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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 10-31-2012, 3:53 PM
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Default DarkSoul's billet "80%" AR lower progress pics

We have been feverishly working on our own billet 80% AR lower for a few months now. We must collectively have 300+ hours into this project so far, from the initial 3D modeling done by me, and all the programming in the 5 axis done by my accomplices Danny and Brandon in the machine shop. So far we utilize approximately 45 different tools. The first op is done in a 3 axis vertical mill, then ops 2, 3, 4, 5 are done in the 5 axis (36 tools there) and then the final op will be back into the 3 axis vertical. Run time is pretty long because of all the detail work and the overall complexity of creating this from scratch.

Today we did the final sorting of the magwell, which was really the final step involved to wrap up the 5 axis mill work. We will run another one through the 5 axis to be sure, and then start the fixturing on the 3 axis vert probably in the next day or so, and hope to be able to test fire one next week /fingers crossed

Here are a few teaser pics for you all-

This is the "final" rendering. There have been some small aesthetic changes made here and there, but overall its still pretty close.





And this is it after completion of ops 1-5








This is still a setup piece, so there are a few errors on it, but overall, its pretty darn close, less the deburring of course.

These will not be cheap, you can expect them to be up around the $175 mark +/- a bit once we determine the final run time, and reprice material (we realized that we can start with a smaller block of aluminum), but once you see one, you will see why the high price, the detail is amazing, and the fit and finish will rival anything currently on the market, except this is a DIY .

I expect to receive our letter of determination from the ATF any day. I have an internal tracking number from the ATF, and I spoke with a gentleman there about 2 weeks ago who informed me that I should have it in my hands very soon.

Stay tuned, I will continue to update with more pics and progress report as we get closer to them being 100% finished.
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  #2  
Old 10-31-2012, 3:58 PM
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Looks really good man! What software did you use to model the lower and how long did it take to model?
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  #3  
Old 10-31-2012, 4:05 PM
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Looks great bro ! I have an appointment with you on Monday morning . Will you have one there so I can take a look at it ?
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Old 10-31-2012, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroEngi View Post
Looks really good man! What software did you use to model the lower and how long did it take to model?
I use SolidEdge by Siemens. I would say with all the revisions and such that I did, probably around 40 hours.

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Looks great bro ! I have an appointment with you on Monday morning . Will you have one there so I can take a look at it ?
Well I can show you its progress over at the next door shop where its running
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  #5  
Old 10-31-2012, 6:00 PM
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Does the 175 $ include the cost of the final steps ? Or is it 175$ for the lower plus 60$ for the millwork ?
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Old 10-31-2012, 6:12 PM
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Looks great. The larger the magwell opening with a nice taper or radius the better. What jigs will these work with and will there be a price break on a 10 or more quantity? Keep up the good work!
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Old 10-31-2012, 6:44 PM
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That looks cool but I have one question and four suggestions:

What are those two things above and below the mag release button pocket?

A quality billet 80% in 7075 is clearly worth the asking price but I think you need more to differentiate from what Quentin offers.

One feature I like that Quentin has is a screw in bolt hold open retaining pin, if that is easy to incorporate I think it adds value.

Other lowers have screws to fit the rear takedown pin lug which seems like a good idea unless you make billet uppers that perfectly fit your lowers.

One feature I would pay more for is an ambi bolt hold open so you don't have to use a BAD lever or whatever (designing it to work well with a Norgon ambi mag catch would be a good idea too).

Lastly, maybe add some type of serrated texture to the front of the mag well for positive grip.

That's what I would like to see, give your customers features rather than just a nice looking integrated trigger guard.
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  #8  
Old 10-31-2012, 6:53 PM
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Purely awesome!!!
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  #9  
Old 10-31-2012, 6:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
That looks cool but I have one question and four suggestions:

What are those two things above and below the mag release button pocket?

A quality billet 80% in 7075 is clearly worth the asking price but I think you need more to differentiate from what Quentin offers.

One feature I like that Quentin has is a screw in bolt hold open retaining pin, if that is easy to incorporate I think it adds value.

Other lowers have screws to fit the rear takedown pin lug which seems like a good idea unless you make billet uppers that perfectly fit your lowers.

One feature I would pay more for is an ambi bolt hold open so you don't have to use a BAD lever or whatever (designing it to work well with a Norgon ambi mag catch would be a good idea too).

Lastly, maybe add some type of serrated texture to the front of the mag well for positive grip.

That's what I would like to see, give your customers features rather than just a nice looking integrated trigger guard.

I agree!

Plus, I'm hoping theres going to be a great Calguns price when you start rolling these out.
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  #10  
Old 10-31-2012, 8:22 PM
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looking great!!! anticipating these and another build party!
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  #11  
Old 10-31-2012, 8:48 PM
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Wash, I am with you on the threaded bolt catch pin. Also the threaded detent for the selector is nice.
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  #12  
Old 10-31-2012, 8:53 PM
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I assisted with input during the designing phase, so I can add my $.02 to this design. There are many features on this lower that aren't immediately apparent from looking at the drawing with an untrained eye. Many of them, Dark Soul and I came up with at the same time, because we have lots of AR experience... not only by being training addicts, but also my 8 years experience as a Marine Corps armorer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
That looks cool but I have one question and four suggestions:

What are those two things above and below the mag release button pocket?
Those two nubs provide a little extra protection from a mag release being accidentally hit and the mag dropped if the rifle is laid down on it's side. It happens in training. It's the same thing you see on a forged lower, the way there is a raised rim around the mag release button.

Quote:
A quality billet 80% in 7075 is clearly worth the asking price but I think you need more to differentiate from what Quentin offers.
We do. This lower is meant to be used. I think the Quentin Laser's are ok... but I don't like the aesthetic... a bit blocky. I personally think they've done some things right, and some that we can do better. Ours is certainly manufactured better, with much tighter tolerances.

Quote:
One feature I like that Quentin has is a screw in bolt hold open retaining pin, if that is easy to incorporate I think it adds value.
Ours does. The bolt catch roll pin is one of those flaws in the AR design that few have corrected. It's hard to see in the picture, but it's there.

Quote:
Other lowers have screws to fit the rear takedown pin lug which seems like a good idea unless you make billet uppers that perfectly fit your lowers.
Umm.. yeah, that's B.S. The number of ones with the AR-10 style takedown lug slack screw can fit on one hand. It's a neat idea, but totally unnecessary. If you run multiple uppers on your lower (like I do), it is a bad thing. A feature like that would be gimmicky. For the few people that actually NEED it, it's an easy retrofit with a drill press and tap set. Or of course, you can pop in an accuwedge for $3 from Brownells.

Quote:
One feature I would pay more for is an ambi bolt hold open so you don't have to use a BAD lever or whatever (designing it to work well with a Norgon ambi mag catch would be a good idea too).
An ambi bolt catch would be a neat feature. A fair bit of engineering has to go into the lower to make something like that work, and then you have something that's more on the specialized side versus a good general purpose lower meant for people who train.
If I'm not mistaken, the Norgon should work just fine on it. I have no idea what you're talking about there.

Quote:
Lastly, maybe add some type of serrated texture to the front of the mag well for positive grip.

That's what I would like to see, give your customers features rather than just a nice looking integrated trigger guard.
Dafuq? That's a stupid feature, and not how you're supposed to run an AR.
I'd suggest getting some training before talking out your *** here.
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  #13  
Old 10-31-2012, 8:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
That looks cool but I have one question and four suggestions:

What are those two things above and below the mag release button pocket?

A quality billet 80% in 7075 is clearly worth the asking price but I think you need more to differentiate from what Quentin offers.

One feature I like that Quentin has is a screw in bolt hold open retaining pin, if that is easy to incorporate I think it adds value.

Other lowers have screws to fit the rear takedown pin lug which seems like a good idea unless you make billet uppers that perfectly fit your lowers.

One feature I would pay more for is an ambi bolt hold open so you don't have to use a BAD lever or whatever (designing it to work well with a Norgon ambi mag catch would be a good idea too).

Lastly, maybe add some type of serrated texture to the front of the mag well for positive grip.

That's what I would like to see, give your customers features rather than just a nice looking integrated trigger guard.
+ 1,000,000

Those 2 things look like they may be some kind of finger rest maybe?

And at roughly $75 more than the QD, I'm hoping this will have all the nice features that QD sells their annodized 80s for and possibly more.

Looks great by the way!
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  #14  
Old 10-31-2012, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewbaca View Post
Does the 175 $ include the cost of the final steps ? Or is it 175$ for the lower plus 60$ for the millwork ?
We will be offering some sort of discount for people that purchase our lowers AND finish them at one of our build clinics, we are still finalizing the price on the lowers, so once we have a solid number there, we can figure out what we are going to do on the build clinic price, but we will do something

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtraxmc View Post
Looks great. The larger the magwell opening with a nice taper or radius the better. What jigs will these work with and will there be a price break on a 10 or more quantity? Keep up the good work!
They should work with the TM jigs, and we will be making our own jigs as well here eventually, since we dont have one completely finished yet, not sure honestly if it will work on the TM's, because we have added some features that MIGHT interfere. Should know next week for sure.

We will of course offer price breaks on quantity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deviljon View Post
+ 1,000,000

Those 2 things look like they may be some kind of finger rest maybe?
As Jason stated, they are simply there to keep you from accidently dropping you mag, or your mag being dropped accidently from banging against your gear/chest. If you have ever run your AR slung to your chest, while wearing a chest rig or even only against your body, if there was not something there to keep you from pushing the mag release on featureless rifle or on non-Cali guns, you would be dropping mags left and right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deviljon View Post
And at roughly $75 more than the QD, I'm hoping this will have all the nice features that QD sells their annodized 80s for and possibly more.

Looks great by the way!
Im not sure what all these features are you speak of? I have nothing against Quentins, we see a LOT of them come through our workshops, but IMO, they are very plain and blocky. We do in fact utilize the "screw in" bolt catch/release pin instead of a roll pin, have a larger flare around the mag well, and a few other small neat little features that we will go into more later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post

Lastly, maybe add some type of serrated texture to the front of the mag well for positive grip.
If you are shooting your AR using the front of your mag well as a grip, yer doin it wrong. The foregrip (quad rail) is where you off hand is suppose to be, as far out as possible to control the front of the gun. The texture that some companies put on the front of their magwells is a gimmick to sucker people in that think this is the right way to hold an AR, again, it isn't.
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  #15  
Old 10-31-2012, 9:25 PM
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We appreciate the info. I am in the process of setting up a 3-axis milll to do 80% lowers so a billet lower that would work with or on a TM jig with minimal mods would be great.
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  #16  
Old 10-31-2012, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
We will be offering some sort of discount for people that purchase our lowers AND finish them at one of our build clinics, we are still finalizing the price on the lowers, so once we have a solid number there, we can figure out what we are going to do on the build clinic price, but we will do something



They should work with the TM jigs, and we will be making our own jigs as well here eventually, since we dont have one completely finished yet, not sure honestly if it will work on the TM's, because we have added some features that MIGHT interfere. Should know next week for sure.

We will of course offer price breaks on quantity.



As Jason stated, they are simply there to keep you from accidently dropping you mag, or your mag being dropped accidently from banging against your gear/chest. If you have ever run your AR slung to your chest, while wearing a chest rig or even only against your body, if there was not something there to keep you from pushing the mag release on featureless rifle or on non-Cali guns, you would be dropping mags left and right.



Im not sure what all these features are you speak of? I have nothing against Quentins, we see a LOT of them come through our workshops, but IMO, they are very plain and blocky. We do in fact utilize the "screw in" bolt catch/release pin instead of a roll pin, have a larger flare around the mag well, and a few other small neat little features that we will go into more later.



If you are shooting your AR using the front of your mag well as a grip, yer doin it wrong. The foregrip (quad rail) is where you off hand is suppose to be, as far out as possible to control the front of the gun. The texture that some companies put on the front of their magwells is a gimmick to sucker people in that think this is the right way to hold an AR, again, it isn't.
Griping the Front of the Magwell is usefull when Clearing building or fighting in tight corners it helps alo with keeping your hand close to your body making manuevering easier. But since none of us are doing that its a moot point. A usefull feature for Mil/police but pointless unless you are a mall ninja.

Dark soul What area Is your shop located in I would love to get myself a few 80% and finish them to.
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Old 10-31-2012, 9:32 PM
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I didn't mean to say that your design won't work with a Norgon or other ambi mag release, I just mean it should be designed so that it works well with one.

I've never used one because they are expensive and most of my ARs are bullet buttoned, but it would suck if someone used your 80% as the basis for a $$$ build with a Norgon and then a rib in the mag well makes it difficult to depress or something.

I don't know if that is possible or even how well a Norgon works but consider it in the design is what I meant. If it's good to go, check it off the list, if it could be better, maybe make it better.

As for an ambi bolt catch, I think POF sells their ambi hardware. If it's not patent encumbered and you can second source the hardware (Hogans maybe), it would open up the market of people who want that feature and differentiate your product.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure your 80% is awesome as-is, there are just a lot of awesome things I don't spend my money on when cheaper "good enough" products exist.

Any way, those are suggestions. I hope you consider them because I think highly of my suggestions, but consideration can certainly lead to dismissing. If you think your product is already ideal in the areas I mentioned, you're done with the design phase (unless you hear about a real good idea).

Lastly, my most expensive AR is a pistol that I built from an 80%. I use a mag well grip because I don't want my hand too close the the muzzle.

Especially in California, people buying expensive 80%s are going to build them in to pistols so catering to that niche makes sense as long as the features don't hurt the quality of a rifle you could make with it.
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Old 10-31-2012, 9:32 PM
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Please keep your roll marks simple and minimal if you go that route.
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Old 10-31-2012, 9:35 PM
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well ok nice lower and good luck with your venture and might i suggest some PR training ?

also might want to look into running parties and making 80% at the same time and ask Richard over at KT how much it has cost him in legal fees ....
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Old 10-31-2012, 9:45 PM
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They don't need PR training, they know me and my suggestions are probably a lot of work to implement so I'm kind of being a pain in the *** (a service I provide free of charge).

They already run build parties and they have retained good legal council.
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Old 10-31-2012, 9:47 PM
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As far as 80% lowers go , less is more.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:01 PM
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well ok nice lower and good luck with your venture and might i suggest some PR training ?

also might want to look into running parties and making 80% at the same time and ask Richard over at KT how much it has cost him in legal fees ....
I am very much aware of the legality issues involved with manufacturing our own lowers AND doing build clinics/parties, and know better to sell during build days. I can assure you that there will be no sales of lowers on build clinic days.

We have Jason Davis on retainer, and use his services regularly, and we pretty much do nothing that can even be construed as dodgy without his advice and input.

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Originally Posted by fourtraxmc View Post
We appreciate the info. I am in the process of setting up a 3-axis milll to do 80% lowers so a billet lower that would work with or on a TM jig with minimal mods would be great.
I hear ya, and I am sure if it does not fit right into the TM fixtures, it will be a very simple mod to the fixtures, and I dont think will effect how the fixtures work with other types of 80% lowers. If I might ask, are you setting up a CNC or a manual? If you are running a CNC, I might suggest that you cut some aluminum soft jaws and make your own fixtures, I know that its a fair amount of work, but it pays off in the long run, one less thing to have to worry about moving or shifting during the milling process.
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Last edited by DarkSoul; 10-31-2012 at 10:07 PM..
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:03 PM
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Where are you located? I would love to purchase one of these lowers and go to a build clinic.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:29 AM
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Ok..put me on the I want to buy one when its done list. thanks.
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Old 11-01-2012, 6:11 AM
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Where are you located? I would love to purchase one of these lowers and go to a build clinic.
We are located in San Jose. We will have them for sale on our website when they ae ready to go, which will hopefully be in a few more weeks.

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Ok..put me on the I want to buy one when its done list. thanks.
We plan on continuing to run these for as long as there is demand, with that being said, I have no idea if they will sit on the shelf, or we can't produce fast enough for demand. Based on the current demand for 80% lowers, and that IMO there is a gap lacking for a higher end, very trick billet lower, I am staying optimistic that they will do well. Regardless, we will probably be offering up the first run strictly to CalGun members.
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Old 11-01-2012, 6:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason_2111 View Post
I assisted with input during the designing phase, so I can add my $.02 to this design. There are many features on this lower that aren't immediately apparent from looking at the drawing with an untrained eye. Many of them, Dark Soul and I came up with at the same time, because we have lots of AR experience... not only by being training addicts, but also my 8 years experience as a Marine Corps armorer.

Those two nubs provide a little extra protection from a mag release being accidentally hit and the mag dropped if the rifle is laid down on it's side. It happens in training. It's the same thing you see on a forged lower, the way there is a raised rim around the mag release button.

We do. This lower is meant to be used. I think the Quentin Laser's are ok... but I don't like the aesthetic... a bit blocky. I personally think they've done some things right, and some that we can do better. Ours is certainly manufactured better, with much tighter tolerances.

Ours does. The bolt catch roll pin is one of those flaws in the AR design that few have corrected. It's hard to see in the picture, but it's there.

Umm.. yeah, that's B.S. The number of ones with the AR-10 style takedown lug slack screw can fit on one hand. It's a neat idea, but totally unnecessary. If you run multiple uppers on your lower (like I do), it is a bad thing. A feature like that would be gimmicky. For the few people that actually NEED it, it's an easy retrofit with a drill press and tap set. Or of course, you can pop in an accuwedge for $3 from Brownells.

An ambi bolt catch would be a neat feature. A fair bit of engineering has to go into the lower to make something like that work, and then you have something that's more on the specialized side versus a good general purpose lower meant for people who train.
If I'm not mistaken, the Norgon should work just fine on it. I have no idea what you're talking about there.

Dafuq? That's a stupid feature, and not how you're supposed to run an AR.
I'd suggest getting some training before talking out your *** here.
Wow! Don't we have enough arrogant, self-righteous gun manufacturers? (H&K).
Why don't you just cut to the chase and say "You guys are too stupid to appreciate our awesome product so just keep your opinions to yourself!"

This is not a good way to promote a product that you want people to buy.
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Old 11-01-2012, 7:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Flintlock Tom View Post
Wow! Don't we have enough arrogant, self-righteous gun manufacturers? (H&K).
Why don't you just cut to the chase and say "You guys are too stupid to appreciate our awesome product so just keep your opinions to yourself!"

This is not a good way to promote a product that you want people to buy.
Not at all.
My tone came across a bit sharp... it's because I know Wash. He was asking about things that are already there, or have no place in our design.
I'll happily call BS when I see it, but I'm certainly not arrogant. How else could I wear a purple wig and mask everywhere I go?

The bottom line is that we could invest a ton more time and money into a lower design that has every conceivable gimmicky feature, but we'd end up with something far too expensive and not as appealing and usable to most folks.
We've been getting asked for weeks and weeks for a sneak peek by those that have attended our build workshops and been to the shop... so DarkSoul has put one up.
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Old 11-01-2012, 7:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Flintlock Tom View Post
Wow! Don't we have enough arrogant, self-righteous gun manufacturers? (H&K).
Why don't you just cut to the chase and say "You guys are too stupid to appreciate our awesome product so just keep your opinions to yourself!"

This is not a good way to promote a product that you want people to buy.
We set forth a set of guidelines for ourselves when we went to work designing and building this lower, of course we wanted it to look good, and be aesthetically pleasing, top notch quality in materials, fit and finish, and to NOT have useless gimmicks that just try to sucker people in with flash that has no practical value. In MY opinion, the grips on the front of the magwell are useless, they are unnecessary, and as I stated before (and will stand by that statement) is the improper way to hold and fire an AR in any situation.

So, that being said, I would ask that you give us a little slack and understanding if we get snippy, although I understand there are better ways to convey our own thoughts/problems/grievances/frustrations etc. sometimes our emotions get the best of us, and for that, I do sincerely apologize, its unprofessional, and just inappropriate. If you are wondering what the hell I am talking about, I apologize again, Ill explain.

As stated above, collectively, between myself, Jason, Danny and Brandon, the 4 people that have a hand in this, we have collectively 300+ hours into this. My design company bills at $100/hour, the machine shop for programming and so on bills at approx the same, so there is about $30,000 in engineering, prototyping, set up, and so forth (if we use that as a scale, but I think even the time commitment alone is enough to prove my point). So, I post up pics, and progress, and one of the comments in the first 5/6 posts is someone saying, "well ........ I would change this, this, this, and this". So, how would you respond? I would like to say that we would all do exactly the right thing, and be polite, and understanding, and just say OK, but I think pretty much everyone realizes that human nature usually gets the best of us, and we tend to do/say stupid things.

SO, for that, I apologize, Myself and Jason probably should have just said nothing, but after this long difficult and all consuming project, I can only speak for myself, was a little agitated to say the least, hope you guys understand what I am saying.
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Old 11-01-2012, 8:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason_2111 View Post
I

Dafuq? That's a stupid feature, and not how you're supposed to run an AR.
I'd suggest getting some training before talking out your *** here.
Not everyone shoots with the magful chris costa fan boy tactical reach around.

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Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post

If you are shooting your AR using the front of your mag well as a grip, yer doin it wrong. The foregrip (quad rail) is where you off hand is suppose to be, as far out as possible to control the front of the gun. The texture that some companies put on the front of their magwells is a gimmick to sucker people in that think this is the right way to hold an AR, again, it isn't.
Again not everyone shoots like a costa fan boy.

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well ok nice lower and good luck with your venture and might i suggest some PR training ?
....
THIS!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flintlock Tom View Post
Wow! Don't we have enough arrogant, self-righteous gun manufacturers? (H&K).
Why don't you just cut to the chase and say "You guys are too stupid to appreciate our awesome product so just keep your opinions to yourself!"

This is not a good way to promote a product that you want people to buy.
THIS
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"What you've just posted is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
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Old 11-01-2012, 8:38 AM
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I would rather buy a stripped lower from JD Machine all day long! You guys are too arrogant for us to support!
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Old 11-01-2012, 8:46 AM
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Not everyone shoots with the magful chris costa fan boy tactical reach around.

Again not everyone shoots like a costa fan boy.
QFT... I'm adding that to my sig.
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Old 11-01-2012, 8:54 AM
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I personally hold the mag well, when the barrel is 6" or less. It's the perfect spot for me when shooting it with a single point sling.

But hey, sorry, I don't train like you guys, so obviously I'm an idiot and have no idea what works for me.

But in your defense, you guys are (and I assume) engineers/designers and machinists. And this is exactly what replies sounds like when you let engineers answer question. Sometimes condescending, but always direct and to the point.

With that said, can't wait to see your product in person. A great product is a great product. We'll let it speak for itself.
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Old 11-01-2012, 9:24 AM
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I personally hold the mag well, when the barrel is 6" or less. It's the perfect spot for me when shooting it with a single point sling.

But hey, sorry, I don't train like you guys, so obviously I'm an idiot and have no idea what works for me.
This is entirely valid (not the idiot part ), TBH, I didnt even really consider pistol builds, so again, I apologize. Being here in Cali, I generally default in my mind to "California Compliant" rifles when it comes to design features. Something I need to get my head around in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jingerale View Post
But in your defense, you guys are (and I assume) engineers/designers and machinists. And this is exactly what replies sounds like when you let engineers answer question. Sometimes condescending, but always direct and to the point.

With that said, can't wait to see your product in person. A great product is a great product. We'll let it speak for itself.
My personal comments come from, as I stated in post #28, a knee jerk reaction on comments about a project we worked on so hard. Those that know me, know, that I bust my hump to help people as much as I can to the full extent of my ability, and I am usually NOT a reactionist, although my above comments would of course seem to dictate otherwise, so once again, I apologize for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 21SF View Post
Not everyone shoots with the magful chris costa fan boy tactical reach around.
Funniest thing I have heard this week , and I whole heartedly agree. For the record, I cannot shoot in that manner, and I dont see how people can, I use an AFG up front, and grip the foreend still with my elbow slightly bent, and no fingers wrapped around the whole rail Costa style, BUT, I still firmly believe that chocking up on the magwell is not an effective way to shoot a rifle, but as Jingerale pointed out, of course we do not all have only rifles, so I can see the benefits for some to have a grippable surface on the front of the magwell.
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Last edited by DarkSoul; 11-01-2012 at 9:32 AM..
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  #34  
Old 11-01-2012, 9:25 AM
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I would rather buy a stripped lower from JD Machine all day long! You guys are too arrogant for us to support!
get out of here with that crap. no one cares what you rather buy.

ive been to a darksoul build party and the short time i was there i can say these guys are a great group of guys. i have no doubt when the 80% is ready it will be well worth the asking price. i will continue to support these guys.
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Old 11-01-2012, 9:31 AM
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get out of here with that crap. no one cares what you rather buy.

ive been to a darksoul build party and the short time i was there i can say these guys are a great group of guys. i have no doubt when the 80% is ready it will be well worth the asking price. i will continue to support these guys.
Hmm, you don't think it's useful for a manufacturer to know why a customer would rather do business with their competitor?

"You only get one chance to make a first impression."
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Old 11-01-2012, 9:36 AM
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hmm who's the arrogant one here? i have a good feeling speedpower has not seen the final product nor met darksoul or jason.

i for one dont care for a mag well grip. i sure wouldnt want to pay the extra premium to have it added on there if it wont be used.
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Old 11-01-2012, 9:42 AM
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Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
.... Those that know me, know, that I bust my hump to help people as much as I can to the full extent of my ability,....
no argument from me on that. I've been to your build party.
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Old 11-01-2012, 9:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
This is entirely valid (not the idiot part ), TBH, I didnt even really consider pistol builds, so again, I apologize. Being here in Cali, I generally default in my mind to "California Compliant" rifles when it comes to design features.
Same here... I'll agree to disagree with that grip on a rifle/carbine, that's not how I've ever trained... however when it comes to a pistol configuration running a single point, that seems entirely valid. Can't run a FPG, and an AFG might not be your cup of tea.... so it's definitely an option.

Sorry to stir up so much drama guys... I should have just PM'd Wash instead.
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The inevitable explosion gets closer and closer, coming in little steps, but closer every day.
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  #39  
Old 11-01-2012, 10:13 AM
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The 80% lowers are looking great! Love the beefy but not on steroids look. I've been to their build clinic and both gentlemen are standup guys. Jason has a lot of knowledge and tons of time behind the platform, and the implement of the two nubs is genius. It also serves as a index pont if needed. Being a south paw, I would like ambi controls, but they are not necessary and can be on a separate limited run.

Keep it up!
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:34 AM
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get out of here with that crap. no one cares what you rather buy.

ive been to a darksoul build party and the short time i was there i can say these guys are a great group of guys. i have no doubt when the 80% is ready it will be well worth the asking price. i will continue to support these guys.
Support them all you want, I could care sheet for less, you must have drank too much of their Kool-Aid!
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