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  #201  
Old 05-19-2012, 6:53 AM
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Asked this Q earlier but no one responded, so I thought I'd try again...

1) Is frame prep different for 9mm compared to .45? (slide rail, Barrel seat etc.)

... or is it just the custom fitting of the slide to frame ...

I'm also in for a parts GB and OC/South OC build party!
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  #202  
Old 05-19-2012, 8:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htfan View Post
Asked this Q earlier but no one responded, so I thought I'd try again...

1) Is frame prep different for 9mm compared to .45? (slide rail, Barrel seat etc.)

... or is it just the custom fitting of the slide to frame ...

I'm also in for a parts GB and OC/South OC build party!
IIRC, it is a matter of which parts you put on the frame after it is made. You use a different slide and ejector, but they all fit on the same basic frame. It is the same for .38 Super and .40 S&W. They all require slightly different parts that go on the basic frame.

-Mb
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  #203  
Old 05-19-2012, 8:06 AM
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^^^ also remember that if you run a ramped barrel the seat for the ramp will also need to be cut, dont know if these frames have the feed ramp cut into them yet at all .....
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  #204  
Old 05-19-2012, 8:15 AM
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Yeah this thread went a bit off topic for a bit.the whole point was not how you can get the project done.it was about realistically what the best option was for those with out a mill. Again the best option is not a router in my opinion.neither are hand files. Because well it's almost the same thing as using your teeth.the problem with a router is that it wont cut accurately.so to do this method you simply use the same theory as cnc guns ar jig with the 30+ holes. You just UNDERCUT.then hand file for how ever long it takes to blister your hands off.then lapping compound. It's not hard or impossible...it's just in my eyes the same thing as washing your truck with a tooth brush. As for a key cutter being the "proper"way.. You can turn the jig over to the side and do the rail with a small end mill. There is no wrong and right way to do this. Just an easy and hard. Any one who wants to consider the router method should really wait and go to a build party if you don't know what you're doing.for those of you who only just saw that picture of the router and 1911 rails.. Let me make it clear that when the hand full of us who looked into 1911 80% years ago and we saw that..the comments were along the line of holy hell this guy is crazy with too much money and time to waste.there was also a guy who if I recall used stacked hack saw blades.smartest idea...Hell no. Gangster points...+100
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  #205  
Old 05-19-2012, 8:20 AM
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Any ways..now I have a question for the build. Building these will be simple for me. The problem is that the description stated it will use series 70parts. I don't know the difference between the 70 and 80 series. And what and why parts are different.most companies use 80 series like kimber? I think colt was the only one who made 70 series still? Don't quote me this is all in question form. Can some 1911 masters come in to clarify?

Last edited by savs2k; 05-19-2012 at 8:25 AM.. Reason: auto correct on my phone makes me sound stupid
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  #206  
Old 05-19-2012, 8:37 AM
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http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=15201


Quote:
Originally Posted by savs2k View Post
Yeah this thread went a bit off topic for a bit.the whole point was not how you can get the project done.it was about realistically what the best option was for those with out a mill. Again the best option is not a router in my opinion.neither are hand files. Because well it's almost the same thing as using your teeth.the problem with a router is that it wont cut accurately.so to do this method you simply use the same theory as cnc guns ar jig with the 30+ holes. You just UNDERCUT.then hand file for how ever long it takes to blister your hands off.then lapping compound. It's not hard or impossible...it's just in my eyes the same thing as washing your truck with a tooth brush. As for a key cutter being the "proper"way.. You can turn the jig over to the side and do the rail with a small end mill. There is no wrong and right way to do this. Just an easy and hard. Any one who wants to consider the router method should really wait and go to a build party if you don't know what you're doing.for those of you who only just saw that picture of the router and 1911 rails.. Let me make it clear that when the hand full of us who looked into 1911 80% years ago and we saw that..the comments were along the line of holy hell this guy is crazy with too much money and time to waste.there was also a guy who if I recall used stacked hack saw blades.smartest idea...Hell no. Gangster points...+100
not sure why you all would think " hell this guy is crazy with too much money" when i watched it sarco had frame for 30 bucks a pop but will admit i wont be doing it on this frame as i am only getting one and will be looking for a build party in my area or will be using my mini lathe as a milling machine .... got to use what you have access to ....
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  #207  
Old 05-19-2012, 9:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeepers View Post
So please correct me if I am wrong. I plan on building a commander length in either 9mm or 40 SW. Looking at the info in that link the pre-seris 70 internals are the same as the series 70, just the barrel bushing was changed. If I was to get one of the sarco kits minus the slide and barrel Will it work?

It was posted the frame will use series 70 parts. I'm not sure if the pre-70 parts would work.

http://e-sarcoinc.com/search.aspx?find=c45096
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  #208  
Old 05-19-2012, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gun toting monkeyboy View Post
IIRC, it is a matter of which parts you put on the frame after it is made. You use a different slide and ejector, but they all fit on the same basic frame. It is the same for .38 Super and .40 S&W. They all require slightly different parts that go on the basic frame.

-Mb
Thanks! That is what I thought and just needed confirmation.

Overall milling is standard for the frame. However, differences in individual parts will need to be fitted on our own. (with file in hand.)
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  #209  
Old 05-19-2012, 9:54 AM
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^^^ also remember that if you run a ramped barrel the seat for the ramp will also need to be cut, dont know if these frames have the feed ramp cut into them yet at all .....
Good point! What is the school of thought on ramped vs non?

Link to a thread is appreciated too.
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  #210  
Old 05-19-2012, 12:26 PM
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Jeepers, as a machinist when you see someone using a dremel to cut multiple rails to spec ours nothing more then amazing. Even my first few times on a manual mill,I admit I couldn't make any parts within the proper tolerances. I can't imagine someone using a dremel and that be one of the main ways suggested to people who have low to zero machining experience. I guess my answer to your question is any idiot could make a line into steel with a dremel. But there are only a few who can do it into the correct tolerances and not create binding
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  #211  
Old 05-19-2012, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by savs2k View Post
Jeepers, as a machinist when you see someone using a dremel to cut multiple rails to spec ours nothing more then amazing. Even my first few times on a manual mill,I admit I couldn't make any parts within the proper tolerances. I can't imagine someone using a dremel and that be one of the main ways suggested to people who have low to zero machining experience. I guess my answer to your question is any idiot could make a line into steel with a dremel. But there are only a few who can do it into the correct tolerances and not create binding
more then fair , but never say it cant be done folks where working with metal long before a mill ,lathe or electricity
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  #212  
Old 05-20-2012, 4:57 PM
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Anything is possible. If someone was up for a challenge. I'd be willing to buy one more frame and do the project with hacksaw blades if one of the the other members have the skills and tools to attack this with a dremel and router. And post up a tutorial for the other members. For the barrel seat I'd probably try to use a drill bit for the depth leaving some meat and hand file the rest and glue sandpaper on a barrel to smoothen it out. Sounds crazy but like you said anything is possible. I just won't be excited to try it. If I could get it to work I'd just fit a sarcro kit on it and leave the pos in my bug out bag and forget about it until I find it during the end of days. Waste of a good lower but if anyone wants to do a barbarian build off I'm game. Any takers?
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  #213  
Old 05-21-2012, 5:16 PM
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in for one frame. please pm payment info
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  #214  
Old 05-21-2012, 7:31 PM
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was hoping to see some real pictures of the prototype after the weekend...
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  #215  
Old 05-21-2012, 7:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htfan View Post
was hoping to see some real pictures of the prototype after the weekend...
^THIS

glbtrottr and/or The Banana, can you please encourage Ares to provide you with some pictures, or better yet come here themselves and post them?
we REALLY want to see what is being offered. it's important.
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  #216  
Old 05-21-2012, 7:49 PM
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Agreed, I am really interested but I don't want to hop in until I see this polymer grip deal
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  #217  
Old 05-21-2012, 8:51 PM
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We hear you, waiting on Ares. The confirmed list is F: 105 J: 27 now based on their reputation alone and have a feeling after they post photos that that number will jump substantially. As SOON as we have them we will post them up top and OF COURSE Ares is welcomed to do that, either way.
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  #218  
Old 05-21-2012, 9:33 PM
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I concur, I am "in", assuming I can see some sort of image of the product I am buying.

With the economy the way it is, i've been burned a few times lately so I am extra careful.
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  #219  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:04 PM
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I'll take 2 80% and a jig.
I'll need shipping to 95368.
Please PM me with payment details.
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  #220  
Old 05-22-2012, 7:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Banana View Post
We hear you, waiting on Ares. The confirmed list is F: 105 J: 27 now based on their reputation alone and have a feeling after they post photos that that number will jump substantially. As SOON as we have them we will post them up top and OF COURSE Ares is welcomed to do that, either way.
soon would be good. there really is no reason for this to be such a tooth-pulling exercise.
it would be nice to hear straight from them that they have BATFE approval of their design as well (better yet post a copy of the declaration letter).
i'm already committed to the GB (have paid for 2 frames and a jig) but unless i see something soon i'll be cancelling payment.
i know the actual delivery is months away but i'm not tying my funds up for some kind of promise with no evidence that it will be fulfilled. if Ares can't be bothered to post a few pix after this many requests, how well does that bode for their ability to fulfill the order with quality product in a timely fashion and offer customer support?
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  #221  
Old 05-22-2012, 4:25 PM
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Goober, and all -

I've been out of touch for 24-36 hours. Yup, I work. Please be patient - I respond and update in bulk, as does the banana.

The guys at Ares are a bunch of good Marines trying to get their business to grow and change. Good for them.

We all have money tied up on this group buy, and I personally am invested in ensuring this group buy and product is successful - why? I'm an amateur enthusiast. Heck, I'm shopping around for a mill...have you seen the rest of 80%'ers from Sig, to 1911, AR's and the like? That's creepy - a mill. Moreover, I've been 100 percent transparent on everything communicated my way by Ares and communicating your desires.

I am just a customer as you all, and have just as much desire for these lads to get some of you what you need.

Now - on the BATF approval: I've left a message for Dimitri, who according to Aaron is at school this minute...as is Jeremy. Their reputation is pretty spot on, and I have no reason to doubt that they will deliver. They've been taken to task in the past on more than a few items, and have come out golden. This isn't Botach or Gunworld we're dealing with - they're Marines with integrity.

On pictures, I spoke with Dimitri and he gave me some good reasons as to why they had not released pictures or delayed so far - and it was not a lack of existence of the frame.

Ares is taking pictures on June 1 both per Aaron and per Dimitri, along with a videotape both building the 80% to a firearm, which they will be releasing to their mailing list of several thousand users. I accepted that answer, but I understand if some of you will not - let's keep things in perspective on a group buy that has been going on about a week, with an intended delivery of 3-4.5 months or so. Ares asked for a little bit of time on Wednesday, a week or two, and I said OK. If that's not fast enough, I totally understand - but as I said in my mail and at the beginning of the thread...instant gratification isn't the name of this thread....

Dimitri also committed to have the frame reviewed for tolerances by some of the people that we brought onboard - and if we can be patient as that happens, that would be great. That results in infinitely better product, either at my expense or based on the kindness of those who cut up 1911's for a living every day - so patience will buy us a far better quality product.

The person holding the money in this conversation is me, not Ares, and Goober, if you want me to paypal you a refund as you paid via paypal, I'll readily do so. I'd rather not, as I think it sends the wrong message to the group buy participants and all those of us who committed to the buy - that, and you're a knowledgeable guy who I'm sure can bring a ton to the group during these builds. Consider sticking it out for a few more days.

I also asked for the CAD dimensions and tolerances, as I was in the middle of trying to get us all some improved pricing on things desired.

I'll let you all know what I hear from Ares as soon as I hear back, and hopefully all of you will continue growing this group buy - it will certainly help us negotiate better discounts in the end.

Thank you!
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  #222  
Old 05-22-2012, 4:56 PM
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As much as I want to see pictures, I have worked in the machining industry and I know that the only time pictures should be posted are upon a flawless part. Everyone should be patient because we all jumped on this with the quickness even though it was just a preorder. If it was already in production it's more then reasonable to want pictures now. The cad drawings themselves posted prove these are legitimate. With the cad file any machineshop could produce the product. I honestly believe the hold up is with the jig. If they decided to anodize the jig the original cad file would have to be adjusted because the original measurement would have to be redone deeper to compensate for any coating done to the jig. If that wasn't done we would just have more work to do while fitting the slide and would bad mouth the company on fitment issues. I wouldn't want to rush the quality on our frames at all. I can't speak for everyone but I'd be satisfied at least seeing the grip design sooner.
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  #223  
Old 05-22-2012, 5:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savs2k View Post
As much as I want to see pictures, I have worked in the machining industry and I know that the only time pictures should be posted are upon a flawless part. Everyone should be patient because we all jumped on this with the quickness even though it was just a preorder. If it was already in production it's more then reasonable to want pictures now. The cad drawings themselves posted prove these are legitimate. With the cad file any machineshop could produce the product. I honestly believe the hold up is with the jig. If they decided to anodize the jig the original cad file would have to be adjusted because the original measurement would have to be redone deeper to compensate for any coating done to the jig. If that wasn't done we would just have more work to do while fitting the slide and would bad mouth the company on fitment issues. I wouldn't want to rush the quality on our frames at all. I can't speak for everyone but I'd be satisfied at least seeing the grip design sooner.
lol..the only thing keeping me from pre-ordering more than 1.

Although I disagree with you on the jig anodization part. I have never had to compensate dimensions or tolerances in the model or drawings because of plating/coating. And I've worked on some super tight toleranced things, e.g. military optical related. I guess that's the benefit of working with US shops that knows what they're doing.

China? forget about it.
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  #224  
Old 05-22-2012, 5:33 PM
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I think of it as if you finished an ar lower and anodized it after. The anodizing depending on thickness makes the fcg pocket too thick and needs to be shaved down a bit to fit the trigger. Happened to me twice. Everything installed and functioned perfectly and I stripped it down to anodize and came back out of spec because the coating. It's not much but I rather have less hand fitting to do on the rails on here.
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  #225  
Old 05-22-2012, 5:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savs2k View Post
I think of it as if you finished an ar lower and anodized it after. The anodizing depending on thickness makes the fcg pocket too thick and needs to be shaved down a bit to fit the trigger. Happened to me twice. Everything installed and functioned perfectly and I stripped it down to anodize and came back out of spec because the coating. It's not much but I rather have less hand fitting to do on the rails on here.
hee hee, happened to me too.

but I'm no machinist. this is how I usually take care of my problems.

notes:
..
..
3. all dimensions and tolerances apply after plating.
4..

I can tell you one thing though, when I first started( mechanical eng/designer) I learned a lot just by going to the shop and talking to the machinists. I've met many designers that has no idea what goes on outside of their cad program. They don't think about what steps are required, set up time, new tooling for non-standard features.
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  #226  
Old 05-22-2012, 6:01 PM
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I fell under the machinist who didn't care for much except blueprints and tolerances category. If you give me a part to make I'll make it how ever your file tells me even if I know after it's coated it wont fit. The customer is always right after all. I would make a comment about it but usually only larger companies spend the money to do it right. Everyone else chooses to cut corners for cost and say take the part to anodize somewhere on their own and don't know what level anodizing they're doing our how much of a coat is going on. They only know they're saving $15 a dip do that's not my problem until they want the part remade. Anyways to stay on topic I'm sure they know of this and it's part of their final tolerance inspection which is why I'm not bothered with the wait time. The poly grip on the other hand is simple enough to show a real picture and in this case very important because I don't want a half Glock half 1911 Bastard child. And I'm curious if there will be a flared Magwell and how an aggressive of a checkering
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  #227  
Old 05-22-2012, 6:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glbtrottr View Post
Goober, and all -

I've been out of touch for 24-36 hours. Yup, I work. Please be patient - I respond and update in bulk, as does the banana.

The guys at Ares are a bunch of good Marines trying to get their business to grow and change. Good for them.

We all have money tied up on this group buy, and I personally am invested in ensuring this group buy and product is successful - why? I'm an amateur enthusiast. Heck, I'm shopping around for a mill...have you seen the rest of 80%'ers from Sig, to 1911, AR's and the like? That's creepy - a mill. Moreover, I've been 100 percent transparent on everything communicated my way by Ares and communicating your desires.

I am just a customer as you all, and have just as much desire for these lads to get some of you what you need.

Now - on the BATF approval: I've left a message for Dimitri, who according to Aaron is at school this minute...as is Jeremy. Their reputation is pretty spot on, and I have no reason to doubt that they will deliver. They've been taken to task in the past on more than a few items, and have come out golden. This isn't Botach or Gunworld we're dealing with - they're Marines with integrity.

On pictures, I spoke with Dimitri and he gave me some good reasons as to why they had not released pictures or delayed so far - and it was not a lack of existence of the frame.

Ares is taking pictures on June 1 both per Aaron and per Dimitri, along with a videotape both building the 80% to a firearm, which they will be releasing to their mailing list of several thousand users. I accepted that answer, but I understand if some of you will not - let's keep things in perspective on a group buy that has been going on about a week, with an intended delivery of 3-4.5 months or so. Ares asked for a little bit of time on Wednesday, a week or two, and I said OK. If that's not fast enough, I totally understand - but as I said in my mail and at the beginning of the thread...instant gratification isn't the name of this thread....

Dimitri also committed to have the frame reviewed for tolerances by some of the people that we brought onboard - and if we can be patient as that happens, that would be great. That results in infinitely better product, either at my expense or based on the kindness of those who cut up 1911's for a living every day - so patience will buy us a far better quality product.

The person holding the money in this conversation is me, not Ares, and Goober, if you want me to paypal you a refund as you paid via paypal, I'll readily do so. I'd rather not, as I think it sends the wrong message to the group buy participants and all those of us who committed to the buy - that, and you're a knowledgeable guy who I'm sure can bring a ton to the group during these builds. Consider sticking it out for a few more days.

I also asked for the CAD dimensions and tolerances, as I was in the middle of trying to get us all some improved pricing on things desired.

I'll let you all know what I hear from Ares as soon as I hear back, and hopefully all of you will continue growing this group buy - it will certainly help us negotiate better discounts in the end.

Thank you!
Thanks, globtrottr, for your thorough response.
Communication is key in these deals.
I fully realize that you and The Banana have RealLives™ and that a few days with no response should not be cause for alarm.
I fully understand the timeline involved. I'm not expecting product any earlier than projected, and will be fine if it takes even longer, within reason. But given that we are signing up for the long haul, I don't think its unreasonable for folks to want to see what they are signing up for. I jumped on this buy, gladly, and paid up front fully aware of the fact that my money will be tied up for several months. That's how much I want this to happen.
My ratcheting of the urgency on the issue of pictures was motivated by the repeated requests of several folks over the course of the week, and the lack of anything but some platitudes to the effect of "we know you want to see the product, but we must get tolerances exact before taking a picture".
With all due respect to savs2k (sincerely), I don't subscribe to the "part must be exactly perfect before you show a picture of it" idea. A prototype is just that. State as much, and a small burr or machining mark here or there is forgiven. But pictures of actual metal (and poly) parts mean a lot more than CAD renderings.
Regarding the BATFE approval, prior to seeing the actual letter, a simple statement from Ares that they have the letter in hand would be nice. I don't believe it's even been brought up prior to my mentioning it. Not doubting anyone's word in the least; but there is a difference between left unsaid and a statement, I think we can all agree on that.
Finally, I don't doubt the integrity of you or the folks at Ares, but thank you for the background info and character references. I don't want a refund or to pull out of the GB. I want to see this happen hugely and successfully and repeatedly. I'm not grousing or trying to dissuade anyone from participating.
So thanks for the comms, they mean a lot. I'll sit tight and stop my clamoring for pix. I'm optimistic that Ares will show real images of the cool product we all want to buy very soon. Apologies for hounding you, and if it seemed like I was crapping on the buy, I assure you that was not my intent.
And thank you for the time and effort you're putting into this (and dealing w/ grumpy ol' curmudgeons like me )... I know what running one of these GBs is like... And fully appreciate your efforts, and willingness to take on the risks involved. Keep up the good work!
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  #228  
Old 05-22-2012, 6:21 PM
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do you no the price of the jig ? thanks
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Old 05-22-2012, 7:42 PM
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do you no the price of the jig ? thanks
did you read the first post?
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Old 05-22-2012, 7:47 PM
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A prototype is just that. State as much, and a small burr or machining mark here or there is forgiven. But pictures of actual metal (and poly) parts mean a lot more than CAD renderings.
+1

I can assist with CAD as/if needed but in reality looking forward for some pics of the actual product.
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  #231  
Old 05-22-2012, 7:49 PM
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I fell under the machinist who didn't care for much except blueprints and tolerances category. If you give me a part to make I'll make it how ever your file tells me even if I know after it's coated it wont fit. The customer is always right after all. I would make a comment about it but usually only larger companies spend the money to do it right. Everyone else chooses to cut corners for cost and say take the part to anodize somewhere on their own and don't know what level anodizing they're doing our how much of a coat is going on. They only know they're saving $15 a dip do that's not my problem until they want the part remade. Anyways to stay on topic I'm sure they know of this and it's part of their final tolerance inspection which is why I'm not bothered with the wait time. The poly grip on the other hand is simple enough to show a real picture and in this case very important because I don't want a half Glock half 1911 Bastard child. And I'm curious if there will be a flared Magwell and how an aggressive of a checkering
not to go off topic again but that makes no sense to me.

You're basically saying that if I want my part to work after anodize I must give you a print that shows the pre-anodize dimensions? that makes no sense. my print shows final dimensions and tolerances, the same print your oqc and my iqc will use to accept or reject the part.
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  #232  
Old 05-23-2012, 5:58 AM
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Pm sent, can send payment with PayPal discreet gift.
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Old 05-23-2012, 6:13 AM
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I was saying from personal experience I've encountered companies who needed +- .0005 tolerances but did not think about needing to coat three part after so when they did with a thick anodize the part was out of spec. I was implying that not everyone does the cad or g coding correctly like you by knowing the final dimensions needed. You as an engineer obviously knows to think of everything that has to happen to your part. As a machinist who just runs the prints given it's not my job to correct a prototype part that a designer that made a flaw on their part. It's like someone building a high end 2011 and after they finish fitting it decides to do a 2mm anodize and expect the slide to go back on like butter. All I meant was if you don't design parts and make them for a living it's very easy and not uncommon for the little things to slip your mind until you run into the issue. Anything with extremely tight tolerances needs to be planned for coating before the part is cut. in this case I was saying it could be a possibility that the jig was designed with maybe a 1mm coating and they could have maybe decided to go to a 3mm and the rail guides would be a tighter fit them they originally wanted. And that would make a big difference because without a mill you would use scratched on the jigs coating as indications of too deep a cut in either the depth or width. These jigs seemed to be designed to be newbie friendly. Not aerospace grade tolerances like you or I are use to working on
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  #234  
Old 05-23-2012, 6:55 AM
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Im developing a curiosity about this companies other 80% products. It appears everything for sale on the website is a tactical machining product including the pics. They also mention "stores" when I gather they are a single location start up.

Can someone tell me more about these guys and where they come from? I can respect the honesty of a marine, but from my perspective I don't see that they have developed a product at all yet. There is no About section on their site, maybe someone could give me a quick bio of the company, and what they have done.
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Old 05-23-2012, 7:37 AM
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Im developing a curiosity about this companies other 80% products. It appears everything for sale on the website is a tactical machining product including the pics. They also mention "stores" when I gather they are a single location start up.

Can someone tell me more about these guys and where they come from? I can respect the honesty of a marine, but from my perspective I don't see that they have developed a product at all yet. There is no About section on their site, maybe someone could give me a quick bio of the company, and what they have done.
i believe their "EFFIN-A" comps are of their own design and manufacture. they seem to get good reviews from what i've seen (cursory search).
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  #236  
Old 05-23-2012, 8:24 AM
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Hmm, so is the current price per frame $125? Looks like Ares has a pre buy price of $99.95 per frame. Am I missing something?

-MRA
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  #237  
Old 05-23-2012, 8:37 AM
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Yep you missed. Read again and you'll see it's $99 to reserve and $99 when they ship. So we'll be saving $75.
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  #238  
Old 05-23-2012, 8:50 AM
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Unless it's not in the first post I saw that $99 in the section that was quoted from the website but above it in much bigger font the current price was $125 thus my confusion. At any rate do you have to buy a frame through this GB to get the jig for $99 because I don't see a real advantage here unless you are local to the place and save on shipping.

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  #239  
Old 05-23-2012, 8:53 AM
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Hmm, so is the current price per frame $125? Looks like Ares has a pre buy price of $99.95 per frame. Am I missing something?

-MRA
That REALLY needs to be fixed. 10 people have asked that same question and I'm sure many more were confused. Borderline bait and switch?
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  #240  
Old 05-23-2012, 8:57 AM
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That REALLY needs to be fixed. 10 people have asked that same question and I'm sure many more were confused. Borderline bait and switch?
I really don't think the intent is to deceive in any way, but their failure to fix it is a bit worrisome on a more general attention-to-detail level.
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