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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-19-2012, 6:46 AM
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Default Face to face interstate transfer between 03 ffls in CA??

I though I had a pretty good handle on what a 03 FFL can and cannot do in CA, but this question came up on another forum, and I can't find a clear answer.

Seller is a 03 ffl, non resident. Buyer is a 03 FFL, CA resident.

I know that a 50 year old C&R long gun can be shipped in interstate commerce directly to an CA 03 FFL (until 2014 anyway), but what if the non resident delivered?

For example, I live in Truckee, Reno is about 40 minutes away. I know I can buy or sell from a FFL holder when I am in Nevada, but is it legal for a Nevada 03 FFL to sell to a 03 FFL face to face while in California?
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Old 09-19-2012, 6:51 AM
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Follow the laws of both states and you'll be fine. If you are talking about a +50 year old long gun, I believe it would be fine to sell to a NV 03 holder and possibly a NV non-FFL resident as well.
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Old 09-19-2012, 7:04 AM
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Follow the laws of both states and you'll be fine.
That is what I am trying to figure out.

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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
I believe it would be fine to sell to a NV 03 holder and possibly a NV non-FFL resident as well.
I don't think that is true, my understanding is that I can only sell to non residents at my licensed location, and while I can't cite the penal code I would be shocked if that was allowed by CA law.

Maybe a better example, I have a buddy who lived in Texas, who is an 03 FFL. Say I wanted to buy a C&R rifle from him, and he is coming to visit me.

I know it is legal for him to ship me a 50+ year old rifle.
Is it legal for him to bring it with him and give it to me in person in the state of California?
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Old 09-19-2012, 7:12 AM
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If all pistol transactions must go through a dealer.. oh wait.

Good question.

As far as the long gun, its legal in California (for now) and its legal in Texas. If you werent an 03, you would need to use an 01 FFL per federal laws about shipping/transfering interstate, right?. I cant think of why there should be any reason why another 03 couldnt hand deliever it to you.

I have driven just over the state line to buy pistols from another 03FFL. I looked it up at the time, pistols, c&r and otherwise must go through a dealer, there is no exemption for two 03s. You can go to their state to buy them, but if they come here, you must use a dealer...?

If you didnt, would you send in the importer form for guns you bought in the state?
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Old 09-19-2012, 7:30 AM
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If you have an 03 FFL then out of state private parties and out of state 03 FFLs can deliver C&R long guns that are over 50 years old to you anywhere in California. They can ship or deliver in person.
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Old 09-19-2012, 8:17 AM
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Follow the laws of both states and you'll be fine. If you are talking about a +50 year old long gun, I believe it would be fine to sell to a NV 03 holder and possibly a NV non-FFL resident as well.
Nope, that's where federal law trips you up -- has to hold an FFL.
GCA-1968.
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Old 09-19-2012, 8:37 AM
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Nope, that's where federal law trips you up -- has to hold an FFL.
GCA-1968.
The out of state buyer DOES NOT need to be an FFL if he is acquiring a C&R rifle or shotgun that is over 50 years old from a California C&R FFL as long as the transfer takes place at the C&R FFLs licensed premises and the transaction follows the laws of both States.
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Old 09-19-2012, 8:44 AM
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The out of state buyer DOES NOT need to be an FFL if he is acquiring a C&R rifle or shotgun that is over 50 years old from a California C&R FFL as long as the transfer takes place at the C&R FFLs licensed premises and the transaction follows the laws of both States.
Yeah, as long as one of the players has an FFL, GCA is satisfied, provided the laws of both states are met, still not sure if it is allowed in CA.

I think NV just changed the law to allow residents to buy guns in all 50 states if local laws allow it.
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Old 09-19-2012, 8:54 AM
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...still not sure if it is allowed in CA.
It's allowed in California until 2014.
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Old 09-19-2012, 9:02 AM
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I admit to an error.... and take my hat off to Mssr. Eleganté.
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Old 09-19-2012, 9:09 AM
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The out of state buyer DOES NOT need to be an FFL if he is acquiring a C&R rifle or shotgun that is over 50 years old from a California C&R FFL as long as the transfer takes place at the C&R FFLs licensed premises and the transaction follows the laws of both States.
I didnt know that.

I thought that 'licensed premises' stuff was just a way for ATF to know where to send mail and get a hold of you if they needed an audit....
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Old 09-19-2012, 9:09 AM
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It's allowed in California until 2014.
Private sales between 2 residents are OK until 2014, but does that apply to a non resident?

Not saying I don't believe you, but if that is the case it is really surprising.
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Old 09-19-2012, 9:42 AM
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Private sales between 2 residents are OK until 2014, but does that apply to a non resident?
Yes. Transfers of 50+ year old C&R long guns are exempt from California's dealer transfer requirements. There is nothing in California law that says both parties have to be California residents to take advantage of this exemption.
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Old 09-19-2012, 9:47 AM
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Can I sell a C&R pistol at my premisis to an out of state individual provided it is legal in their home state?
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Old 09-19-2012, 9:54 AM
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Yes. Transfers of 50+ year old C&R long guns are exempt from California's dealer transfer requirements. There is nothing in California law that says both parties have to be California residents to take advantage of this exemption.
But, doesn't one party have to have a C&R when one party is an OOS resident? If CA resident is receiving and has C&R -- perfect. If NV resident is in CA and is receiving at the CA FFL-3's premise -- again OK. But, if neither has an FFL-3, then isn't federal law being violated?
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Old 09-19-2012, 9:54 AM
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Emcon5 was kind enough to start this thread to answer my question on the other forum. Simply put, I'm C&R 03 in Arizona. I have a C&R No.4 Enfield. I'd like to take that rifle over to California and hand deliver it to an 01 or 03 for legal transfer to my cousin, a California resident. Exploring all legal options. Is that possible? Thanks for any addition input. Don
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Old 09-19-2012, 9:58 AM
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But, doesn't one party have to have a C&R when one party is an OOS resident? If CA resident is receiving and has C&R -- perfect. If NV resident is in CA and is receiving at the CA FFL-3's premise -- again OK. But, if neither has an FFL-3, then isn't federal law being violated?
Yes, the Feds require one party to have an FFL. My post previous to this one was just answering emcon5's question about California law.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:00 AM
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Can I sell a C&R pistol at my premisis to an out of state individual provided it is legal in their home state?
No, because that violates CA law. All handgun transfers must process through a CA dealer.

The thread invokes the 50 year old C&R long gun exemption. Formerly in PC 12078(t)(2).
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by drweiler View Post
Emcon5 was kind enough to start this thread to answer my question on the other forum. Simply put, I'm C&R 03 in Arizona. I have a C&R No.4 Enfield. I'd like to take that rifle over to California and hand deliver it to an 01 or 03 for legal transfer to my cousin, a California resident. Exploring all legal options. Is that possible? Thanks for any addition input. Don
an 03 cannot do a transfer for you. violation of his license. Unless your cousin has an ffl-3, it will have to go through an 01.

Edit: Unless being a non-resident is permitted for this exemption to the CA law to use a dealer. I'm still unclear about the federal law on this --

Buying from a Private Party WITHOUT a Dealer

For a very narrow range of firearms, no dealer or license is required. An individual can purchase Curio or Relic long guns without using an FFL and with or without having a Curio and Relic/03 Federal License themselves.

California uses the Federal definition of C&R guns Penal Code 27965 (was 12078(t)(2))

(a) If all of the following requirements are satisfied,
Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm:
(1) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in
Section 16730.
(2) The firearm is not a handgun.
(3) The firearm is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years
prior to the current date but is not a replica, as defined in
Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or
its successor.
(b) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1,
2014, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted
statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2014, deletes or extends
that date.

Penal Code 27545 requires 2 non-licensed individuals to use an FFL in a Penal Code 12082 Private Party Transfer; the above is an exception to that requirement.
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Last edited by littlejake; 09-19-2012 at 10:33 AM.. Reason: addenda
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:03 AM
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I understand the 50 year+ long gun exemption. I was unclear if your 'premisis' changed anything in respect to handguns.

I can go to another state and buy a C&R pistol for cash no 01, because I have an 03, but an 03 can not come here and do the same without a 01 transfer. That is because of the intersection of state and federal law correct?
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:14 AM
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Frankly, the best option is for your cousin to apply for an 03 FFL, assuming he is over 21.

It will cost him considerably less than a transfer through a CA 01 FFL, no 10 day wait, and the forms are online now. The process has only been taking about a month or so lately.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by emcon5 View Post
Frankly, the best option is for your cousin to apply for an 03 FFL, assuming he is over 21.

It will cost him considerably less than a transfer through a CA 01 FFL, no 10 day wait, and the forms are online now. The process has only been taking about a month or so lately.
Another simple option is for the cousin to travel to the licensed premises of the Arizona 03 FFL and pick up the Enfield.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:42 AM
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Nope, that's where federal law trips you up -- has to hold an FFL.
GCA-1968.
That's what I thought but, I also have heard that it is legal to sell long guns to non residents if the state laws are met. I believe that Cabela's in Utah even has a sign indicating which other states they can sell to directly.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:58 AM
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Another simple option is for the cousin to travel to the licensed premises of the Arizona 03 FFL and pick up the Enfield.
Were it only that easy. An Arizona resident can only give/sell a firearm to another Arizona resident with proof there of, Az. drivers license etc. There's a wealth of knowledge on this forum, generously given, and appreciated. Thanks, Don
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:03 PM
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Another simple option is for the cousin to travel to the licensed premises of the Arizona 03 FFL and pick up the Enfield.
That can't be right. If a CA resident can legally do that, you should also be able to buy from an 01 FFL in another state, which is not the case for a non licensee.
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:03 PM
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Were it only that easy. An Arizona resident can only give/sell a firearm to another Arizona resident with proof there of, Az. drivers license etc. There's a wealth of knowledge on this forum, generously given, and appreciated. Thanks, Don
Wow. That sucks. I had no idea Arizona law was so strict. You wouldn't happen to know what section number of Arizona law incudes this restriction off hand, would you? Thanks.
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:09 PM
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That can't be right. If a CA resident can legally do that, you should also be able to buy from an 01 FFL in another state, which is not the case for a non licensee.
An FFL can transfer a rifle or shotgun to an out of state non-licensee if the transfer takes place at the FFL's licensed premises and the transfer complies with the laws of both States.
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:15 PM
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An FFL can transfer a rifle or shotgun to an out of state non-licensee if the transfer takes place at the FFL's licensed premises and the transfer complies with the laws of both States.
Thank you. I was unsure about when an out of state, unlicensed, person could purchase a firearm without going through a FFL in their state.
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Old 09-19-2012, 1:09 PM
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Wow. That sucks. I had no idea Arizona law was so strict. You wouldn't happen to know what section number of Arizona law incudes this restriction off hand, would you? Thanks.
Fair question, sorry I don't have the answer. I will pursue that in due course. Don
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Old 09-19-2012, 1:20 PM
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AZ statutes:
13-3106. Firearm purchase in other states

A person residing in this state, or a corporation or other business entity maintaining a place of business in this state, may purchase or otherwise obtain firearms anywhere in the United States if such purchase or acquisition fully complies with the laws of this state and the state in which the purchase or acquisition is made and the purchaser and seller, prior to the sale or delivery for sale, have complied with all the requirements of the federal gun control act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, section 922, subsection (c) and the Code of Federal Regulations, volume 26, section 178.96, subsection (c).
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Old 09-19-2012, 8:05 PM
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Fair question, sorry I don't have the answer. I will pursue that in due course. Don
I just searched through the entire Arizona Revised Statutes...

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp

and there is no mention at all of a requirement that firearms transfers in Arizona only be between Arizona residents. I suspect you have just heard the boilerplate warning that both ATF and the NRA put out to educate unlicensed individuals about the restrictions on interstate firearms transfers in federal law. Telling people that they should only sell to other residents of their State and to verify this by checking ID if they are doing a private transfer is actually good advice for 99% of all private sales in the U.S.

But the transfers we are talking about in this thread involve transfers to or from FFLs.

There is absolutely nothing in California law that prohibits you from transferring a 50+ year old C&R Enfield rifle to your California cousin if he is at least 18 years old and isn't a prohibited person. This is 100% certain.

I can't find anything in Arizona law that would prohibit you from transferring a firearm to your California cousin if he is at least 18 years old and not a prohibited person. I am not as up to speed on Arizona law so maybe there is some prohibition hidden in an obscure Arizona code somewhere. But there is nothing in the firearms, public safety, or commerce sections of Arizona law. I checked every section where the terms "firearm", "firearms" and "weapon" were used.

Federal law says that a C&R FFL in Arizona can transfer a C&R rifle or shotgun to an 18+ year old resident of any other State as long as the transferee comes to the C&R FFLs licensed premises for the transfer and the transfer complies with the laws of both States. I am 100% certain California law would be complied with and 99% certain that Arizona law would be complied with in such a transaction.
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Old 09-19-2012, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SanPedroShooter View Post
...I looked it up at the time, pistols, c&r and otherwise must go through a dealer, there is no exemption for two 03s. You can go to their state to buy them, but if they come here, you must use a dealer...?
No, that's not entirely correct. It's true that any handgun transfer to a California 03 FFL must go through a California licensed dealer if the transfer takes place in California. But an 03 FFL from outside of California can come to California and acquire a C&R handgun from anybody, cash and carry, and take it back with them to their home State.

Transfers of C&R firearms (long guns and handguns of any age) from unlicensed Californians to 03 FFLs from out of state are exempt from California's dealer transfer requirements.

Transfers of C&R firearms (long guns and handguns of any age) from California 03 FFLs to 03 FFLs from out of state are exempt from California's dealer transfer requirements.

Transfers of C&R firearms (long guns and handguns of any age) from California licensed dealers to 03 FFLs from out of state are exempt from DROS, waiting period, and HSC requirements.
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Last edited by Mssr. Eleganté; 09-19-2012 at 10:55 PM..
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Old 09-19-2012, 9:41 PM
drweiler drweiler is offline
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Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté View Post
No, that's not entirely correct. It's true that any handgun transfer to a California 03 FFL must go through a California licensed dealer if the transfer takes place in California. But an 03 FFL from outside of California can come to California and acquire a C&R handgun from anybody, cash and carry, and take it back with them to their home State.

Transfers of C&R firearms (long guns and handguns of any age) from unlicensed Californians to 03 FFLs from out of state are exempt from California's dealer transfer requirements.

Transfers of C&R firearms (long guns and handguns of any age) from California C&R FFLs to 03 FFLs from out of state are exempt from California's dealer transfer requirements.

Transfers of C&R firearms (long guns and handguns of any age) from California licensed dealers to C&R FFLs from out of state are exempt from DROS, waiting period, and HSC requirements.
Thanks for your time and energy. I will discuss this issue with the ATF at our next show where they have a goodwill/information table, and report back. Cheers, Don
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