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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 07-31-2012, 8:22 PM
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Default Is this 12.5" AAC Upper considered a SBR instead of a pistol (and therefore illegal)?

www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100000667

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  #2  
Old 07-31-2012, 8:24 PM
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u need a "pistol" lower to legally posses this upper otherwise its an SBR (16inch or less)
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  #3  
Old 07-31-2012, 8:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUKAK View Post
u need a "pistol" lower to legally posses this upper otherwise its an SBR (16inch or less)
This.

Or just have no lower at all. If you have a rifle lower in your possession along with the sub 16" upper, it "could" be considered constructive possession of an SBR, and therefore a felony.
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  #4  
Old 07-31-2012, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MUKAK View Post
u need a "pistol" lower to legally posses this upper otherwise its an SBR (16inch or less)
There is a difference between a pistol lower and a rifle lower? I'm so confused!?!?
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  #5  
Old 07-31-2012, 9:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorge Retson View Post
There is a difference between a pistol lower and a rifle lower? I'm so confused!?!?
In CA, yes.

IIRC, When your purchase an AR lower receiver in CA the DROS software only allows the FFL to mark that you purchased a long gun.

There is no option to mark it as a "pistol" (or "other" - which is what it is Federally) because of the Handgun Roster.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

To get an AR pistol in CA you need to either have some PPT a pistol lower (or AR pistol), purchase a completed AR pistol (via Single Shot Exemption) at an FFL, or manufacture your own lower receiver.

EDIT: Or you can acquire a pistol lower if you are an individual who is exempt from the Roster such as an LEO. - Thanks to 762.D3A7H for reminding me of that!
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  #6  
Old 07-31-2012, 9:09 PM
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unless u buy a registered Pistol lower or build a 80% lower for that upper u will end up in jail if u run into a cop that knows his *hit
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  #7  
Old 07-31-2012, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Lagduf View Post
To get an AR pistol in CA you need to either have some PPT a pistol lower (or AR pistol), purchase a completed AR pistol (via Single Shot Exemption) at an FFL, or manufacture your own lower receiver.
Okay, now I am getting the appeal of an 80% lower....
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  #8  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUKAK View Post
u need a "pistol" lower to legally posses this upper otherwise its an SBR (16inch or less)
To be clear, a 12" upper is not a SBR; since an upper is not a rifle. However, a 12" upper with "control" of a (rifle) lower is constructive possesion of a SBR.
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  #9  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Rorge Retson View Post
Okay, now I am getting the appeal of an 80% lower....
80% Pistol - 7" Barrel

Will never buy a 100% OLL again!

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  #10  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:05 PM
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hell one school of thought is that AFG's aren't legal on AR pistols. I however think they are fine and that is almost exactly how I want to build my AR pistol.
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  #11  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:14 PM
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senergy who made that "bad lever"? that thing looks wicked.
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  #12  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:18 PM
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senergy who made that "bad lever"? that thing looks wicked.
http://phase5tactical.com/

I want to know what length his handguard is though.
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  #13  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by motorwerks View Post
hell one school of thought is that AFG's aren't legal on AR pistols. I however think they are fine and that is almost exactly how I want to build my AR pistol.
I asked around about the same issue (angled fore-grip) for a "featureless" AR and was told it's a considered a "forward grip". I would remove that ASAP, but then I don't want to be a test case..

Anyways, nice pistol!
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  #14  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by NoHeavyHitter View Post
I asked around about the same issue (angled fore-grip) for a "featureless" AR and was told it's a considered a "forward grip". I would remove that ASAP, but then I don't want to be a test case..

Anyways, nice pistol!

ATF ruled that it is not. See this link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/5...er_Added_.html
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  #15  
Old 08-15-2012, 1:13 AM
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Originally Posted by lazyworm View Post
ATF ruled that it is not. See this link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/5...er_Added_.html
Thanks for your post. I have an angled foregrip that I'd been wanting to use on my featureless AR and was unaware of there being an official declaration of the AFG's status.
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  #16  
Old 08-15-2012, 1:20 AM
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Just because the feds say it is gtg does not mean ca does.
Im in the camp that the afg is gtg on featureless, but nobody can say for sure until there is a court case or the awb is lifted.
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  #17  
Old 08-15-2012, 5:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorge Retson View Post
Rorge Retson,

Yes that's considered a SBR for sure. It has to be at least a 14.5" in barrel length and then an attached flash surpressor to make up the difference to 16" in total length.

What you could do is buy it and then attach a 5.5" surpressor on the end to make it an easy 16". I've seen at the shows some manufacturers screw/weld a permanent fake looking silensor/can. to make it 16" inches long.

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  #18  
Old 08-15-2012, 6:21 AM
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As far a "pistol" lowers go, on a federal level, ATF doesn't give a rat's azz how it was DROSed in CA. If it is a virgin lower, it can be made into a handgun FEDERALLY. On a state level, no one knows what might happen for sure. The written law is silent on the matter and there has been no case law to prove it one way or another. So, if you don't have a couple $100K and several years of your life to gamble with, at this time it's not a wise idea to make a handgun from a lower DROSed as a rifle but, it is not clearly illegal to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mail Clerk View Post
Rorge Retson,

Yes that's considered a SBR for sure. It has to be at least a 14.5" in barrel length and then an attached flash surpressor to make up the difference to 16" in total length.

What you could do is buy it and then attach a 5.5" surpressor on the end to make it an easy 16". I've seen at the shows some manufacturers screw/weld a permanent fake looking silensor/can. to make it 16" inches long.

Mail Clerk
WTF are you talking about? The upper by itself is not a SBR. It is nothing more than an upper. It's not even a firearm! It can be used to make a perfectly legal handgun or, with the permanent addition of a long muzzle devise, it can be made into a regular rifle.
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  #19  
Old 08-15-2012, 6:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mail Clerk View Post
Rorge Retson,

Yes that's considered a SBR for sure. It has to be at least a 14.5" in barrel length and then an attached flash surpressor to make up the difference to 16" in total length.

What you could do is buy it and then attach a 5.5" surpressor on the end to make it an easy 16". I've seen at the shows some manufacturers screw/weld a permanent fake looking silensor/can. to make it 16" inches long.

Mail Clerk
How is that upper an SBR?
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  #20  
Old 08-15-2012, 7:28 AM
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Originally Posted by HK Dave View Post
How is that upper an SBR?
HK Dave,

If you gonna use that on a rifle lower you turn that into a SBR. Pistol lowers there fine.

Mail Clerk
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  #21  
Old 08-15-2012, 9:57 AM
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So if you make an 80% lower do you have to register it as a pistol or is no registration required?
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  #22  
Old 08-15-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
So if you make an 80% lower do you have to register it as a pistol or is no registration required?
Registration is only required at time of transfer. If you manufacture it, it hasn't been transfered so, it does not need to be registered.
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  #23  
Old 08-15-2012, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mail Clerk View Post
HK Dave,

If you gonna use that on a rifle lower you turn that into a SBR. Pistol lowers there fine.

Mail Clerk
It's fine to use as a rifle AFTER an appropriate muzzle devise is permanently attached to it to make the barrel at least 16" long. Or, it could be used to make a non rifle title 1 firearm which is over 26" long and not designed to be fired from the shoulder.
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  #24  
Old 08-15-2012, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagduf View Post
In CA, yes.

IIRC, When your purchase an AR lower receiver in CA the DROS software only allows the FFL to mark that you purchased a long gun.

There is no option to mark it as a "pistol" (or "other" - which is what it is Federally) because of the Handgun Roster.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

To get an AR pistol in CA you need to either have some PPT a pistol lower (or AR pistol), purchase a completed AR pistol (via Single Shot Exemption) at an FFL, or manufacture your own lower receiver.
Or be a LEO-therefore roster exempt.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:09 AM
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Who can drill out the holes on an 80% lower???
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  #26  
Old 08-15-2012, 10:38 AM
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Who can drill out the holes on an 80% lower???
The person who is owns it. Anyone else would need an 07FFL and then DROS it to you.
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  #27  
Old 08-15-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHeavyHitter View Post
I asked around about the same issue (angled fore-grip) for a "featureless" AR and was told it's a considered a "forward grip". I would remove that ASAP, but then I don't want to be a test case..

Anyways, nice pistol!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHeavyHitter View Post
Thanks for your post. I have an angled foregrip that I'd been wanting to use on my featureless AR and was unaware of there being an official declaration of the AFG's status.
that letter is regarding an AFG on a pistol, not a featureless rifle.

The feds have said that the AFG on a pistol does not make an AOW. And even if CA says that that was a forward grip on a pistol does not matter on a maglocked pistol that can have evil features.

But on a featureless rifle, we don't know if CA would call it an evil feature, and with a regular mag release, that would be an AW if it was an evil feature.
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  #28  
Old 08-15-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by TitanIsrael View Post
Who can drill out the holes on an 80% lower???

You can by law you have to do it. You can't have someone else do it for you. Edit: what CANNONEER said.
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  #29  
Old 08-15-2012, 11:08 AM
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I thought it was constructive intent.

If I have a pistol upper and an lower with a pistol buffer; the intent it to build a pistol. Even though I have AR rifles in the safe too.

Now the pistol upper stored with AR rifles w/o a pistol lower would show intent to use with rifle lower.

Can someone verify or refute.

Thanks,
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  #30  
Old 08-15-2012, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mcisniper View Post
Now the pistol upper stored with AR rifles w/o a pistol lower would show intent to use with rifle lower.
I think it's the opposite - if you have a lower w/o a pistol upper, the assumption is that you intend to build a SBR.
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Old 08-15-2012, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rorge Retson View Post
I think it's the opposite - if you have a lower w/o a pistol upper, the assumption is that you intend to build a SBR.
I hope you are joking
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Old 08-15-2012, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 762.D3A7H View Post
Or be a LEO-therefore roster exempt.
I knew I missed something, thanks!

I'll update my original post.
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Quote:
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It is so nice to drop mags freely even though I do that now with my featureless AR and AK it is not the same as the real thing. Like Coca Cola here in the US compared to Mexico with real sugar not corn syrup!
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  #33  
Old 08-17-2012, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Rorge Retson View Post
I think it's the opposite - if you have a lower w/o a pistol upper, the assumption is that you intend to build a SBR.
hahahah. no.
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  #34  
Old 08-17-2012, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Rorge Retson View Post
Okay, now I am getting the appeal of an 80% lower....
So am I at this point.
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2012, 2:38 PM
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So am I at this point.
Time to get out of thinking mode and start building.

I use this place http://www.aresarmor.com/install/eco...w/hmgar15.html
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  #36  
Old 08-17-2012, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Synergy View Post
80% Pistol - 7" Barrel

Will never buy a 100% OLL again!

That is a "awesome looking" gun.

Please share details

Nicki
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  #37  
Old 08-17-2012, 3:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagduf View Post
In CA, yes.

IIRC, When your purchase an AR lower receiver in CA the DROS software only allows the FFL to mark that you purchased a long gun.

There is no option to mark it as a "pistol" (or "other" - which is what it is Federally) because of the Handgun Roster.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

To get an AR pistol in CA you need to either have some PPT a pistol lower (or AR pistol), purchase a completed AR pistol (via Single Shot Exemption) at an FFL, or manufacture your own lower receiver.

EDIT: Or you can acquire a pistol lower if you are an individual who is exempt from the Roster such as an LEO. - Thanks to 762.D3A7H for reminding me of that!
What if someone from out of state moves to CA with a stripped lower can they sell it as a pistol?
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2012, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kenshinoro2007 View Post
hahahah. no.
Just checking to see who is paying attention...
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  #39  
Old 08-18-2012, 4:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Rorge Retson View Post
Just checking to see who is paying attention...
lol.
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  #40  
Old 08-18-2012, 6:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al8550 View Post
What if someone from out of state moves to CA with a stripped lower can they sell it as a pistol?
As long as it has never been configured as a rifle or shotgun, it would be legal. I suggest that the one moving here first registers it as a handgun.
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