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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 11-02-2012, 3:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
You can't demand a law enforcement agency break the law to avoid a lawsuit.

-Brandon
they can un-take it they were just borrowing it
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  #42  
Old 11-02-2012, 3:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
they can un-take it they were just borrowing it
Nope. It was a seizure. Their own press release confirms it.

California Penal Code Section 33800 states:

Quote:
(a) When a firearm is taken into custody by a law enforcement officer, the officer shall issue the person who possessed the firearm a receipt describing the firearm, and listing any serial number or other identification on the firearm.
(b) The receipt shall indicate where the firearm may be recovered, any applicable time limit for recovery, and the date after which the owner or possessor may recover the firearm pursuant to Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 33850).
Section 33850:
Quote:
Any person who claims title to any firearm that is in the custody or control of a court or law enforcement agency and who wishes to have the firearm returned shall make application for a determination by the Department of Justice as to whether the applicant is eligible to possess a firearm.
Section 33855:
Quote:
No law enforcement agency or court that has taken custody of any firearm may return the firearm to any individual unless the following requirements are satisfied [].
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  #43  
Old 11-02-2012, 3:58 PM
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Originally Posted by hnoppenberger View Post
I just want to know if the cop stole legally owned property, making him a thief, why is he not arrested and charged?
Qualified immunity. Remember that for a cop, but not joe citizen, a claim of "honest mistake" is a shield against prosecution. Even if the seizure was in fact malicious and calculated to harm the owner (LEGR fees, legal costs, and time spent without possession) I doubt you could prove it.
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  #44  
Old 11-02-2012, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by deadcoyote View Post
Hey, there's plenty of Humboldt folks on here. While I know nothing of this incident, you have to be an idiot to bring an AR to the Arcata plaza on halloween.
I certainly was a Humboldt person on Calguns, until I left Humboldt of course.

The plaza is a pretty chill place, and I walked around with a fencing foil there, and if I had had a sword I would have carried that. I probably wouldn't have walked around there with an AR, but if it wasn't illegal then I hope CGF can help this fellow.
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  #45  
Old 11-02-2012, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
It's borderline unethical for an attorney and ludicrous for any serious person or organization to demand that a law enforcement agency do something illegal (let alone to avoid litigation).

-Brandon
Could such an arrangement somehow result in a conspiracy charge?
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  #46  
Old 11-02-2012, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Nope. It was a seizure. Their own press release confirms it.

California Penal Code Section 33800 states:



Section 33850:

Section 33855:
I understand this, but how many times has someone been told they're under arrest, then been told later they were only detained.
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  #47  
Old 11-02-2012, 8:22 PM
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I have a curious question...lets say this leads to a lawsuit. Why not sit the other side down once it starts and they realise they are going to loose. Then offer them a deal, lawsuit gets dropped, IF the offending officer is dismissed from the force and bared from being rehired? Do that in enough lawsuits, and the cops are going to get the hint...back off or you loose your job.
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  #48  
Old 11-02-2012, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Not quite, and you're assuming they are just giving him his gun back. Not only was it nearly certainly an unconstitutional seizure of lawfully-possessed property, but they cannot give the gun back without the gun owner spending money on a LEGR and travelling to the PD property room to retrive the firearms, as well as suffering loss of use for the time period beginning with the taking and ending when it is returned.

-Brandon
Can he report it stolen?

Hopefully it gets cleared up real quick.
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  #49  
Old 11-02-2012, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by hnoppenberger View Post
I just want to know if the cop stole legally owned property, making him a thief, why is he not arrested and charged?
Because they are in powerful unions, among other things.
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  #50  
Old 11-02-2012, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by email View Post
Conversely, if he had started shooting people, the police would be blamed for not taking it.

Freedom vs Security

I say let em all have guns.
I think the finer point here are that the police often times seem to cook up the law on the spot, and then often times get away with it too.

They wanted to charge him with a felony? Is that threatening or what? You know what that means... no more gun rights, right?
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  #51  
Old 11-02-2012, 8:45 PM
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The plaza is a dangerous place on holloween
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  #52  
Old 11-02-2012, 8:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Overbear View Post
I have a curious question...lets say this leads to a lawsuit. Why not sit the other side down once it starts and they realise they are going to loose. Then offer them a deal, lawsuit gets dropped, IF the offending officer is dismissed from the force and bared from being rehired? Do that in enough lawsuits, and the cops are going to get the hint...back off or you loose your job.
This has already been covered to some extent with the mention of 'qualified immunity'. Basically, if a public servant makes a mistake, they can say 'oops' and still keep their job. What is more likely to happen is that a settlement would be reached and the city would be required to provide training in what is and what isnt an assault weapon, which is the problem Arcata PD seems to have.

(And on another note 'loose' is why we have string attached between a child's tooth and a doorknob for. 'Lose' is what we get when we dont win.)
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  #53  
Old 11-02-2012, 8:51 PM
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OK am I retarded? I thought open carry of long arms was illegal now?
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  #54  
Old 11-02-2012, 8:53 PM
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OK am I retarded? I thought open carry of long arms was illegal now?
Not until January 1st, 2013.
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Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. Bastiat

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  #55  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:18 AM
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  #56  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by email View Post
Conversely, if he had started shooting people, the police would be blamed for not taking it.

Freedom vs Security

I say let em all have guns.
We all respect your right to have an opinion.

We all respect your right to have feelings.

Our rights don't end where your feelings begin. They never have, they never will.

Go find the X in the top right hand corner of this window, and click it.
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  #57  
Old 11-03-2012, 1:12 AM
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  #58  
Old 11-03-2012, 1:12 AM
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I love it when bullies get their @sses handed to them. Get em' Brandon!
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  #59  
Old 11-03-2012, 5:53 AM
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since when has the law mattered?

when determined there was not an illegal firearm, or an illegal act committed, it should have been handed back to him.
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  #60  
Old 11-03-2012, 7:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
You either support the right to own and carry a legally configured rifle or you do not-

If rights were predicated upon the use of flawless judgement, we would either not exercise them in the abundance of caution or abandon those with whom we disagree. That is where we as gunowners are being used against each other. Ante up or anti up. You decide.

This
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  #61  
Old 11-03-2012, 8:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
This has already been covered to some extent with the mention of 'qualified immunity'. Basically, if a public servant makes a mistake, they can say 'oops' and still keep their job. What is more likely to happen is that a settlement would be reached and the city would be required to provide training in what is and what isnt an assault weapon, which is the problem Arcata PD seems to have.
I have not noticed anything stated about the actual reason the rifle was seized. It seems to be implied, or understood, but where is the actual reason?
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  #62  
Old 11-03-2012, 8:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 5thgen4runner View Post
I want to log on to CG one day and See a thread titled "Cop seized for public safety".
I hope you mean a LEO instead of a COP. Is hate to have my COP seized. COPs are pretty expensive, rare and off roster handguns.
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  #63  
Old 11-03-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
I have not noticed anything stated about the actual reason the rifle was seized. It seems to be implied, or understood, but where is the actual reason?
APD believes that the seized rifle is an 'assault weapon', in spite of the presence of a bullet button and non-detachable magazine.
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Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. Bastiat

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  #64  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Not until January 1st, 2013.
This is what they will use to say "we no longer need to retrain anyone". We all know this will go no where before that date.

BUT "we're winning"
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  #65  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:12 PM
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Hopefully the rifle's owner was not masked or had his identity disguised by a costume as that is illegal when posessing a firearm in public.
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  #66  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:16 PM
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Hopefully the rifle's owner was not masked or had his identity disguised by a costume as that is illegal when posessing a firearm in public.
I stopped at a country store for a soda while turkey hunting and I was told by a LEO that my camouflage makeup was illegal.
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  #67  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by VaderSpade View Post
I stopped at a country store for a soda while turkey hunting and I was told by a LEO that my camouflage makeup was illegal.
What? You just forgot to say "trick or treat"
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  #68  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by VaderSpade View Post
I stopped at a country store for a soda while turkey hunting and I was told by a LEO that my camouflage makeup was illegal.

Half of the population has an IQ which is lower than the average. Some of those manage to become LEOs.
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Last edited by CSACANNONEER; 11-03-2012 at 11:48 PM..
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  #69  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Half of the population has an IQ which is lower than the average. Some of those manage to become LEOs.
I wonder what vaders, LEO who he encountered would say to a playboy playmate full of make up in that same store?
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  #70  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by VaderSpade View Post
This is what they will use to say "we no longer need to retrain anyone". We all know this will go no where before that date.

BUT "we're winning"
Hm.....let's list all the ways we're winning.....

*You can own an OLL in CA with little fear of being arrested (and know that if you are arrested, CGF will sue every motherf**ker in the room)
*You can use that OLL with a bullet button instead of having to do something stupid like weld the magazine to the receiver.
*You can configure that OLL in a featureless setup with things like grip wraps, MMGs, hammerheads, etc
*You can buy rebuild kits and use them to repair your lawfully possessed pre-2000 magazines, to permanently make 10 rd magazines, or keep them for use out of state
*SB249 was resoundingly defeated by a grassroots coalition
*If you live in Sacramento county, you can now get a LTC with "self-defense" as your good cause
*You have a fundamental enumerated constitutional right to own firearms for lawful purposes, including self defense (Heller)
*That right is incorporated against the states (McDonald)
*You can get off-roster handguns via SSE sales
*You can get AR/AK/etc pistols via SSE + bullet buttons


Woe is me, we must be losing or something!

Shall I go on? :P
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  #71  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:55 PM
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To those myopic few who think this is about open carry, broaden your horizons and read Amend 4.
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  #72  
Old 11-03-2012, 1:05 PM
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Originally Posted by GettoPhilosopher View Post
Hm.....let's list all the ways we're winning.....

*You can own an OLL in CA with little fear of being arrested (and know that if you are arrested, CGF will sue every motherf**ker in the room)
*You can use that OLL with a bullet button instead of having to do something stupid like weld the magazine to the receiver.
*You can configure that OLL in a featureless setup with things like grip wraps, MMGs, hammerheads, etc
*You can buy rebuild kits and use them to repair your lawfully possessed pre-2000 magazines, to permanently make 10 rd magazines, or keep them for use out of state
*SB249 was resoundingly defeated by a grassroots coalition
*If you live in Sacramento county, you can now get a LTC with "self-defense" as your good cause
*You have a fundamental enumerated constitutional right to own firearms for lawful purposes, including self defense (Heller)
*That right is incorporated against the states (McDonald)
*You can get off-roster handguns via SSE sales
*You can get AR/AK/etc pistols via SSE + bullet buttons


Woe is me, we must be losing or something!

Shall I go on? :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
To those myopic few who think this is about open carry, broaden your horizons and read Amend 4.


CGN needs a LIKE button next to the Quote button.....
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  #73  
Old 11-03-2012, 1:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GettoPhilosopher View Post
Hm.....let's list all the ways we're winning.....

*You can own an OLL in CA with little fear of being arrested (and know that if you are arrested, CGF will sue every motherf**ker in the room)
*You can use that OLL with a bullet button instead of having to do something stupid like weld the magazine to the receiver.
*You can configure that OLL in a featureless setup with things like grip wraps, MMGs, hammerheads, etc
*You can buy rebuild kits and use them to repair your lawfully possessed pre-2000 magazines, to permanently make 10 rd magazines, or keep them for use out of state
*SB249 was resoundingly defeated by a grassroots coalition
*If you live in Sacramento county, you can now get a LTC with "self-defense" as your good cause
*You have a fundamental enumerated constitutional right to own firearms for lawful purposes, including self defense (Heller)
*That right is incorporated against the states (McDonald)
*You can get off-roster handguns via SSE sales
*You can get AR/AK/etc pistols via SSE + bullet buttons


Woe is me, we must be losing or something!

Shall I go on? :P
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CGN needs a LIKE button next to the Quote button.....
Truth. (Quoted for)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
To those myopic few who think this is about open carry, broaden your horizons and read Amend 4.

Not to undermine your comment, (because I agree with it) but just playing devil's advocate- these same people would say that by openly carrying it, that the person with the rifle created the opportunity for a search under the plain view doctrine via 12031 inpection.

This too, would be wrong, because a 12031 loaded check is NOT a search, but a brief inspection to check just one thing- and that is whether the firearm is loaded per the statutory definition of what consitutes a loaded weapon.
  • Not to run a serial number.
  • Not to determine whether the weapon has been stolen or prove ownership.
  • Not to disassemble the weapon or alter the configuration or status into something that might be illegal under law.
  • Not to seize the weapon so that it's legality or illegality may be determined after review of the voluminuous statutes that might govern ownership and transport.

It's really simple regardless of whether or not you agree with the method of carry. This applies in this circumstance as well as shooting on public land.
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  #74  
Old 11-03-2012, 2:52 PM
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Another day, another firearm related abuse of the law by our government. Sigh.
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  #75  
Old 11-03-2012, 5:55 PM
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Last few times I drove through Arcata on the way to visit family and Pac_Nor Barreling in Brookings, I came to the conclusion that Arcata had transformed into a picturesque free-range asylum.

On one occasion the wife and I stopped for lunch, only to be surrounded by the cloying stench of marijuana smog, most likely coming from the "Joint" Drug Task Force incinerator, "Whoa dude, this is some town!" I remarked in my best Cheech Marin impersonation. We ate, but were still hungry when we left.

On another trip through, a long haired wimpy boy with a Humboldt State decal on his barely running Toyota pickup swerved at my truck, flipping me the bird and honking his horn. Must have been my "Drill American Oil" bumper sticker.

The entire town appeared to be making ready for a Grateful Dead concert, now at least I know where the population of Laytonville disappears to on EBT card replenishment days.

Carry an AR-15 in Arcata? Dude, it oughta be mandatory.
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Old 11-03-2012, 6:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrangler John View Post
Last few times I drove through Arcata on the way to visit family and Pac_Nor Barreling in Brookings, I came to the conclusion that Arcata had transformed into a picturesque free-range asylum.

On one occasion the wife and I stopped for lunch, only to be surrounded by the cloying stench of marijuana smog, most likely coming from the "Joint" Drug Task Force incinerator, "Whoa dude, this is some town!" I remarked in my best Cheech Marin impersonation. We ate, but were still hungry when we left.

On another trip through, a long haired wimpy boy with a Humboldt State decal on his barely running Toyota pickup swerved at my truck, flipping me the bird and honking his horn. Must have been my "Drill American Oil" bumper sticker.

The entire town appeared to be making ready for a Grateful Dead concert, now at least I know where the population of Laytonville disappears to on EBT card replenishment days.

Carry an AR-15 in Arcata? Dude, it oughta be mandatory.


-Brandon
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Old 11-03-2012, 6:20 PM
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Hm.....let's list all the ways we're winning.....

*You can own an OLL in CA with little fear of being arrested (and know that if you are arrested, CGF will sue every motherf**ker in the room)
*You can use that OLL with a bullet button instead of having to do something stupid like weld the magazine to the receiver.
*You can configure that OLL in a featureless setup with things like grip wraps, MMGs, hammerheads, etc
*You can buy rebuild kits and use them to repair your lawfully possessed pre-2000 magazines, to permanently make 10 rd magazines, or keep them for use out of state
*SB249 was resoundingly defeated by a grassroots coalition
*If you live in Sacramento county, you can now get a LTC with "self-defense" as your good cause
*You have a fundamental enumerated constitutional right to own firearms for lawful purposes, including self defense (Heller)
*That right is incorporated against the states (McDonald)
*You can get off-roster handguns via SSE sales
*You can get AR/AK/etc pistols via SSE + bullet buttons


Woe is me, we must be losing or something!

Shall I go on? :P
LOL. Most of those aren't "winning". They are "complying".
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no such thing as an OLL, and all AR-15s/AKs/etc. would be legal to own.
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no need for a bullet button, and standard mag releases would be legal on rifles with "evil" features.
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no need for magazine rebuilds, and standard cap magazines would be legal to purchase, sell, import, and manufacture. There'd be no such thing as "pre-ban."
*SB249, Sac LTC, Heller & McDonald - I'll give you those.
*If it weren't for the CA roster, we wouldn't have to search around for a FFL that does SSE on the particular firearm we want, and we'd be able to buy whatever handgun we wanted, without modification.
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Old 11-03-2012, 6:24 PM
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LOL. Most of those aren't "winning". They are "complying".
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no such thing as an OLL, and all AR-15s/AKs/etc. would be legal to own.
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no need for a bullet button, and standard mag releases would be legal on rifles with "evil" features.
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no need for magazine rebuilds, and standard cap magazines would be legal to purchase, sell, import, and manufacture. There'd be no such thing as "pre-ban."
*SB249, Sac LTC, Heller & McDonald - I'll give you those.
*If it weren't for the CA roster, we wouldn't have to search around for a FFL that does SSE on the particular firearm we want, and we'd be able to buy whatever handgun we wanted, without modification.
So, who is doing the heavy lifting in creating all the work arounds, litigation, and advocacy?
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Old 11-03-2012, 6:26 PM
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I see. So given the history of violence at this location you wouldnt want anyone but police or military armed there?



It is more beneficial to demand that the police follow the law than to establish precedent that they can avoid litigation by handing over wrongfully seized property with a pat on the back and a 'sorry for the trouble'.
open carry in most cases is not a deterrent.

as to how effective that person could bring the weapon into a fight- have you ever tried doing a fast mag change with a BB AR? one where the weapon was slung and not in your hands and ready to go?

the standards for shooting someone is if they are a threat within 25ft. Do you think you could beat someone rushing you at that distance?

I get the 2A angle, but I think there was an big lack of good judgement in this particular incident. It doesnt help expand gun rights by doing that. Sheeple are terrified of Airsoft guns already....
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Old 11-03-2012, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lilro View Post
LOL. Most of those aren't "winning". They are "complying".
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no such thing as an OLL, and all AR-15s/AKs/etc. would be legal to own.
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no need for a bullet button, and standard mag releases would be legal on rifles with "evil" features.
*If it weren't for the CA AWB, there'd be no need for magazine rebuilds, and standard cap magazines would be legal to purchase, sell, import, and manufacture. There'd be no such thing as "pre-ban."
*SB249, Sac LTC, Heller & McDonald - I'll give you those.
*If it weren't for the CA roster, we wouldn't have to search around for a FFL that does SSE on the particular firearm we want, and we'd be able to buy whatever handgun we wanted, without modification.
The AWB and the roster, are ongoing projects of The Calguns Foundation... The 10 round magazine limit is a future project....

SEE: Richards v Harris & Pena v. Cid Justice moves slowly, but it does move....

If it weren't for the efforts of CGF Board Members, you wouldn't have OLL or bullet buttons at all.


All it takes is DONATIONS to keep moving forward.....
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