy than flat base?
...310,
My Sierra manual lumps the 155's in with the 150 grain bullets. A start load for the 168 will work as a start load for a 155. The lapua 155's are almost as long as a Sierra 175; make sure you're not into the rifling lands with your bullets - a Stoney Point type guage helps. The 168 was designed for 300 meter shooting and was originally called the "International" by Sierra. There is some controversy regarding its' ability, or lack thereof, out to 1,000 yards.
Brass can make a difference. My Winchester brass is about 12 grains lighter than my Lapua, which generally translates into different case capacity. Less capacity can equal increased pressure; I drop my load about .5 grains with Lapua cases.
For your 300 - 500 yard sharpshooting, I don't think you'll find a better bullet than the Sierra 168, but the various 155's from Hornady, Lapua, Nosler, et al will work fine. As for flat base v. boat tail accuracy, can't really say. My vote goes for BT, but I shoot from 800 - 1,000 yards where they have an advantage.
Enjoy loading and shooting, and if you ever want to try out beyond 600 yards, PM me.

Regards,
Mike (back to work now...)
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  #60  
Old 01-25-2008, 8:58 PM
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Quote:
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...310,
My Sierra manual lumps the 155's in with the 150 grain bullets. A start load for the 168 will work as a start load for a 155. The lapua 155's are almost as long as a Sierra 175; make sure you're not into the rifling lands with your bullets - a Stoney Point type guage helps. The 168 was designed for 300 meter shooting and was originally called the "International" by Sierra. There is some controversy regarding its' ability, or lack thereof, out to 1,000 yards.
Brass can make a difference. My Winchester brass is about 12 grains lighter than my Lapua, which generally translates into different case capacity. Less capacity can equal increased pressure; I drop my load about .5 grains with Lapua cases.
For your 300 - 500 yard sharpshooting, I don't think you'll find a better bullet than the Sierra 168, but the various 155's from Hornady, Lapua, Nosler, et al will work fine. As for flat base v. boat tail accuracy, can't really say. My vote goes for BT, but I shoot from 800 - 1,000 yards where they have an advantage.
Enjoy loading and shooting, and if you ever want to try out beyond 600 yards, PM me.

Regards,
Mike (back to work now...)
Wow.... cool thanks Mike, I'll try that. thanks for the info.
I also notice alot of people talk highly about Hodgdon powder, what do you guys think? I'm thinking of trying it. Do you know anywhere in SoCal that sell Hodgdon? Or any place that has a good selection of powered and primer? the hazmat fee they charge when you buy online is just ridiculous...

Last edited by pottymouth310; 01-26-2008 at 8:57 PM.. Reason: added more
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  #61  
Old 01-27-2008, 9:09 PM
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Can anyone explain why both 175 SMK and 155 Scenar apparently are better suited for longer ranges out to 1K yards than the 168 SMK? I'm assuming this is because they both are more easily loaded to stay supersonic at 1K yds, but what confuses me is that the 168 SMK is obviously between the weights of the 175 and the 155, so what makes it harder to keep that bullet supersonic out to 1K?
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  #62  
Old 01-27-2008, 9:48 PM
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175 SMK and 155 Scenar have higher BC's than the 168 SMK.

155 SMK: 0.450
168 SMK: 0.462
175 SMK: 0.496
155 Scenar: 0.508

You can drive the 155gr bullets considerably faster than the 168's and 175's too.
I'm shooting 155 SMK's at 2875fps and I still have some margin to warm up the load some more.
Once I run out of these SMK's, I'll move over to the 155 Scenars I bought a little while ago.
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  #63  
Old 01-27-2008, 10:00 PM
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Randall, thanks! That makes sense. I hadn't thought of checking their respective BC's.

I have one other question your reply brought up in my mind.

You wrote, "I'm shooting 155 SMK's at 2875fps and I still have some margin to warm up the load some more."

How do you know how much further you can push your load? Is the pressure generated by the load combination (bullet, powder type, powder charge, etc.) the main determining factor of the safety margin?

Are you using a ballistic program to help determine how fast you can push the 155 Scenar before getting into the danger zone?

I've been working up my loads with the data from a couple of sources of loading manuals, powder manufacturer data, etc., and I then chrono my loads as I work them up. I've been well shy of max loads, but I have no real idea of what the pressures of my loads are. I've just been going on the the info from the loading manuals, and trusting that since I am well below max loads, and in the case of 168 SMK, I am dialed in to right around 2650 - 2680 fps, that I am okay in the safety department.

I'd love to have a ballistic program, but being a Mac computer guy, I'm not sure there's really anything available. I really don't want to load Windows on my Mac, so that's not the solution for me.
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  #64  
Old 01-27-2008, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nom de Guerre View Post
Can anyone explain why both 175 SMK and 155 Scenar apparently are better suited for longer ranges out to 1K yards than the 168 SMK? I'm assuming this is because they both are more easily loaded to stay supersonic at 1K yds, but what confuses me is that the 168 SMK is obviously between the weights of the 175 and the 155, so what makes it harder to keep that bullet supersonic out to 1K?
The 155 scenar is lighter then the 175 and 168s but is a much longer bullet. The BC is higher and the ability to push them so much faster makes it a really nice bullet to reach those extreme distances.
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nom de Guerre View Post
Randall, thanks! That makes sense. I hadn't thought of checking their respective BC's.

I have one other question your reply brought up in my mind.

You wrote, "I'm shooting 155 SMK's at 2875fps and I still have some margin to warm up the load some more."

How do you know how much further you can push your load? Is the pressure generated by the load combination (bullet, powder type, powder charge, etc.) the main determining factor of the safety margin?

Are you using a ballistic program to help determine how fast you can push the 155 Scenar before getting into the danger zone?

I've been working up my loads with the data from a couple of sources of loading manuals, powder manufacturer data, etc., and I then chrono my loads as I work them up. I've been well shy of max loads, but I have no real idea of what the pressures of my loads are. I've just been going on the the info from the loading manuals, and trusting that since I am well below max loads, and in the case of 168 SMK, I am dialed in to right around 2650 - 2680 fps, that I am okay in the safety department.

I'd love to have a ballistic program, but being a Mac computer guy, I'm not sure there's really anything available. I really don't want to load Windows on my Mac, so that's not the solution for me.
All rifles are different so I wouldn't really use the ballistics programs to determine the safety of a rounds. That being said quick load will give you an idea if the load is in the danger zone. The primers can tell you a lot about if you are going to hot. I haven't chronoed my new scenar load but I an guessing it is in the 2750 fps range. I should be able to get it to over 2900 fps with out any issues.

Popped primers, cratering primers, sticky extraction are a couple of things to look for. That tells you that you went to far and to back down a little.
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:11 PM
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BTW just cause you can safely push a bullet really fast doesn't mean you should. My 175 smk load in my old savage would loose accuracy when it went to fast. 2700 fps was about as fast as that gun would shoot them accurately.
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:22 PM
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Thanks PRC. I know that the programs are just for approximations, and you need to work up carefully and test loads incrementally, for a specific gun. Still, it would be nice to have that as an extra tool.

I have read a lot about the signs of overpressure to look for (including the ones you mentioned), but haven't come anywhere near with the loads I've worked up so far, so I haven't seen any of those signs first hand. There was a thread on a forum I read recently that had some pics of cases/primers that exhibited some signs of overpressure. It was a pretty good read, and showed clearly what some signs can look like.

Thanks too for the words of wisdom regarding accuracy not always being at or near max velocities. That is something I've read again and again. Ideally, I would like to play around with working up 175 SMK & 155 Scenar loads with the intention of reaching out to 1K. I'll obviously try to get the MV 's up high enough to get out to 1K while maintaining accuracy and staying in the safety zone well under Max charge. All I need is a little free time and some better weather!
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Nom de Guerre View Post
I have read a lot about the signs of overpressure to look for (including the ones you mentioned), but haven't come anywhere near with the loads I've worked up so far, so I haven't seen any of those signs first hand.
Keep pushing a little bit at a time.
The signs will arrive before you blow anything up.
Then back down until the signs go back away.

Beware of developing loads in cold weather as they will get hotter as the weather warms up.
MUCH safer to develop loads in summer and use them in winter as you will just be losing some pressure/velocity...
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nom de Guerre View Post
You wrote, "I'm shooting 155 SMK's at 2875fps and I still have some margin to warm up the load some more."

How do you know how much further you can push your load? Is the pressure generated by the load combination (bullet, powder type, powder charge, etc.) the main determining factor of the safety margin?

Are you using a ballistic program to help determine how fast you can push the 155 Scenar before getting into the danger zone?
A combination of Quickload, chronographing, shooting "pressure series" in small steps to check for signs and accuracy and just past experience in all these things.

It happens that Quickload predicts velocities within about 15fps of what my chrono reads so it has to be DAMN close on pressure too.
Comparing loads that show pressure signs like flat primers, ejector swipes and hard bolt lift also shows the loads to be over-pressure in Quickload.
These experiences have lead me to trust quickload a lot because I know how to manipulate it to get good data out of it that happens to be matching actual measured field conditions.
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Old 01-28-2008, 2:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pottymouth310 View Post
Wow.... cool thanks Mike, I'll try that. thanks for the info.
I also notice alot of people talk highly about Hodgdon powder, what do you guys think? I'm thinking of trying it. Do you know anywhere in SoCal that sell Hodgdon? Or any place that has a good selection of powered and primer? the hazmat fee they charge when you buy online is just ridiculous...
Hodgdon gets most of my powder money for rifle and pistol. Their "extreme" powders are more consistent velocity and pressure wise than than many other extruded and ball type powders. I shoot Palma winter and summer in probably a 90 degree temperature spread and have no pressure problems with what Hodgdon calls a max load. I believe the Reloading Store at the Angeles Range has Hodgdon in stock; while I buy bulk powder online, I get my pound cans (pistol) at Angeles. Find a three other shooters and each go in for an right pound jug; five bucks worth of hazmat per jug.

it's 0309 and still raining...
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Old 01-28-2008, 6:07 AM
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the Reloading Store at the Angeles Range has Hodgdon in stock; ..
thanks, can you tell me were Angeles Range store is? Is that what they're called?
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Old 01-28-2008, 7:32 AM
Nom de Guerre Nom de Guerre is offline
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thanks, can you tell me were Angeles Range store is? Is that what they're called?
It's at the Angeles Shooting Range, just off the 210 (Osbourne Exit) which is just East of the 118. They're open Wed - Sun

http://www.angelesranges.com/

http://www.reloadingstore.com/
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Old 01-28-2008, 7:50 AM
Nom de Guerre Nom de Guerre is offline
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Randall, thanks for the info. That's good advice about working up loads in the Summer. I'll have to re-chrono and possibly tweaks my 168 SMK load as the weather warms, since I did develop that one last month.

Quickload sounds pretty good, I wish it came ported for Mac. Oh well.
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  #74  
Old 01-28-2008, 1:16 PM
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Hey all, just dipping my feet into loading .308 (Have a JP Rifles AR-10 clone on order). I'm planning to use Varget, CCI #34, and Milsurp brass. Now I just need to pick a bullet.

I'm interested in the 155 Scenars but looking at Powder Valley they have a Silver Jacket round and a regular round. What's the difference? Are the SJ's worth the price or is it just cosmetic?
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Old 01-28-2008, 1:21 PM
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sj is supposed to fowl your barrel less, but it's not worth it. get the regular scenars.

Last edited by PistolPete75; 01-28-2008 at 1:31 PM..
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Old 01-28-2008, 8:50 PM
Ahhnother8 Ahhnother8 is offline
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In MY experience.....

Many/most LR shooters that I know have trouble getting the 154 Lapua's to shoot well. I am now on my fourth barrel in less than three years, and they have ALL shot the Lapua's very well. But, they are all 30" Krieger .3065", 1 in 13 twist, chambered with the exact same custom reamer each time. The 155 Sierra's on the other hand, are EXTREMELY forgiving, and shoot very well. They just give up a little BC. I shot quite a few of them last year, and they group great. They are likely the best bullet to start with for those new to reloading or shooting the .308. Just a thought.

Use Varget!!!!!!!!!!! It is THE tried and proven powder for .308. No need to experiment here.

Use a slightly large, thick-cupped, primer, CCI BR, Fed 210M, Russian, etc...

If shooting LR, get the max velocity possible. Almost without exception, groups and Std. Dev. gets great just before pressure problems arise. Then things get ugly. There is nothing wrong with pushing the bullets hard...they like it. If you shoot them slow, the wind WILL tear you up!!

Just my .02 cents worth...

Lane
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:18 PM
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The 155 Sierra's on the other hand, are EXTREMELY forgiving, and shoot very well.
Use Varget!!!!!!!!!!! It is THE tried and proven powder for .308.
If shooting LR, get the max velocity possible.
My load:
155 SMK moly coated
46.5gr Varget
Federal 210 Primers
Federal Brass

2866 avg velocity from my 26" barrel and no pressure signs whatsoever.
23moa elevation from a 100yd zero to do cold bore hits at 850yds.

Works for me.
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Old 01-29-2008, 1:36 PM
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Thanks for the input. I'm going to be shooting a 20" 1:10 JP rifles barrel. I'm new to LR shooting but my needs are only out to 300-400 yards for 3-gun competition. That's not to say I won't want to push my skills and my rifle further but it's hard for me to get to ranges >200 yards from the Bay Area.

I've already acquired some Varget and CCI #34's. I like the #41's for my AR so I figured I'd stick w/ the mil-spec primers.

The Sierra's are a tiny bit more expensive than the Lapua's but at this point I'll take all the forgiveness I can get
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Old 01-30-2008, 7:34 AM
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anyone know anyplace here in LA that sells chronographs?

thanks,
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Old 01-30-2008, 8:02 AM
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anyone know anyplace here in LA that sells chronographs?

thanks,
Turners usually has them - call around and see which store has 'em.
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