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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 07-28-2012, 9:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntercf View Post
Sorry, my bad, it is illegal to use it on a centerfire rifle with "evil" features in CA.
FIFY.
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  #42  
Old 07-28-2012, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by huntercf View Post
Sorry, my bad, it is illegal to use it in CA.
Since when is it illegal to use a tool to remove a magazine with a BB? There is no current case law that says the MM is illegal. Only advice from CGF that a DA could argue that it is.
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  #43  
Old 07-29-2012, 8:21 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Since when is it illegal to use a tool to remove a magazine with a BB? There is no current case law that says the MM is illegal. Only advice from CGF that a DA could argue that it is.
If you use your brain, you can see that a magnet attaches the tool to the rifle which is illegal, just like tying a bullet on a string to the trigger guard (on a featured centerfire bullet buttoned semi-automatic rifle).

When something is attached, it becomes part of the gun, so a mag-magnet becomes a mag release button that can be operated without a tool when it is placed on the bullet button of a featured semi-auto rifle.

Please do not continue to spread the fiction that the mag-magnet does not create an unregistered "assault weapon" when used that way.
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  #44  
Old 07-29-2012, 8:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Changalang View Post
enjoy your poison pancakes
Please don't say that, not even jokingly.
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  #45  
Old 07-29-2012, 8:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wash View Post
If you use your brain, you can see that a magnet attaches the tool to the rifle which is illegal, just like tying a bullet on a string to the trigger guard (on a featured centerfire bullet buttoned semi-automatic rifle).

When something is attached, it becomes part of the gun, so a mag-magnet becomes a mag release button that can be operated without a tool when it is placed on the bullet button of a featured semi-auto rifle.

Please do not continue to spread the fiction that the mag-magnet does not create an unregistered "assault weapon" when used that way.
This is where minds need to learn to expand^^^ Using a magnetic tool does not mean what you say! If my screw gun has a magnetic tip, does that mean the screw gun is now a part of the screw? Or, apart of the wall as i am using it?The problem here is that those not in the trades or mechanical fields have a problem with understanding what constitutes a tool. There are MANY tools that NEED to attach themselves temporarily for the job at hand. Your opinion on a tool is just that Your Opinion. I use tools everyday and can tell you that when i use a tool sometimes it is in constant contact with the job at hand for very long periods of time. YOU ARE WRONG in your TOOL interpretation.
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  #46  
Old 07-29-2012, 8:35 AM
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But I don't like Kool-Aid Pancakes.
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  #47  
Old 07-29-2012, 8:35 AM
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Wash, the law reads "must be removed with the use of a tool" Where exactly does it say "except a magnetic tool"?

That "tool" can still be used and removed after every single removal of the magazine. Just as a bullet can still be fired after being used as a tool.
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  #48  
Old 07-29-2012, 9:40 AM
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Re-read my post.

Anything attached to your gun becomes part of your gun.

This isn't a philosophical argument, it's a legal argument.

Use a mag-magnet illegally at your peril.
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  #49  
Old 07-29-2012, 9:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Re-read my post.

Anything attached to your gun becomes part of your gun.

This isn't a philosophical argument, it's a legal argument.

Use a mag-magnet illegally at your peril.
define attaching. What law says you can't attach something to your gun? Are we talking permanence, temporary, incidental? What about the magazine argument and permanence of a block? Why the do you need a rivet or epoxy to make a 10/30? You spout off your opinions but never seem to back it up with proof.
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  #50  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:00 AM
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Wash, based on your analysis, if i strap on a holster, place a gun in it and snap it in,(all mechanically fastened) guess the firearm is no longer a firearm but now a part of me? That would mean LE would have no reason to check my firearm for its condition since its no longer a firearm but a part of my person.
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  #51  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
define attaching. What law says you can't attach something to your gun? Are we talking permanence, temporary, incidental? What about the magazine argument and permanence of a block? Why the do you need a rivet or epoxy to make a 10/30? You spout off your opinions but never seem to back it up with proof.
Define 'detatchable'... In reference to Yee, this is what we ought to be debating... as he seems to have the greatest difficulty in understanding that a magazine that is 'fixed' is not 'detatchable' without the use of a tool. Futher, the language of the bill does nothing to attempt to define new terms such as 'conversion kits', specifically listing and describing the parts that shall be included using this nomenclature.

Put your fight to Yee, not in a fruitless dispute over what already is, or isnt legal among 2A bretheren.
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  #52  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:33 AM
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Eat your share of pancakes, then stand up and complain that the spoon made you fat.
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  #53  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Define 'detatchable'... In reference to Yee, this is what we ought to be debating... as he seems to have the greatest difficulty in understanding that a magazine that is 'fixed' is not 'detatchable' without the use of a tool. Futher, the language of the bill does nothing to attempt to define new terms such as 'conversion kits', specifically listing and describing the parts that shall be included using this nomenclature.

Put your fight to Yee, not in a fruitless dispute over what already is, or isnt legal among 2A bretheren.
My fight is towards Yee! 1: the MM is in fact a tool 2: those determining the MM as a felony button may not be familiar with what a tool really is. My opinion is spot on that the MM IS a tool, its NOT mechanically attached, and can be used and removed after each detachment of a magazine. Those who came up with the term "felony button" IMHO did not think this through for what it really is. Notwithstanding, i never said that a DA would lose this case in court. However, using my knowledge of tools in every other aspect of life would tell you that this is simply a perfect tool for the job.

If Yee wants to make something like the MM illegal he needs to say what it is exactly and simply imply that the MM would be an illegal tool to use with a BB. If he does not and the legislature doesn't allow for making it illegal then it is then legal by default as a tool. IMHO
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  #54  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:42 AM
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Quick question: do you think a quick detach VFG on a handgun makes it an AOW?

It's easy to remove...

The answer is yes, attached is attached regardless of how permanent it is.

Detachable means something that can be removed without the use of tools.

If something is attached it becomes part of the firearm. Once you attach a mag-magnet, you no longer need a tool to detach the magazine.

The fact that it only attaches through magnetic force is irrelevant. Attached is attached.
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  #55  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:44 AM
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I heard that Leland Yee will be introducing a bill that pancakes have to be transported in a locked container with no syrup on them. Also, no cakes larger than 4 1/2” x 1/2” will be allowed unless you are a LEO.
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  #56  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by wash View Post
Quick question: do you think a quick detach VFG on a handgun makes it an AOW?

It's easy to remove...

The answer is yes, attached is attached regardless of how permanent it is.

Detachable means something that can be removed without the use of tools.

If something is attached it becomes part of the firearm. Once you attach a mag-magnet, you no longer need a tool to detach the magazine.

The fact that it only attaches through magnetic force is irrelevant. Attached is attached.
Thank you for showing your ignorance in regards to tools. So, answer my question, If you mechanically attach a firearm to your side, is it now a part of you or are you carrying a firearm?
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  #57  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:52 AM
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Oh, how about this IQ test, the Bill you quoted in your signature probably coined the term felony button (after I brought the mag-magnet booth to his attention at the cow palace gun show a while back).

The mag-magnet people were not the first to come up with the magnetic bullet button tool idea, they were just the first to run with a bad idea and market it in a very irresponsible way.

For some reason you want to encourage criminal behavior.

Stop it!
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  #58  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Oh, how about this IQ test, the Bill you quoted in your signature probably coined the term felony button (after I brought the mag-magnet booth to his attention at the cow palace gun show a while back).

The mag-magnet people were not the first to come up with the magnetic bullet button tool idea, they were just the first to run with a bad idea and market it in a very irresponsible way.

For some reason you want to encourage criminal behavior.

Stop it!
No one is perfect. Like i said not everyone is well versed in tools. Why won't you answer my question? If you attach a firearm to your side mechanically are you carrying the firearm or is it mechanically attached to you thus making it a part of your person?
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  #59  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
When someone says let's tea party him, I think that's as bad as saying: let's occupy breakfast!

Let's be politically active citizen voters and civil rights activists.

Tea party and occupy are both divisive movements that are not as powerful as a large group of single issue voters from across the political spectrum.
Until the OWS movement actually has a representative voted into Congress -

Stating they have the same influence or power is simply inaccurate.

That said - Confrontng Yee on the points mentioned IN PUBLIC ON VIDEO -

Is the best way to help these delusional anti-gunners to STFU....
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  #60  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Oh, how about this IQ test, the Bill you quoted in your signature probably coined the term felony button (after I brought the mag-magnet booth to his attention at the cow palace gun show a while back).

The mag-magnet people were not the first to come up with the magnetic bullet button tool idea, they were just the first to run with a bad idea and market it in a very irresponsible way.

For some reason you want to encourage criminal behavior.

Stop it!
Its opinions like this^^^ that stalls our gun rights progressions. What if the inventor of the BB took your advice if you said the same thing about the BB? Where would we be today?
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  #61  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:58 AM
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I second dress appropriate and be nice but and courteous in how u speak. The public is not going to be swayed by your questions or his answer it's about who is more articulate and the tone they have with the crowd. The best way is to have the effect of doubt in people's minds so as to create questions about Yees true agenda and motives. Good luck and you will prevail. Tee will be out of office soon I predict less than 2 years.
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  #62  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:58 AM
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Well you seem to be ignorant of legal arguments.

Just because you're a tool and a gun is kind of attached to you when you are holding it doesn't make it legal to use an attached tool to remove a magazine from a featured semi-automatic centerfire bullet buttoned rifle.
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  #63  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:00 AM
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Well you seem to be ignorant of legal arguments.

Just because you're a tool and a gun is kind of attached to you when you are holding it doesn't make it legal to use an attached tool to remove a magazine from a featured semi-automatic centerfire bullet buttoned rifle.
And your case law link is where?
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  #64  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:01 AM
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Thank you for showing your ignorance in regards to tools. So, answer my question, If you mechanically attach a firearm to your side, is it now a part of you or are you carrying a firearm?
Your analogy here doesn't hold water. Attaching something to a firearm is regularly understood to modify the legal status of that firearm. Attach a flash hider to your featureless rifle, you have an AW; attach a stock to your pistol, you have an SBR; attach a mag-magnet to your BB'd rifle and you can now drop mags with your finger... you've got an AW.

Attaching something to a persons hip does not have the same effect in any legal sense. It does not somehow change the person.
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  #65  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:06 AM
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Why can't the mag-magnet people find a lawyer to say that it's legal to use on an unregistered featured centerfire semi-automatic rifle?

The answer is because any lawyer who can read the penal code and previous legal decisions knows that it is not legal to use that way.

The mag-magnet people are very happy to tell you that they include a letter from their lawyer establishing the legality of the mag-magnet but the letter pretty much says it's legal to sell and own, it doesn't mention use on unregistered featured semi-automatic centerfire rifles.
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  #66  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:08 AM
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Your analogy here doesn't hold water. Attaching something to a firearm is regularly understood to modify the legal status of that firearm. Attach a flash hider to your featureless rifle, you have an AW; attach a stock to your pistol, you have an SBR; attach a mag-magnet to your BB'd rifle and you can now drop mags with your finger... you've got an AW.

Attaching something to a persons hip does not have the same effect in any legal sense. It does not somehow change the person.
REALLY? Have we not been telling the CA government that a semi auto is not an AW? Have we not been telling the government that looks does not change the ability of the firearm to shoot a bullet? Are you also saying that a person carrying a firearm does not have the inherent ability to protect themselves as opposed to someone not carrying? I always though someone carrying IS a game changer in their abilities to preserve life as opposed to those who do not carry. It does change the persons ability!
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:12 AM
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Ok Matlock.
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  #68  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by wash View Post
Why can't the mag-magnet people find a lawyer to say that it's legal to use on an unregistered featured centerfire semi-automatic rifle?

The answer is because any lawyer who can read the penal code and previous legal decisions knows that it is not legal to use that way.

The mag-magnet people are very happy to tell you that they include a letter from their lawyer establishing the legality of the mag-magnet but the letter pretty much says it's legal to sell and own, it doesn't mention use on unregistered featured semi-automatic centerfire rifles.
WHAT previous legal decisions in regards to the BB and or MM are you referring to? Is it the one acknowledging that a bullet is one of the acceptable tools for use on a BB? I think you are basing arguments on advice and not law.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:13 AM
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Ok Matlock.
OK Leyland
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:17 AM
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REALLY? Have we not been telling the CA government that a semi auto is not an AW? Have we not been telling the government that looks does not change the ability of the firearm to shoot a bullet? Are you also saying that a person carrying a firearm does not have the inherent ability to protect themselves as opposed to someone not carrying? I always though someone carrying IS a game changer in their abilities to preserve life as opposed to those who do not carry. It does change the persons ability!
I can't tell if you're intentionally obfuscating or just missed the point, but you seem to only be responding to the portion of my post which you bolded rather than taking it as a whole. I was not in any way referring to ones ability to defend themselves.

Again, your argument takes a fatal misstep in logic by analogizing a firearm to a person. Attaching something to a firearm commonly changes the legal status of that firearm. The same is not true of a person, attachment is not the operative word but rather what one is concealing or carrying.

Experience in the use of tools does not in this case translate to experience in interpreting the way the law works in regards to tools.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:21 AM
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Wash my whole point on all this is simple. Not One Inch! If we fight Yee to prove that this is in fact a tool, and its accepted as such, what do we have to lose? Wouldn't the next step be that the AW laws in CA are now moot since the perfect tool moots the current laws on BB equipped firearms?

Again, what ever happened to "not one inch?'

If i go to this breakfast, i will bring a plethora of stumping questions for the Senator!!
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Well you seem to be ignorant of legal arguments.

Just because you're a tool and a gun is kind of attached to you when you are holding it doesn't make it legal to use an attached tool to remove a magazine from a featured semi-automatic centerfire bullet buttoned rifle.
I think Taperxz is arguing is how a magnet actually works. Magnetism is an attracting force, not a mechanical bond. If you display your child's A+ test to on your refrigerator door with a magnet, is that "attaching" the paper to your refrigerator? It is a technicality that I don't want to be the test case on, but he dose have a valid point.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:23 AM
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I can't tell if you're intentionally obfuscating or just missed the point, but you seem to only be responding to the portion of my post which you bolded rather than taking it as a whole. I was not in any way referring to ones ability to defend themselves.

Again, your argument takes a fatal misstep in logic by analogizing a firearm to a person. Attaching something to a firearm commonly changes the legal status of that firearm. The same is not true of a person, attachment is not the operative word but rather what one is concealing or carrying.

Experience in the use of tools does not in this case translate to experience in interpreting the way the law works in regards to tools.



Again, what law limiting what type of tool for use on a BB are you talking about?
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  #74  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:23 AM
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Bring in a bullet button and a mop. Ask him if he knows which is which.
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  #75  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
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I think Taperxz is arguing is how a magnet actually works. Magnetism is an attracting force, not a mechanical bond. If you display your child's A+ test to on your refrigerator door with a magnet, is that "attaching" the paper to your refrigerator? It is a technicality that I don't want to be the test case on, but he dose have a valid point.



I certainly agree with this! I wouldn't want anyone to be a test subject! Since Yee has decided to take the route he has though, We can certainly use his idea for our gain though.
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  #76  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:32 AM
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Connor P Price Connor P Price is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
[/B]

Again, what law limiting what type of tool for use on a BB are you talking about?
The law doesn't work in the way you seem to be suggesting it does. There is not a specific law at this time spelling out what type of tool can be used.

The law regulates detachable magazines. A magazine is detachable if it may be readily removed without the use of a tool. A tool is understood to be something separate from either the person using the firearm or the firearm itself.

In all cases I'm aware of when something is attached to a firearm it becomes an integral part of the firearm as far as the law is concerned. Think flash hiders, vertical foregrips, telescoping stocks etc. Once the mag-magnet is attached to the firearm it ceases to be a tool and becomes an integral part of the firearm in a legal sense, so removal of the magazine then requires only the persons finger and the firearm, no tool.

ETA: Your "not one inch" mentality is admirable, and I agree that Yee must be fought here. See Brandon's thread on a good way to do that, arguing that the mag-magnet is legal is a losing battle and not the right way to go about refusing to give an inch to the opposition.
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Last edited by Connor P Price; 07-29-2012 at 11:44 AM..
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  #77  
Old 07-29-2012, 12:28 PM
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I'm sure Senator Yee will have security and armed personnel present for protection at the same time he is denying the same rights for us common law abiding folk.
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Old 07-29-2012, 2:34 PM
me109g4 me109g4 is offline
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Stop bickering and get back to the task at hand, you have a chance here to pin this chump down in front of his constituents, I would suggest you bring some people who are capable of posing some real questions at him while being able to hold thier own. And i would suggest also you take this to PM and get rid of this thread,,,
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  #79  
Old 07-29-2012, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Well you seem to be ignorant of legal arguments.

Just because you're a tool and a gun is kind of attached to you when you are holding it doesn't make it legal to use an attached tool to remove a magazine from a featured semi-automatic centerfire bullet buttoned rifle.
Ooooh... personal attacks... I guess you win!
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  #80  
Old 07-29-2012, 2:49 PM
Wiz-of-Awd Wiz-of-Awd is offline
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Originally Posted by donw View Post
carefully, politely and respectfully craft your question(s)...and keep in mind: most politicians/legislators do NOT like to be "Challenged".

i would attend just to see "What it's all about" (and the free b'fast...)
Yes.

Your goal here is not to intimidate or coerce Yee into a debate perse, but rather to show the rest of the voting people along side you that there is another point of view. One that makes sense and is not from an extremist or gun nut.

Choose not to antagonize the enemy, but rather strengthen your own side with new allies.

A.W.D.
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