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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 57 7.99%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 474 66.48%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 17 2.38%
I paid too much for my Membership! 34 4.77%
They will go out of business this year! 18 2.52%
Don't want anything to do with them! 113 15.85%
Voters: 713. You may not vote on this poll

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  #161  
Old 04-07-2012, 6:39 PM
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Checking in...from Frontsight and the Best Western Pahrump Station. Just finished the 2-day Advanced Tactical.
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  #162  
Old 04-07-2012, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bm55 View Post
Do you think it'd be possible to request to be in his class next time? He is one of the most impressive people I've ever met.
Don't worry about getting a specific instructor. 99% of them are awesome. If you're lucky enough to get Squirrel you'll have even more fun and go through at least twice the amount of ammo they recommend bringing.
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  #163  
Old 04-08-2012, 6:18 PM
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Just took the four day handgun with John Reynolds, Day Parks, and Jerod ?. They did a great job. Lot of fun and a lot of education.
Has anyone found any bad instructors at Frontsight? Does Frontsight have instructors we should ask not to have?
Only been there twice, and both times had a real positive experience.
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  #164  
Old 04-08-2012, 7:34 PM
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Yeah, Enzo357....Don't ask for me anymore.....lmao
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  #165  
Old 04-08-2012, 7:46 PM
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Looking foreward to Mossberg and the Swede getting back from Master Prep handgun class. Both are great instructors, better friends. Can't wait to see what they have to show me.
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  #166  
Old 04-08-2012, 7:46 PM
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Looking foreward to Mossberg and the Swede getting back from Master Prep handgun class. Both are great instructors, better friends. Can't wait to see what they have to show me.
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  #167  
Old 04-08-2012, 8:17 PM
F-2_Challenger F-2_Challenger is offline
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Originally Posted by MossbergMan View Post
Yeah, Enzo357....Don't ask for me anymore.....lmao
If you are ever fortunate enough to have Larry as your coach your in for one hell of a time. This guy straight up rocks it. Listen to him, and he will get you going smooth, fast, and accurate.
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  #168  
Old 04-09-2012, 9:37 AM
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Has anyone found any bad instructors at Frontsight? Does Frontsight have instructors we should ask not to have?
Only been there twice, and both times had a real positive experience.
Of the 3 times I've gone, I've only had one bad instructor who seemed much less friendly and much more "drill instructor". I received very little instruction from him and his assistants for that course (2 day skill builder) but fortunately one of the roving instructors taught me more in the 5-10 minutes at a time she spent with me than my rangemaster did in the whole 2 days. Can't remember the name, and it won't stop me from going back. But they are there, they just seem to be the minority.
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  #169  
Old 04-09-2012, 9:49 AM
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Ill be out there 4/20-24th
2 day DH
1 day T Shotgun
1 day CCW

hit me up if you'll be there
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  #170  
Old 04-09-2012, 10:43 PM
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Anyone going out there April 16-19? Hit me up. I'm doing the 4DDH and staying at the Saddle West.
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  #171  
Old 04-10-2012, 2:39 AM
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Gunmaker, stop by the master prep range and/or look for a first family hat with a black name tape "Renner" on the back. Not staying at Saddle West.
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  #172  
Old 04-10-2012, 8:29 AM
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Just wrapped up the 4DDH class (4/2 - 4/5). Cleaned up on the head to head challenge and got my DG cert. Total of two DG's and 10+ Grads out of 33. Met quite a few really good people out there per usual. We had Larry Mayers for RO with Jen and George backing him up. Thank god I'm outta the wind - phew!

Now on to the more tactical classes....
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  #173  
Old 04-10-2012, 8:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfinguru View Post
Just wrapped up the 4DDH class (4/2 - 4/5). Cleaned up on the head to head challenge and got my DG cert. Total of two DG's and 10+ Grads out of 33. Met quite a few really good people out there per usual. We had Larry Mayers for RO with Jen and George backing him up. Thank god I'm outta the wind - phew!

Now on to the more tactical classes....
Well done.
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  #174  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:18 AM
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Oh, and for those trying to obtain the DG moniker, REALLY focus on the malfunction and reloading drills. Especially the type 3's. If you can do those with your eyes closed, and quickly, you'll get there. (I had to go with a numbered step system, K.I.S.S as they say.)

1 = Look/move
2 = check
3 = lock
4 = strip
5 = rack, rack, rack
6 = load
7 = rack
8 = point in
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- Wilson vs. State
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  #175  
Old 04-10-2012, 12:17 PM
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I am interested in their 4 day practical rifle. Any pointers would be appreciated.

Also anyone taken these classes in June?
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  #176  
Old 04-10-2012, 1:55 PM
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Membership Type: Diamond with Alaska
Membership Date: Dec 2011
Courses Taken: 4DDH, 4DPR
Next Course: 4DDH - TBD
Comments: I have a dozen or so memberships that are to be assigned. PMs about memberships welcomed.
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  #177  
Old 04-11-2012, 7:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gesundheit View Post
I am interested in their 4 day practical rifle. Any pointers would be appreciated.

Also anyone taken these classes in June?
I believe this may have been posted before but it is a guide to improving your chances for a DG on the 4-day rifle course.
http://emergencypreparedness.pbworks...833919/DGrifle

All those tips aside, I'd recommend taking an iron-sighted rifle for your first time. You'll really learn how to use and run iron sights which, IMHO, is an indispensable skill to have in-case your optic goes down and you have to go to BUIS. Since the rifle class is the hardest course to DG it will also give you a good foundation to come back with an optic and DG the course on your second try.

Other tips:
  • Take a backup rifle if you can (I saw a lot of AR's choke and go down during the class)
  • You only need two or three magazines as most drills are single-shot and then tac-reload, after-action drill, etc. and do the next drill. You don't shoot more than maybe 20 rounds total each time you're up on the line.
  • Take kneepads and some sort of foam or neoprene elbow pads. After the first time you flop down prone and land on empty brass or a piece of gravel with your knee or elbow you'll wish you had...
  • Thin "Mechanix" type gloves are nice especially if your rifle has any sharp edges.
  • Zero your rifle at 50yds before the class (confirm POI at 200 if you can before you leave, if not you'll do it as part of the class)
  • A sling is required, no need to out and buy a fancy single point sling a cotton USGI will work just fine
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  #178  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:18 PM
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Thank you, Sir.
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  #179  
Old 04-13-2012, 6:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfinguru View Post
Oh, and for those trying to obtain the DG moniker, REALLY focus on the malfunction and reloading drills. Especially the type 3's. If you can do those with your eyes closed, and quickly, you'll get there. (I had to go with a numbered step system, K.I.S.S as they say.)

1 = Look/move
2 = check
3 = lock
4 = strip
5 = rack, rack, rack
6 = load
7 = rack
8 = point in
Just got back from my second 4DDH... I had Chacci for my Range master, but I have had Larry (who is now quality control) the first time and he is like a jedi. Also Greg Urandetta is freaking awesome and is VERY very informative and professional. I love frontsight, I am a Diamond member now, and plan on taking the practical shotgun next year.

I missed my Distinguished Graduate by ONE POINT!!!! ARGHHHH! I had 11 points docked for my shooting and 3 for my malfunction drills. Either way I blame it on my type 3, I was late on one of them. I even dry practiced the night before (at the saddle west)

All in all its a great place...
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  #180  
Old 04-13-2012, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by VtotheZ View Post
I missed my Distinguished Graduate by ONE POINT!!!! ARGHHHH! I had 11 points docked for my shooting and 3 for my malfunction drills. Either way I blame it on my type 3, I was late on one of them. I even dry practiced the night before (at the saddle west)

All in all its a great place...
I thought DG is -15, and you only have -14?

Last edited by agent.5; 04-13-2012 at 6:59 PM..
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  #181  
Old 04-13-2012, 7:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VtotheZ View Post
Just got back from my second 4DDH... I had Chacci for my Range master, but I have had Larry (who is now quality control) the first time and he is like a jedi. Also Greg Urandetta is freaking awesome and is VERY very informative and professional. I love frontsight, I am a Diamond member now, and plan on taking the practical shotgun next year.

I missed my Distinguished Graduate by ONE POINT!!!! ARGHHHH! I had 11 points docked for my shooting and 3 for my malfunction drills. Either way I blame it on my type 3, I was late on one of them. I even dry practiced the night before (at the saddle west)

All in all its a great place...
Yeah, I feel your frustration there. I missed by one point my first time through as well and it pissed me off for two years. (I'm super competitive with myself.) Needless to say, I was VERY intent on passing this time. Shooting is such a mental thing and Larry made a really good point on Day3. He said "we all go through peaks and valley's so don't get caught up in the valley's. Be proud of the peaks and train so that the swings between the two aren't so big." Great advice for sure....
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- Wilson vs. State
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  #182  
Old 04-14-2012, 5:13 PM
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To get DG you must have 13 points or less. I finished with 14...

Yes we discussed peaks and valleys alot during our 4 days. In fact my uncle who can shoot very well, didnt even make graduate this year, and last year only missed by 2 points or so.. He was definitely in a valley to say the least.

BTW you can take a 2 day weekend or weekday skill builder and take the test again... I plan on doing that to get my DG. But until the rest of my group I normally go with gets DG we will be doing the Shotgun and Rifle classes =)
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  #183  
Old 04-14-2012, 5:27 PM
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I am sure you are going to DG next time. But, when one takes the advanced tactical, one needs to begin the class by DGing the test. Otherwise, one will be asked to retake the skills builder class again. I just returned from FS and graduated the skills builder class by screwing up a type 3 malfunction clearing and being slow on the emergency reloads. In my class of 38, there were 5 DG, about 20 Graduates, as next door to us was the advanced tactical class and those that were asked next door to retake skills builder took my class.

So, I am going to practice and make sure that I shall pass. Being close is not going to be enough.

Last edited by agent.5; 04-14-2012 at 5:34 PM..
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  #184  
Old 04-14-2012, 5:56 PM
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Not a member but I am a frequent student. Love Front Sight. Highly recommend it.
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  #185  
Old 04-15-2012, 2:28 PM
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Membership Type: Diamond
Membership Date: 2011
Courses Taken: None
Next Course: Nothing planned yet
Comments: I bought a Diamond for my son and me, but since he was expecting a baby and I had had surgery, last year was a wash. He began a new job a few weeks ago, so nothing planned yet.

I noticed in the videos on the first page, the shooters would touch their chests with their weak hand as they drew their guns. I have never seen anything like that before. My training (le) didn't involve that move. Would someone who has been there please provide their rationale for doing so if you know it.
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  #186  
Old 04-15-2012, 2:50 PM
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Quote:
I noticed in the videos on the first page, the shooters would touch their chests with their weak hand as they drew their guns. I have never seen anything like that before. My training (le) didn't involve that move. Would someone who has been there please provide their rationale for doing so if you know it.
While I havent been to FrontSight I am going to assume it is for same reason as in most of the other tactical/defensive pistol classes I have taken which is to insure your support hand doesnt cover or come up in front of the muzzle of the pistol during the draw stroke.

Also have in some classes during one handed drills placed the hand not in use on the chest for balance/stance purposes or wounded arm/hand drills.
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  #187  
Old 04-15-2012, 4:28 PM
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also a member of the 1 point short of DG (4DDH) club
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  #188  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atekhed View Post
While I havent been to FrontSight I am going to assume it is for same reason as in most of the other tactical/defensive pistol classes I have taken which is to insure your support hand doesnt cover or come up in front of the muzzle of the pistol during the draw stroke.
This I think, also it is indexed and ready to mate with your dominant hand consistently during the drawstroke.
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  #189  
Old 04-17-2012, 1:02 AM
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Membership Type: Patriot Group (Not sure if it counts, but I get decent offering of coupons)
Membership Date: 2011
Courses Taken: 4 Day Defensive Handgun
Next Course: 4 Day Defensive Shotgun (still planning)
Comments:

I was offered Diamond but turned down, since I am a college student, could be anywhere in a few years. Would be a complete waste if I ended up on East Coast or somewhere distant. 4 Day handgun class is very impressive, and planning to go back later for shotgun and rifle.
I finished with losing 15 points, all losses were from miss the targets.

Last edited by Lugiahua; 04-17-2012 at 1:04 AM..
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  #190  
Old 04-18-2012, 9:29 AM
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Originally Posted by agent.5 View Post
when one takes the advanced tactical, one needs to begin the class by DGing the test. Otherwise, one will be asked to retake the skills builder class again.
In the advanced classes I've done at FS (which is all of them), it hasn't been so strict. They're usually not looking for an exact score (like DG) but watching form, safety, focus, foundational stuff etc. They'll give you a little slack on speed (and thus some parts of the score) if your fundamentals are there.
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  #191  
Old 04-18-2012, 10:38 AM
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I just got back from taking some family for their first 4-day handgun class. My wife and I did a lot of dry practice leading up to the class and we were both able to get DG. She shot 6 points down (shanked two of the designated headshots into the teeth), I shot 3 points down and missed 0 down by 1 inch (shanked one headshot a little low).

The major keys to making the shots is lots of perfect dry practice and a lightning fast presentation. If you can get the gun out there fast it seems like you have all the time in the world to make the shots. When our rangemaster spent a few relays with me coaching me on the this, I was shocked by how fast the gun came out. I sat there for a good 2 seconds before I took the shot, utterly amazed by the seemingly instant effect of the gun in my hand.

My 3 points down from the low headshot came from seeing a perfect sight picture and alignment and thinking "Now!" in my brain and mashing the trigger.
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  #192  
Old 04-21-2012, 1:25 PM
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[QUOTE=retired;8409636I noticed in the videos on the first page, the shooters would touch their chests with their weak hand as they drew their guns. I have never seen anything like that before. My training (le) didn't involve that move. Would someone who has been there please provide their rationale for doing so if you know it.[/QUOTE]

Getting the support hand to the mid-section is a safety and defensive manuver. If the hand is against the body, it cannot get accidentially shot as it can if dangling in space out front. Secondly it's defensive. If my support hand (neither of my hands are weak) is already at my mid-section I can deflect or parry in coming hands or strikes. At that location my support hand is waiting for the gun to arrive, not the other way around. Many shooters present (read:draw) slowly because their firing side hand with the gun in it has to wait for the support side to catch up.

Nothing drives the later part home like the humbling experience of particating in the FS Handgun Combat Master Prep course. Seven tenths of a second is the presentation goal. React, grip and present to pointed in 7/10 of a second. If your support hand is NOT there waiting for a gun....you cannot make that goal, period.
The Swede and I took the 4 day FSCHM Prep class last week. OMGosh I have some work ahead of me. Zero down on the standard 4DDHG test, then 9 down on the Intermediate test, so far so good. Then came the Advanced Test and the wheels came off my "race car". With an average shot to the CO Cavity (read:face shot) at 7 yards required in, they say in 1.5 seconds but I timed it, your actual "face time" (full frontal aspect) is 1.25 seconds. I found the limiit of my equipment and ability quickly. The Swede made it look easy. Two other shooters were "in the hunt" with scores from 68 to 70+ points down. 40 is the maximum down and pass. but anyone under 100 is on the right track.
Now understand the Master test has nothing to do with combat, it is a qualification course that tests a number of skill sets that may or may not assist you in a gunfight and it is a ....Bitc....it's really, really hard.
It's 80 rounds total from "close contact" (two rounds-1sec.) to 50 yards (2 rounds 6 sec.) How about a Response Rear drill? React, turn, present and fire 1 shot in 1.4 seconds at 7 yards...hard to believe but very doable with a fast reaction and presentation. With turning targets there is no doubt if you were late or missed. as I so aply found out.
My score improved with each test, but I never got under 100....next time.
If you've DG'd the basic and taken Advanced Handgun Tactics you can try your hand at the Masters test. Only 13 men have passed the this test (FSHCM)...could you be #14? At any rate you'll see some amazing speed and accuracy performed before your very own eyes.
Just be advised, the last certified FSHCM stopped counting how many attempts he had made to pass after 80. It is tough, but it's has been done, which makes it a valid test of skill(s).
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  #193  
Old 04-21-2012, 1:34 PM
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Larry, who was the instruction team for your HCM course? Sounds like you had a good class.
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  #194  
Old 04-22-2012, 5:41 AM
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Bill Kelpares (sp?) and John Reynolds. Bill is the most recent FSHCM.
Class was great.Frustrating at first but it got better as I applied some of the techniques Bill suggested. I also observed some successful "tricks" of the test applied.
Because my holster was not at a good angle I rubbed a huge sore on my middle finger of my firing hand making even holding the gun difficult. Now that's fixed I look forward to Novembers class.
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  #195  
Old 04-22-2012, 5:47 AM
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I think his spelling is Bill Kapeles. Sounds like a worthwhile class. Sorry to hear about your finger . . . that is frustrating. Classes like that really flush things out. Thanks for the update.
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Old 04-22-2012, 9:44 PM
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I had Bill Kapeles as my instructor the last time I was there. He really stressed that an explosive presentation is key to effectiveness.

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Classes like that really flush things out.
yeah, no kidding. I had all sorts of issues with my holster and garment combo which slowed me down.

anyway, Bill is a cool guy. He lent my cousin his G22 when my cousin's G35 started acting up and he let my father in law shoot his Nighthawk 1911.
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Old 04-23-2012, 8:01 AM
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I also observed some successful "tricks" of the test applied.
I would be interested in hearing what these "tricks" are...
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Old 04-23-2012, 8:09 AM
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I had Bill Kapeles as my instructor the last time I was there. He really stressed that an explosive presentation is key to effectiveness. . . .
Your presentation should be the same speed whether you have to make the shot quickly or slowly. Anytime wasted during the presentation is time not on the sights. Obviously saving a tenth or two on the presentation can make a huge difference when you have to shoot quickly. It might double your time on the sights and allow a moment more for trigger control.
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Old 04-23-2012, 1:03 PM
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I had Bill Kapeles as my instructor the last time I was there. He really stressed that an explosive presentation is key to effectiveness.


yeah, no kidding. I had all sorts of issues with my holster and garment combo which slowed me down.
Indeed, first thing I did after my class was to order a Raven holster. My Sarfariland is too slow to present in timed tests.
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Old 04-23-2012, 8:07 PM
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KAPELES...That's the guy! Explosive, fast presentations are just that....fast, regardless of distance to target. Every time. At 50 yards a .7 to .8 second presentation gave me 5+ seconds to touch off the two required rounds.
Okay... one trick tip: Stand slightly to the left of your target. You can see a partial target and lock onto an aiming area early. Some of the guys used a defect or mark on the wood as a focus area.
Trick two....practice on 1/2 3x5 cards for hostage rescue shots and DON'T F'ing fire if you behind the "reaction curve". Turning targets actually move the hostage into your line of fire if you trigger your shot off a split second late. When I held my shot I actually improved my score by 5 points
Frustrating is knowing you'll only be 50 points down if you didn't fire a shot during hostage rescues and trying anyways.... only to lose 55 points
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