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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #241  
Old 01-23-2012, 7:47 AM
Kalderis40 Kalderis40 is offline
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From everything that I have read about OLL, I have gathered that it IS legal as long as :
1) the lower is not on the "list", i.e. legal to own in CA.
2) barrel length at least 16".
3) CAN have the pistol grip (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
4) CAN have a collapsible stock (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
5) Semi Auto only.
6) Flash Hider OK (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags)

Is there anything that I am missing?

Thanks
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  #242  
Old 01-23-2012, 3:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalderis40 View Post
From everything that I have read about OLL, I have gathered that it IS legal as long as :
1) the lower is not on the "list", i.e. legal to own in CA.
2) barrel length at least 16".
3) CAN have the pistol grip (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
4) CAN have a collapsible stock (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
5) Semi Auto only.
6) Flash Hider OK (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags)

Is there anything that I am missing?

Thanks
That seems like a good summary to me. Doesn't seem like you're missing anything.
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  #243  
Old 01-23-2012, 4:15 PM
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Probably a stupid question, but since a fixed magazine (10 rounds) makes a OLL with evil features legal, does this mean when I travel with the OLL in the trunk it has to have an empty mag attached?
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  #244  
Old 01-23-2012, 4:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gl0ckc0ma View Post
Probably a stupid question, but since a fixed magazine (10 rounds) makes a OLL with evil features legal, does this mean when I travel with the OLL in the trunk it has to have an empty mag attached?
No, but some people do it just as another step. If you have one in the magwell it's pretty easy to illustrate that it isn't detachable without a tool.

I have a 10 round (not a 10/20 or 10/30) mag that travels in my rifle on the way to and from the range. I specifically don't have a 10/20 or 10/30 in there because it can complicate matters if I cop knows his stuff and wants to point out that a 20 round mag is illegal in a bullet button equipped rifle. The only real way to show that it is a 10 round blocked mag is to load it. You can push the follower down with a pen or something to illustrate there is a block in there, but then could it possibly hold 11??? I just put the 10 rounder that came with my M&P 15 to make things simpler but it's not required.
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  #245  
Old 01-23-2012, 5:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalderis40 View Post
From everything that I have read about OLL, I have gathered that it IS legal as long as :
1) the lower is not on the "list", i.e. legal to own in CA.
2) barrel length at least 16".
3) CAN have the pistol grip (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
4) CAN have a collapsible stock (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
5) Semi Auto only.
6) Flash Hider OK (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags)

Is there anything that I am missing?

Thanks
7) Over-all length of at least 30".
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  #246  
Old 01-23-2012, 6:04 PM
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Thanks m03 for adding that! That's an important one...

7) Over-all length of at least 30".

ETA: Over-all length measured with stock fully collapsed (if collapsible stock).

Last edited by Kalderis40; 01-23-2012 at 6:08 PM.. Reason: Clarification
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  #247  
Old 01-24-2012, 9:54 AM
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Better yet refer to the flow chart:

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Edit: Got the barrel length confused a bit haha. But the barrel needs to be 16" from bolt face to end of barrel or perminatly attached muzzle device. And OAL needs to be 30".
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  #248  
Old 01-24-2012, 9:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Panchira! View Post
Also it measured from stock fully collapsed to END of barrel. NOT the muzzle device unless its perminatly attached ie pinned and welded.
Incorrect. No specification for permanently attached muzzle device in the OAL calculation.
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  #249  
Old 01-24-2012, 10:20 AM
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Ah yes your right about the OAL. but the barrel has to be 16" from bolt face to end of barrel or perminatly attached muzzle device. 1st bubble on the flow chart.

Edited above post so no one gets confused.
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  #250  
Old 01-29-2012, 9:39 PM
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Guy's you saved my day. I was reading all weekend CA gun laws to verify my purchase of a new Colt M4 CA Model and at the end I was more confused than before. Everything cleared up once I've read you flowchart and additional external infos under http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/in...main_page=ar15

By the way, the dealer mentioned I've to show utility bills to proof of residency.
But I've read the FAQ on the doj website, stating it's necessary for buying a handgun and not for a rifle. Is the dealer just wrong ? I'm asking, because I'm living nearly 3 month here (few days to go) moved recently from good old Germany and joining firearm sports business.
I also want to take a security training in SOCAL area, can one of you guys recommend me a facility/business near Torrance ?

Alright, take care and keep up your good work.
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  #251  
Old 01-29-2012, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bjoernt View Post

By the way, the dealer mentioned I've to show utility bills to proof of residency.
But I've read the FAQ on the doj website, stating it's necessary for buying a handgun and not for a rifle. Is the dealer just wrong ? I'm asking, because I'm living nearly 3 month here (few days to go) moved recently from good old Germany and joining firearm sports business.
moved from Germany as an alien, not as a returning US citizen? if so, then yes, you do need to provide residency documentation to comply with federal law.

read this for more info, http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2008-11.pdf

Quote:
Step Four: Review the State residency documents.
Both the immigrant alien and the non-immigrant alien who purchases a firearm under an exception must be a resident of the State in which he/she makes his/her purchase. He/she must have documented evidence that he/she has resided in a State for 90 continuous days immediately prior to the date of the sale.

TIP: Ask to see the purchaser’s common documents that will verify 90 continuous days of State residency (i.e. utility bills, tenant’s lease, bank statements, etc.), and note the documentation used on ATF Form 4473 or attach copies of such documents to the ATF Form 4473.
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  #252  
Old 02-06-2012, 2:35 AM
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If you quote the spammer I have to delete you post as well.
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  #253  
Old 02-09-2012, 5:02 PM
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Question AR-15 Question

Can anybody anwser this question for me I just moved to California from WA. My AR-15 is California compliant: bullet buton, an OLL receiver, and 10 round mag. Is this considered a rifle or assult weapon??? If so where do I register it at?
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  #254  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltywebos View Post
Can anybody anwser this question for me I just moved to California from WA. My AR-15 is California compliant: bullet buton, an OLL receiver, and 10 round mag. Is this considered a rifle or assult weapon??? If so where do I register it at?
Can't really register anymore. However, some exceptions to importation and possession DO exist.

BUT - what you described appears to be legal, assuming everything you say is correct and accurate.
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  #255  
Old 02-10-2012, 12:17 PM
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Thanks!
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  #256  
Old 02-10-2012, 12:18 PM
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As far as possesion what would you recommend ?
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  #257  
Old 02-12-2012, 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Nessal View Post
+1 on all mentioned topics. I think some people FAIL to realize how uneducated most LEO's are about OLLs. It's probably the gun show crowd that bought an AR-15 from a gun show WITHOUT doing anymore research about OLLs. Big mistake. And one more thing. If a cop pulled you over and SOME HOW found out that you had an OLL, given that he is ignorant, no amount of talking will do you any good. Just shut up and plead the fifth.
One thing I can say living in Sothern Cali. no matter what paperwork you're carrying around in your car don't help much. How many LEO is going to let you give them a lecture? I say none of them. Detachable mags??? When your weapon is in the trunk, and you get stopped for dumb driving and sees a visible mag or ammo bag he's going to ask you to open your trunk. If he sees your weapon without a 10 round mag attached you're going bye bye. At a private range things might be different.
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  #258  
Old 02-12-2012, 6:30 PM
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Guys, I just spent the last two hours reading this entire thread and I am compelled to share this with you.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO TALK TO LEO AT ALL !!!
It doesn't matter if you are going shooting or going to dinner.

It has been brushed on in this thread but was not clearly spelled out. So here it is.

When you are stopped you are under no obligation to speak. However as depicted in this thread if you decline to speak you are basically making your self look guilty or hiding something. Sadly it's just that we believe in civil rights.

With that said the best choice is when the officer comes to your window you should have you license, registration and proof of insurance ready. Roll down your window enough to pas them to the officer " usually about 1/2 of a inch. Allow the officer to do his job, site you if there is a traffic infraction. Crack your window again to sign the ticket and go on your way....
If you do this all will be happy and satisfied. You will not need to decline to answer anything and you will not need to sit there debating if you should lie to get on your way or to tell the truth knowing you will be stuck for a hour giving a education to LEO at a minim.

Hope this helps.

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  #259  
Old 03-06-2012, 6:13 PM
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Hmm that's probably the best behavior only to answer the questions you got from the LEO. But few days ago I saw one season of, Alaska highway patrol, can't remember the exact name and there was a guy pulled out of his car because he had a weapon under the seat and didn't told the officer. I'm not talking about the gun under the seat, that's probably a misdemeanor against the law, I'm more concerned about that what the officer told him. The guy had the obligation to tell immediately that he has a gun in his car. Is that true or only a Alaska law, or a idea the LEO's came up with?

Bjoern
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  #260  
Old 03-12-2012, 3:52 PM
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I purchased a Colt LE6920CMP-B. The Colt site lists it as CA-compliantColt California Compliant Rifles, and I bought it at a CA LGS. If an LEO were to question the legality of my rifle, how should I respond? The flowchart lists the "Colt: Law Enforcement (6920)" as illegal. Every person I have asked has told me my rifle is legal in California, only I am not exactly sure how. I assume I would identify it as a "M4 Carbine" as that's what the rollmark says, but assumptions can put me in jail.

Last edited by lilro; 03-12-2012 at 4:08 PM..
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  #261  
Old 03-12-2012, 4:20 PM
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Originally Posted by lilro View Post
I purchased a Colt LE6920CMP-B. The Colt site lists it as CA-compliantColt California Compliant Rifles, and I bought it at a CA LGS. If an LEO were to question the legality of my rifle, how should I respond? The flowchart lists the "Colt: Law Enforcement (6920)" as illegal. Every person I have asked has told me my rifle is legal in California, only I am not exactly sure how. I assume I would identify it as a "M4 Carbine" as that's what the rollmark says, but assumptions can put me in jail.
As much as Calguns is a better source for gun information than the CA DOJ, when dealing with LEOs I like to have the docs have the AG logo on them:

Go to the source of the banned list.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf

I'd print out a copy and keep it in your case. If you end up in a discussion about what is legal, respectfully hand them a copy of the banned list. Tell them they can keep the copy for their troubles.

Kindness and respect prevails in these encounters.
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  #262  
Old 03-12-2012, 4:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodemonkey View Post
As much as Calguns is a better source for gun information than the CA DOJ, when dealing with LEOs I like to have the docs have the AG logo on them:

Go to the source of the banned list.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf

I'd print out a copy and keep it in your case. If you end up in a discussion about what is legal, respectfully hand them a copy of the banned list. Tell them they can keep the copy for their troubles.

Kindness and respect prevails in these encounters.
Thanks. Will do. I'm still slightly confused though. This one lists the "Colt Law Enforcement (6920)" as well. The rifle I own is the Colt LE6920CMP-B. Rollmark says "M4 CARBINE". So if questioned, how would I identify it? M4 Carbine or LE6920CMP-B? Or something else?
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  #263  
Old 03-12-2012, 5:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilro View Post
Thanks. Will do. I'm still slightly confused though. This one lists the "Colt Law Enforcement (6920)" as well. The rifle I own is the Colt LE6920CMP-B. Rollmark says "M4 CARBINE". So if questioned, how would I identify it? M4 Carbine or LE6920CMP-B? Or something else?
It is the roll mark that is important. I would not offer the actual Model number especially since it has a lot of the same numbers in it and could only confuse them.

If you are truly paranoid, you could print out a copy of the ad from Colt showcasing their new CA compliant rifles that displays your roll mark (assuming that exists).
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  #264  
Old 03-26-2012, 5:18 PM
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Guessing this would not be legal in CA?

Juggernaut Bullpup Conversion Chassis for M14/M1

http://jtactical.com/product.php?id=9
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  #265  
Old 03-29-2012, 1:03 AM
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Originally Posted by lilro View Post
Thanks. Will do. I'm still slightly confused though. This one lists the "Colt Law Enforcement (6920)" as well. The rifle I own is the Colt LE6920CMP-B. Rollmark says "M4 CARBINE". So if questioned, how would I identify it? M4 Carbine or LE6920CMP-B? Or something else?
If its on the ban list. I would take it apart in many many pieces. Then I would go to the 2a forum here and ask the same question.

Colt could have a misprint and everyone could have bought a illegal rifle. End of the day... You still get busted and you still loose your rights. If its on the ban list. strip it down so it is a non working firearm. Yes you can still get busted for a banned lower. But its not a complete and usable working firearm then adding to a misprint and you might not get to deep into trouble.

But go ask in the 2a forum. This thread is to grenral for your needs.
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  #266  
Old 04-03-2012, 11:54 PM
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Spent the last 2 days reading this thread since ive been contemplating getting an AR style rifle...but some of the traffic stop horror stories and all the paperwork and possible court or detainment time and bills makes me wonder if its really worth having....

Or maybe it makes me want to get 1 or 3 just to stick it to the man.
a mini-14 might be a safer bet
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  #267  
Old 04-10-2012, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Strykeback View Post
Spent the last 2 days reading this thread since ive been contemplating getting an AR style rifle...but some of the traffic stop horror stories and all the paperwork and possible court or detainment time and bills makes me wonder if its really worth having....

Or maybe it makes me want to get 1 or 3 just to stick it to the man.
a mini-14 might be a safer bet
1) understand the laws, and why your pistol/rifle/shotgun/etc. is legal.

2) avoid interactions with LE

3) do not talk to LE, do not consent to search.

4) understand that we ARE winning, but that there is still much work to be done.

Please review this article, written by my friend: http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/new...bear-arms.html

There are hundreds of thousands of Californians who own 100 percent legal OLLs, and have never once had a problem of any kind. From time to time, untrained law enforcement officers make the mistake of arresting one of them. In every case that I am aware of, charges were later dropped. In fact, we are now fighting back, and there are court cases where our coalition is asking for damages for these false arrests.

Our coalition has a track record of WINNING LAWSUITS AGAINST people who do not support our civil rights. The issue is whether you want to be a part of this mass movement to stand up for our human rights, and legal rights.

In fact, our coalition is attacking the very law that has put so many law abiding gun owners in jail, over things as stupid as $2 pistol grips, and extra letters on roll marks. See: http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/new...apons-law.html

I realize that there is risk inherent in owning a LEGAL GUN, in this state, but it is only by fighting for our civil rights that we REMOVE THIS RISK. We must never stop, we must never move away, and we must never give up.

In the last six years, I have seen a miracle happen. We have about 500,000 new EBR's in the state, we have LTC's issued on a shall issue basis in certain large counties, we are now the number 2 state for new gun sales, and we have shooting ranges and gun shops opening left and right. Even our media is finally coming around to the fact that our right of self defense underlies all other rights.

The way that we continue to win is by overwhelming force of numbers. Each new gun owner becomes essentially an evangelist, and the good news is spreading fast. I urge you to join us.
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Old 04-10-2012, 5:29 PM
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Oh Im joining you!

Waiting for either the CZ sp tactical or walther ppq to get instock so I can SSE them in. And then a rock river arms elite operator might be nice but I have a wedding and a baby on the way so the first thing necessary to help you guys win this war is to get my fiancee as addicted to shooting as I am

Looking forward to running into fellow calgunners at the local central coast ranges.
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  #269  
Old 04-10-2012, 8:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
1) understand the laws, and why your pistol/rifle/shotgun/etc. is legal.

2) avoid interactions with LE

3) do not talk to LE, do not consent to search.

4) understand that we ARE winning, but that there is still much work to be done.

Please review this article, written by my friend: http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/new...bear-arms.html

There are hundreds of thousands of Californians who own 100 percent legal OLLs, and have never once had a problem of any kind. From time to time, untrained law enforcement officers make the mistake of arresting one of them. In every case that I am aware of, charges were later dropped. In fact, we are now fighting back, and there are court cases where our coalition is asking for damages for these false arrests.

Our coalition has a track record of WINNING LAWSUITS AGAINST people who do not support our civil rights. The issue is whether you want to be a part of this mass movement to stand up for our human rights, and legal rights.

In fact, our coalition is attacking the very law that has put so many law abiding gun owners in jail, over things as stupid as $2 pistol grips, and extra letters on roll marks. See: http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/new...apons-law.html

I realize that there is risk inherent in owning a LEGAL GUN, in this state, but it is only by fighting for our civil rights that we REMOVE THIS RISK. We must never stop, we must never move away, and we must never give up.

In the last six years, I have seen a miracle happen. We have about 500,000 new EBR's in the state, we have LTC's issued on a shall issue basis in certain large counties, we are now the number 2 state for new gun sales, and we have shooting ranges and gun shops opening left and right. Even our media is finally coming around to the fact that our right of self defense underlies all other rights.

The way that we continue to win is by overwhelming force of numbers. Each new gun owner becomes essentially an evangelist, and the good news is spreading fast. I urge you to join us.
You just motivated me to make a donation. Thanks! Your optimism is rubbing off on me.
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  #270  
Old 04-10-2012, 11:14 PM
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You just motivated me to make a donation. Thanks! Your optimism is rubbing off on me.
LOL, yes - the reason I am generally optimistic is because I talk to a lot of people. It's amazing how the feelings around guns and our rights have changed, for the better, just in these last two years.



There really IS an amazing and motivated group of folks working here in CA on the gun issue, and like many of us say, we ARE winning! Sometimes, it's a tough fight - but we are one of the last true rights movements. In fact, people are now finally remembering the our basic and essential self-defense rights protect ALL of our rights.
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  #271  
Old 04-12-2012, 6:36 PM
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Default things to consider on the way to the range

I've heard many people advocate placing an empty mag in your rifle while transporting it.

The justification for doing so is that for the LEO who may search you, this will clearly prove to them that a tool is necessary to remove it.

I won't take a position on this other than to say if you do so, it SHALL be a 10 round mag. As in, a 10 round mag. Not a 10/20, 10/30, etc.

This should be obvious, but any sort of blocked mag will appear to be a hi-cap, further interesting/infuriating the searching officer.

I understand that it is not unlawful to possess an UNLOADED rifle in your vehicle (given appropriate security of ammunition.) This does not mean that it is advisable.

I can only say that a good locking case (my preference is the pelican rifle case) is not that expensive when compared to a successful criminal defense case. Likewise, a good locking case with ammo / magazines, when combined with the rifle case (i.e., TWO LOCKED CASES IN YOUR CAR, ONE WITH AMMO, ONE WITH FIREARM), is also less expensive than fighting a criminal case successfully.

This procedure has the tangential benefit of reducing the chance of someone falsely claiming you consented to a search.

Be legal. Be safe. Be responsible.

Anything less than those three rules makes you a criminal, and not worthy of the great rights and responsibilities that come with american citizenship.

ACLU hero

PS: sacrificing your rights for a sense of greater security also makes you unworthy of your citizenship, IMHO.
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  #272  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:20 PM
oaklander oaklander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACLU hero View Post
I've heard many people advocate placing an empty mag in your rifle while transporting it.

The justification for doing so is that for the LEO who may search you, this will clearly prove to them that a tool is necessary to remove it.

I won't take a position on this other than to say if you do so, it SHALL be a 10 round mag. As in, a 10 round mag. Not a 10/20, 10/30, etc.

This should be obvious, but any sort of blocked mag will appear to be a hi-cap, further interesting/infuriating the searching officer.

I understand that it is not unlawful to possess an UNLOADED rifle in your vehicle (given appropriate security of ammunition.) This does not mean that it is advisable.

I can only say that a good locking case (my preference is the pelican rifle case) is not that expensive when compared to a successful criminal defense case. Likewise, a good locking case with ammo / magazines, when combined with the rifle case (i.e., TWO LOCKED CASES IN YOUR CAR, ONE WITH AMMO, ONE WITH FIREARM), is also less expensive than fighting a criminal case successfully.

This procedure has the tangential benefit of reducing the chance of someone falsely claiming you consented to a search.

Be legal. Be safe. Be responsible.

Anything less than those three rules makes you a criminal, and not worthy of the great rights and responsibilities that come with american citizenship.

ACLU hero

PS: sacrificing your rights for a sense of greater security also makes you unworthy of your citizenship, IMHO.
Well said, and transporting with an UNLOADED ten round mag also prevents "someone" from "accidentally" inserting a loaded and/or higher capacity magazine.

Shoot me an email at kevin@oaklander.org some time. I am thinking we should condense this thread and offer a PDF as a resource to our law abiding community here. This can be distributed to the various orgs.


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  #273  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:01 AM
Jestor Jestor is offline
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thanks very useful info here. just picked up my first rifle.
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  #274  
Old 04-20-2012, 6:37 PM
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I may have missed it; if so, I apologize.

Copied from the flowchart:
12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding PC section 12276, assault weapon shall also
mean the following: Rifles
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a
detachable magazine CCR 11 5469 (a) and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip CCR 11 5469 (d)
(B) A thumbhole stock. CCR 11 5469 (e)
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor. CCR 11 5469 (b)
(F) A forward pistol grip. CCR 11 5469 (c)
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the
capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less
than 30 inches.

Based on that, why can't I buy an unmutilated Yugo SKS? Yes, it has a grenade launcher sight, but in its original configuration the magazine is fixed--it can only be reloaded singly or by stripper clip!
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  #275  
Old 04-20-2012, 8:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midtown Gunner View Post

Based on that, why can't I buy an unmutilated Yugo SKS? Yes, it has a grenade launcher sight, but in its original configuration the magazine is fixed--it can only be reloaded singly or by stripper clip!
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava
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  #276  
Old 04-21-2012, 5:11 PM
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Ah. Named, but later.

Thanks.
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  #277  
Old 04-22-2012, 7:34 AM
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Not named, just by features. If you remove the grenade launcher, it's legal.
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  #278  
Old 04-22-2012, 7:34 AM
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Not named, just by features. If you remove the grenade launcher, it's legal.
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Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm - or never be capable of harming - you or yours again.

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  #279  
Old 05-14-2012, 9:15 AM
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So here I am, a life-long CA resident that bought a Poly Teck AKS-762 (16" barrel & non-colapseable whood stock) back in the late 80s and registered it in the Roberti-Roos sweep. Shortly thereafter, I lost interest in guns until recently. My interest is perking up again and I'm dusting off my old buddy - been to Burro's twice with it and no one has even looked at my AKS sideways. Now I learn, that there was some second piece of legislation, SB-23 in 2000 (because some politidiots needed a feather in their cap for re-election) that I missed. Am I screwed or ok?
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Old 05-14-2012, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKS-762 View Post
So here I am, a life-long CA resident that bought a Poly Teck AKS-762 (16" barrel & non-colapseable whood stock) back in the late 80s and registered it in the Roberti-Roos sweep. Shortly thereafter, I lost interest in guns until recently. My interest is perking up again and I'm dusting off my old buddy - been to Burro's twice with it and no one has even looked at my AKS sideways. Now I learn, that there was some second piece of legislation, SB-23 in 2000 (because some politidiots needed a feather in their cap for re-election) that I missed. Am I screwed or ok?
If you registered it under RR then you are ok. You did not need to register it a second time.
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