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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 08-21-2012, 9:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Nothing unless it is in a bullet button configured rifle. Even then we are not sure of the law.
Why would that be any different?
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  #42  
Old 08-21-2012, 9:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ccmc View Post
Why would that be any different?
-.- using a high capacity magazine in conjunction with "evil features" makes it an assault weapon. Regardless if it has a fixed mag. Apparently some new info/analysis came out that calls this into question though. I haven't really looked it over much yet so I can't comment on that yet.
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  #43  
Old 08-21-2012, 9:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Dantedamean View Post
-.- using a high capacity magazine in conjunction with "evil features" makes it an assault weapon. Regardless if it has a fixed mag. Apparently some new info/analysis came out that calls this into question though. I haven't really looked it over much yet so I can't comment on that yet.
Thanks. I'm not a CA resident so this is all new for me.
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  #44  
Old 08-21-2012, 9:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ccmc View Post
Thanks. I'm not a CA resident so this is all new for me.
Ah ok lol that explains it. Ya... The complexity of our laws suck.
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  #45  
Old 08-21-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Oceanbob View Post
I disagree. I legally own hi cap magazines and intend to use them if I feel like it. If I get arrested, then that Arresting Agency had better have some deep pockets. False arrest and abuse of power, neglecting my rights...all are actionable in Court.

I've never been hasseled by Law Enforcement for using hi cap magaines or even my RAWs at the Range. I've even let a couple of Highway Patrol guys shoot my HK-91 and hi cap (15 round glock) Glock 20 at a range.

If you own them use them.
"I legally own hi cap magazines and intend to use them if I feel like it."

This is called bluster. Of course you can use them if you fell like it.

I also own high capacity magazines from 1977, they remain in the safe.

"If I get arrested, then that Arresting Agency had better have some deep pockets. False arrest and abuse of power, neglecting my rights...all are actionable in Court."

Absolutely correct!. Just keep in mind that if the prosecutor is a hardliner, or worse an ignorant hardliner, Absent a public defender or pro bono lawyer, that court action will be billed somewhere around $400 per hour. If you win, maybe all costs will be recovered with the judgement. Then there is the lost time from work and expense of court appearances, first the criminal case then the civil case.

All that because there was a burning desire to shoot a particular magazine?

"I've never been hasseled by Law Enforcement for using hi cap magaines or even my RAWs at the Range. I've even let a couple of Highway Patrol guys shoot my HK-91 and hi cap (15 round glock) Glock 20 at a range."

Shooting at a recognized commercial range is one thing, shooting on BLM or other public land is another. My point is not about legality, it's about not exposing oneself to needless legal troubles. It's about choices, self-interest and remaining under the radar. For me 10 round magazines are plenty, with 5 rounds sufficient.
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  #46  
Old 08-21-2012, 12:44 PM
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It is not illegal to possess standard capacity magazines. It is not recommended that you say anything to the police, except that:

1) It is not illegal to posses standard capacity (high capacity) magazines.
2) You are exercising your right to remain silent.
3) The officer is welcome to join you. (assuming he is not a douche, although you should still remain silent regarding all things magazine related.
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  #47  
Old 08-21-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Rand B. Wilson View Post
Would this not (technically) cause legal issues when driving back over the state line?
Who knows? If it is, then use a cutting torch or Sawzall on the hi caps and forget the whole thing.

More trouble than they are worth.

My recommendation is to destroy the hi caps unless they are going to remain secure in the home, or weld them into a floor lamp sculpture.
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  #48  
Old 08-21-2012, 12:56 PM
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Read back over the entire content of this thread. Does it not sound like theologians arguing the meaning of some obscure scriptural passage? In times past loosing such arguments may have resulted in excommunication or a mandatory barbeque invitation. Really, when laws become so vague and ambiguous they are especially dangerous. Changing the law, or attempting to change the law, is safer than trying to definitively determine its meaning. I hereby pledge to never again enter into a discussion of hi capacity magazines, to do so is a waste of time and electrons.
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  #49  
Old 08-21-2012, 12:59 PM
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* reminder, non-lawyer here *

I don't think the 'nuisance' language is going to be a problem, but probably it will take a court case to sort it out.

I suggest including large-capacity magazines in the nuisance/confiscation language is a drafting error in the law.

Everything else that is a 'nuisance' is a felony to possess - it's old PC 12029
Quote:
Except as provided in Section 12020, blackjacks, slungshots, billies, nunchakus, sandclubs, sandbags, shurikens, metal knuckles, short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles as defined in Section 12020, and any other item which is listed in subdivision (a) of Section 12020 and is not listed in subdivision (a) of Section 12028 are nuisances, and the Attorney General, district attorney, or city attorney may bring an action to enjoin the manufacture of, importation of, keeping for sale of, offering or exposing for sale, giving, lending, or possession of, any of the foregoing items. These weapons shall be subject to confiscation and summary destruction whenever found within the state. These weapons shall be destroyed in the same manner as other weapons described in Section 12028, except that upon the certification of a judge or of the district attorney that the ends of justice will be subserved thereby, the weapon shall be preserved until the necessity for its use ceases.
12020 (a) used to have just (1), describing those nuisance items. The magazine ban law was added at 12020(a)(2).

That " any other item which is listed in subdivision (a) of Section 12020 " should have read " any other item which is listed in subdivision (a)(1) of Section 12020 ", but 12029 was forgotten in SB23. (Or deliberately omitted and we missed getting that fixed, if we could have had such a technical change inserted).

ETA - Oh, yes, the original question: possession and use of large-capacity magazines is generally not a crime with which one can be charged. Smile at the nice questioner and continue with your day.
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Last edited by Librarian; 08-21-2012 at 1:02 PM..
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  #50  
Old 08-21-2012, 1:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
The "nuisance" clause seems to say that if you ADMIT you "found" the mag, or that you acquired it illegally more than 3 years ago, the mag can be confiscated.

I am not a lawyer. YMMV.

Incidentally, the CGF mag FAQ doesn't really touch on this subject at all... perhaps it needs some updating
EXACTLY. Or if you violate any of the items in the law. I think they have to label an item as a nuisance when it becomes illegal per the wording of the law.
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  #51  
Old 08-21-2012, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrangler John View Post
Who knows? If it is, then use a cutting torch or Sawzall on the hi caps and forget the whole thing.

More trouble than they are worth.

My recommendation is to destroy the hi caps unless they are going to remain secure in the home, or weld them into a floor lamp sculpture.

And I totally disagree with you.

I own several dozen Large Capacity Magazines. I purchased them when I purchased my AR15s (RAWs) back in 1996-1999. I own a grand total of two 10 round magazines. One came with the Armalite M15A4(T) back in 1999. The other is a 10/30 I just recently picked up along with an AR Pistol from the great folks at Riflegear.

If I thought like you, I'd either have to purchase new 10 round magazines or not shoot my AR15s.

I don't plan on doing either.

I'll continue to use my 20 & 30 rounders in my Registered Assault Weapons.
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Last edited by Sniper3142; 08-22-2012 at 8:25 AM..
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  #52  
Old 08-22-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
I don't think that trumps everything else:
Of course it does. I didn't say that 18010 made possession a crime. But it does allow the PD to confiscate them if they find them, without due process and without having to charge you with anything. The "exceptions" listed in the PC are none of us regular folk as far I could tell. So, while the mega thread says:

[quote]It is perfectly legal - no restrictions at all in the Penal Code - to own and possess and use those "large-capacity magazines" in any gun*(see footnote), at any time, under any circumstances where it is legal to use a gun. Ownership, possession and use of "large-capacity magazines" are not crimes in PC; there is no section under which you could be charged. [quote]

18010 says that the PD can take them if they find you with them. I'd honestly be very happy if someone could show me how that section can be interpreted to NOT mean what a lot of us believe it means.
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  #53  
Old 08-22-2012, 12:38 PM
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In 1993, I was at an auction and bought a "box lot". There were several items in the box. The item I wanted was a 75th anniversary, Harley Davidson belt buckle.

Also in the box were 30 round AR-15 and 20 round Mini-14 magazines. I didn't and still don't have either of those rifles. I still have the mags and the way things are going in CA, I'm going to buy a Mini-14 and use my pre-ban magazines. The AR mags, I'll give to my grandson in MO.
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  #54  
Old 08-22-2012, 12:59 PM
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This is a quote from a DA we just interviewed for the film...

"Well, you're not to sell, or distribute a high capacity magazine, but you can own it. Thatís the rather interesting dichotomy in California's law.."
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  #55  
Old 08-22-2012, 3:50 PM
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There is a US Forest Ranger in Nor Cal that has been confiscating bullet button and post ban guns using mags over 10 rounds. He said he turned them over to the DA's office to be destroyed. Said he was confiscating 5-10 guns a month.

He hassled me over one of my RAW's with a 30 round mags but once I showed him my DOJ letter he left me alone. I also had a pre 2000 Sig 226 with legal hi cap mags he didn't even ask about it.

I wouldn't risk using a hi cap mag in any gun I bought after 2000.
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  #56  
Old 08-22-2012, 4:03 PM
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Originally Posted by yelohamr View Post
The AR mags, I'll give to my grandson in MO.
Please keep them in CA.

Send your grandson something else... like 30 round parts kits.
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  #57  
Old 08-22-2012, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by skibuff View Post
There is a US Forest Ranger in Nor Cal that has been confiscating bullet button and post ban guns using mags over 10 rounds. He said he turned them over to the DA's office to be destroyed. Said he was confiscating 5-10 guns a month.

He hassled me over one of my RAW's with a 30 round mags but once I showed him my DOJ letter he left me alone. I also had a pre 2000 Sig 226 with legal hi cap mags he didn't even ask about it.

I wouldn't risk using a hi cap mag in any gun I bought after 2000.
If its a featureless rifle I'll be filling a lawsuit for illegal seizure. It's perfectly legal to use them on featureless rifles.
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  #58  
Old 08-22-2012, 7:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skibuff View Post
There is a US Forest Ranger in Nor Cal that has been confiscating bullet button and post ban guns using mags over 10 rounds. He said he turned them over to the DA's office to be destroyed. Said he was confiscating 5-10 guns a month.

He hassled me over one of my RAW's with a 30 round mags but once I showed him my DOJ letter he left me alone. I also had a pre 2000 Sig 226 with legal hi cap mags he didn't even ask about it.

I wouldn't risk using a hi cap mag in any gun I bought after 2000.
Give me his Name, Badge Number and any other identifying Information you can.

I want to meet this fellow.
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  #59  
Old 08-22-2012, 8:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Please keep them in CA.

Send your grandson something else... like 30 round parts kits.
The mags are legal in MO.
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  #60  
Old 08-22-2012, 8:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelohamr View Post
The mags are legal in MO.
They are legal in California too. Please don't remove legal normal capacity mags from California, they are rare enough as it is.
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  #61  
Old 08-23-2012, 2:17 PM
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So, if I have an AR15 equipped with a muzzle brake (not flash hider), a A2 stock (not a collasible stock), a Monsterman grip (not a pistol grip), I can use "standard capacity" magazines AND I don't have to install a "bullet button"?
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  #62  
Old 08-23-2012, 2:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ragenmoan View Post
So, if I have an AR15 equipped with a muzzle brake (not flash hider), a A2 stock (not a collasible stock), a Monsterman grip (not a pistol grip), I can use "standard capacity" magazines AND I don't have to install a "bullet button"?
And with no bayonet lug and launcher ( I think that's it ) you are correct.
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  #63  
Old 08-23-2012, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
Give me his Name, Badge Number and any other identifying Information you can.

I want to meet this fellow.
Sorry didn't get a name he was an Asian US Forest ranger in the Eldorado National Forest at a popular shooting area in pollock Pines. He seemed to be mostly focused on the AW laws.

I have 20+ pre 2000 hi cap Mags several still unopened in the factory wrap. And have no problem using them but only in guns that are listed on my RAW letter or that I purchased prior to 2000.

I think you guys that are buying hi cap rebuild kits and using them are pushing a gray area in the law and need to be willing to accept the consequences of your choices but I guess the case law needs someones name on it.
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  #64  
Old 08-23-2012, 3:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragenmoan View Post
So, if I have an AR15 equipped with a muzzle brake (not flash hider), a A2 stock (not a collasible stock), a Monsterman grip (not a pistol grip), I can use "standard capacity" magazines AND I don't have to install a "bullet button"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantedamean View Post
And with no bayonet lug and launcher ( I think that's it ) you are correct.
Actually a Bayonet Lug is fine.

It was a feature on the old Federal AW Ban; which is no longer around.
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  #65  
Old 08-23-2012, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
Actually a Bayonet Lug is fine.

It was a feature on the old Federal AW Ban; which is no longer around.
Oh cool. Thanks for correcting me. I always thought that was part of the California ban too. Time for me to get a bayonet lug
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  #66  
Old 08-23-2012, 4:07 PM
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  • Many here, especially Asian youngsters, are overrespectful of 'authority' and too dumb
    to shuddup and will fold under pressure and perhaps try to talk themselves out of the
    situation (and straight into jail).
    .
  • Saying you "found" a mag is pretty friggin' stupid. I can see you ending up in trouble
    (i.e., charges not dropped, going to trial...)
    .
  • Those having unique hicap mags for guns not even produced or well in circulation before
    1/1/2000 are gonna smell not too good either.
    .
  • I am of the personal opinion that PMag conversions of hicap mags "smell bad" too. It's
    probably defendable esp if you're not in the above drama, but it's just copbait/DA bait.
    USGI magazines work just fine and PMag body conversions add extra explanation for
    your lawyer (is that really a repair?) and may turn a walkaway situation into a charge.
    Plus, PMags + Youngster = Airsoft Wannabe Kid That May Well be Violator".
    .
  • If you legitimately own pre-2000 hicaps go about your daily conduct with them. I have
    hundreds of hicaps I bought in late 90s and use and travel with them without fear.

    The only thing [at best] you say to a cop is that "Provisions of the penal code allow
    retention, usagge, transport and export/reimportation of lawfully-owned magazines
    acquired in CA before 1/1/2000."

    A

    CGF has defended and will defend lawful hicap mag owners that ain't stupid.

    I've driven around with hicaps in my truck toolbox. You certainly if you have legit hicaps
    should go shoot with them.
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