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  #1  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:30 PM
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Default Civilian carbine classes: Bullet-button?

I've heard conflicting view points on this.
Am I really expected to run a carbine course with the bullet-button in CA?
This is kind of a sensitive subject so a simple or will be sufficient.
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  #2  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:38 PM
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Have you thought about running featureless?
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  #3  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:41 PM
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There's not much to be confused about. Shooting in competitions or classes does not magically suspend the law of the land, regardless of how ridiculous that law is.

As the above poster says, the only way around the bullet button is to run featureless. The benefit to that is you'll be able to use those regular-capacity magazines you've had since before 2000, instead of the government mandated reduced-capacity magazines.
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  #4  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post
Have you thought about running featureless?
I hadn't considered it yet. I do have a KelTec SU-16 and a 1991 stamped 30 round mag. So thats doable.
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Old 09-12-2012, 2:41 PM
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It depends on who's expectations you want to consider. In the eyes of the penal code, yes unless you are a special case.
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  #6  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:42 PM
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Take your class out of state.
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  #7  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:52 PM
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At the training school where I do all my classes my instructor has the philosophy of "you train with what you have". If you run a " featured" rifle with a BB then you need to be able to manipulate that rifle in a defensive scenario. We had guys with featured and featureless rifles and our instructor does not advocate breaking the law, no matter how dumb they are. If you plan to run a "evil features" rifle in Cali with a BB then you need to learn how to properly manipulate the rifle under stressful/defensive scenarios. Those of us running featured rifles in the Tac Carbine class have gotten pretty good with our BBs. It takes practice. I prefer the Ultimate Bullet Button Tools (http:/ubbt.net)
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  #8  
Old 09-12-2012, 2:53 PM
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My take:
  • Do both in-state and out-of-state training if you can afford it.
  • If not, consider going featureless. Seriously ... works just fine for just about any civilian application.
  • Consider using Thordson's Ultimate Bullet-Button tool and Ultimate Bilateral Magazine Lock.
  • Practice a lot, lol.
  • Some companies, like Gray Ops, specialize in accommodating bullet-button equipped students.
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  #9  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA227driver View Post
At the training school where I do all my classes my instructor has the philosophy of "you train with what you have". If you run a " featured" rifle with a BB then you need to be able to manipulate that rifle in a defensive scenario. We had guys with featured and featureless rifles and our instructor does not advocate breaking the law, no matter how dumb they are. If you plan to run a "evil features" rifle in Cali with a BB then you need to learn how to properly manipulate the rifle under stressful/defensive scenarios. Those of us running featured rifles in the Tac Carbine class have gotten pretty good with our BBs. It takes practice. I prefer the Ultimate Bullet Button Tools (http:/ubbt.net)
Thanks.
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  #10  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
My take:
  • Do both in-state and out-of-state training if you can afford it.
  • If not, consider going featureless. Seriously ... works just fine for just about any civilian application.
  • Consider using Thordson's Ultimate Bullet-Button tool and Ultimate Bilateral Magazine Lock.
  • Practice a lot, lol.
  • Some companies, like Gray Ops, specialize in accommodating bullet-button equipped students.
Thanks.
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  #11  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RudyCakes View Post
I hadn't considered it yet. I do have a KelTec SU-16 and a 1991 stamped 30 round mag. So thats doable.
You can also build an AR in the featureless configuration.
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  #12  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post
You can also build an AR in the featureless configuration.
Yes, thank you. I am looking into that as well. Unfortunately, all of my uppers have birdcages on them. I have several stripped lowers so my next build will be a featureless. I've only got one pre-ban 30 rounder, so I still probably wouldn't do well in the class.
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  #13  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:49 PM
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If you dont have high caps, you can borrow others while in the class. It's legal to do so.
You can still run your bullet button config but based on my experience, it is sub optimal.
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  #14  
Old 09-12-2012, 4:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RudyCakes View Post
I've only got one pre-ban 30 rounder, so I still probably wouldn't do well in the class.
While the BB is more of a hinderance/detriment to training, 10 round magazines are not as much. You'll get more practice reloading if nothing else which isn't all bad. Just bring more 10 round mags to the course loaded and ready to go to keep things moving.

Also you might find that some of the other students may loan you 20/30 rounders (as long as your rifle is compliant) to use in the course.
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  #15  
Old 09-18-2012, 8:04 AM
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We enjoy teaching those willing to learn how to use their rifles within the limits of our current statutes...Don't let your rifles configuration keep you off the range or from training.

http://www.gofast1.com/bulletbuttons.php
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  #16  
Old 09-18-2012, 8:11 AM
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Yes! It sucks big time and you'll need to change your mag out after every ten rounds. I'd recommend putting your bb tool closer to your chest for quicker change outs. Bring at least 4 mags with you. At least you'll be proficient in you using your rifle in the state of CA.
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  #17  
Old 09-18-2012, 8:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atekhed View Post
While the BB is more of a hinderance/detriment to training, 10 round magazines are not as much. You'll get more practice reloading if nothing else which isn't all bad. Just bring more 10 round mags to the course loaded and ready to go to keep things moving.
There is a lot to be said for this approach. Becoming better at the non-shooting skills (reloads, movement, transitions, getting in/out of positions) will make you a better overall shooter.
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  #18  
Old 09-18-2012, 9:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
There is a lot to be said for this approach. Becoming better at the non-shooting skills (reloads, movement, transitions, getting in/out of positions) will make you a better overall shooter.
Becoming one with your firearm platform keeps your focus on the objective with less distractions to keep things up and running.

"When the time to perform arrives, the time to prepare has past"
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  #19  
Old 09-26-2012, 7:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Ops 1* View Post
We enjoy teaching those willing to learn how to use their rifles within the limits of our current statutes...Don't let your rifles configuration keep you off the range or from training.

http://www.gofast1.com/bulletbuttons.php
Do you have any more rifle classes for 2012 scheduled?
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  #20  
Old 09-27-2012, 7:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drick View Post
Do you have any more rifle classes for 2012 scheduled?
Thanks for checking, we do not have any additional classes scheduled for 2012.

We are currently working on our 2013 schedule which I hope to have completed and posted to our web page mid October. With the demand for our Fundamental & Transitional Carbine Courses next year we'll be adding a few more to fill the need.

If you have any additional questions, please, don't hesitate to ask.
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  #21  
Old 09-27-2012, 6:44 PM
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We have a carbine class scheduled for November. I am the instructor that SA227driver is talking about. PM me if interested on the class details or read about the class listing in training section.
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  #22  
Old 09-28-2012, 2:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Man View Post
We have a carbine class scheduled for November. I am the instructor that SA227driver is talking about. PM me if interested on the class details or read about the class listing in training section.
looks like you are in SoCal, i need a NorCal class.

Thanks anyways!
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Old 09-28-2012, 7:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drick View Post
looks like you are in SoCal, i need a NorCal class.

Thanks anyways!
If you are ever down this way we would love to have you! Sorry it didn't work out this time.
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  #24  
Old 09-28-2012, 4:47 PM
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  #25  
Old 11-21-2012, 3:34 PM
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Default Gray Ops Firearms Specialty Training 2013 Training Schedule4 (Northern Ca)

We now have our 2013 Schedule Posted thought I'd share it here.

Gray Ops has a unique firearms training philosophy that stands out among all firearms training companies. Our instructors are passionate about making sure every student achieves the required knowledge, skills, and ability to control their immediate surroundings with the use of a firearm. Our objective is for you to obtain or sharpen your already acquired “Skill at Arm’s” and other personal defense skills.

Our Combo Handgun Courses now meet Sacramento County's CCW Training Requirements!

With the high demand for our Fund/Inter HG & Fund/Trans Carbine classes we've added more classes for 2013 in the hopes to meet and fill your needs. We've also added a new Handgun Skill Builder Course to fill the gap between Intermediate & Advanced. We should have something to fit everyone's needs. If you don't see it ask and we can make it happen! Other training opportunities include Private Lessons, Semi-Private/Small Group Lessons, and if you have a Group of 5+ we can customize training to fit your requirements.

January
12 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 6)
13 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 6)

February 2013
2 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 10)
3 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 10)
16 - Defensive Shotgun (Slots Remaining 12)

March 2013
2 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
3 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
16-17 Handgun Skill Builder (Slots Remaining 10) New for 2013!
23-24 Precision Rifle (Slots Remaining 12)

April 2013
6 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 11)
7 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 11)
13 - Women's Only Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
20-21 Carbine Skill Builder (Slots Remaining 12)

May 2013
4 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 11)
5 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 10)

June 2013
1 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 11)
2 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 11)
29-30 Advanced Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)

July 2013
6 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
7 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
13-14 Advanced Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)

August 2013
3 - Defensive Shotgun (Slots Remaining 12)
10 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)
11 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)
24-25 Handgun Skill Builder (Slots Remaining 12) New for 2013!

September 2013
7 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
8 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
15 - Women's Only Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
21-22 Advanced Handgun

October 2013
5 - Fundamental Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)
6 - Transitional Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)
19-20 Carbine Skill Builder (Slots Remaining 12)

November 2013
2 - Fundamental Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
3 - Intermediate Handgun (Slots Remaining 12)
16-17 Advanced Carbine (Slots Remaining 12)

Our goal is for you to be competent, confident, and comfortable with the weapon of your choice. We have an outstanding success rate due to our willingness to spend the time necessary for you to achieve a level where you are safe and skilled. Gray Ops stresses a personal - but no nonsense – approach. Students learn not only the mechanics of firearm safety and use but the responsibilities gun ownership/use requires. We offer small classes, with a minimum of a 1 to 5 instructor/student ratio to provide the most of our experience. You will not get lost in a crowd.

For additional course details visit our web site www.gofast1.com
Class Schedule is subject to change without notice, additional classes will most likely be added as we nail down the dates.
Thanks for all the support in 2012 we at Gray Ops are here for our students when ever the need arises.
We are looking forward to seeing you at one of the classes in 2013!
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Only Hits Count!
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  #26  
Old 11-21-2012, 8:44 PM
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The following video is of our Rifle 1 class on 11/17...there were 5 rifles with bullet buttons (1 of which was an AK), one featureless and a Mini 14:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT2oqwb3v70

The gentleman running the AK (which has a challenging bullet button) did a great job with emergency reloads using a screwdriver.
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Old 11-21-2012, 9:22 PM
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Last edited by Stan08; 11-21-2012 at 9:26 PM..
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  #28  
Old 11-22-2012, 5:38 AM
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Happy Thanksgiving EVERYONE!

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Gordon -
HONOR ~ Is a way of Life
www.gofast1.com
"Some situations you may be faced with in life are not black and white. Falling somewhere in between, in the 'Gray' areas."
Our mission is to prepare you for those occasions.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."

Speed is fine but Accuracy is Final
Slow = Smooth & Smooth = Fast, then Slow = Fast
Only Hits Count!
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  #29  
Old 12-02-2012, 5:56 PM
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For anyone that's attended carbine courses in California with out of state instructors (e.g. Costa, etc.), do the instructors configure their carbines in accordance with California laws? Is there something in the law that excludes them from complying?

Thanks for any help.
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  #30  
Old 12-02-2012, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
There is a lot to be said for this approach. Becoming better at the non-shooting skills (reloads, movement, transitions, getting in/out of positions) will make you a better overall shooter.
X2 TO THAT. THE END RESULT A SHOOTER WITH BETTER SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
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