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View Poll Results: Would you prefer the KTo frames in steel, aluminum, or either one
Steel 85 45.70%
Aluminum 59 31.72%
Either one is fine 42 22.58%
Voters: 186. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 04-03-2012, 8:44 PM
nick nick is offline
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Default KTO 80% SIG P228 frames group buy is a go, if we get 100 frames commitment

I'm trying to gauge the interest in 80% SIG P228 frames. KTO used to make them up until 2004, I believe, and if enough interest is expressed, I'll contact him to see, if he'll be willing to make another run of them, and what the price would be. The parts are still out there (although I scooped up as much as I found ).

I'm going to try and make one in .40, as well, if I get another frame (I have one of the old ones). Here's what the old ones look like (these aren't mine, just the images off the Internet):





I've no idea what the price might be, but we'll see what the interest is like first. I paid $270 for mine, but this was a rare 80% frame long since out-of-production. I would imagine, we might get the price down to around $250.

So, if you're interested, post the number of frames you would like, if this works out.

Updated to reflect that:

1. This is a go - the KTO guy will do a run of these frames, if there's a commitment of at least 100 frames. The price will be $250 per ALUMINUM frame. The info on steel frames will be added, as it's received. See post #22 for more details.

2. Per KTO, you can build SIG P228, P229, or P226 on his frames. P228s are obvious, I've read about people building P229s on these (and am planning to do it myself, too). I've never heard of anyone building a P226 on these frames. Hopefully, people more familiar with SIGs will chime in on the differences between these.

3. The lead time will be in months, as KTO needs to get ATF's approval for the design. He already has a frame to submit to them though.

4. Feel free to cross-post this on other forums.

5. I will ask MadRiverArms, if he wants to run this group by, if we get enough commitments. He ran the KTO 1911 frames group buy very well.
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Last edited by nick; 04-06-2012 at 12:30 AM..
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  #2  
Old 04-03-2012, 9:34 PM
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I searched, but couldn't find any 80% p228 build threads out there.
What's involved to finish just the frame?
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  #3  
Old 04-03-2012, 9:36 PM
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Aluminum or Steel?
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  #4  
Old 04-03-2012, 9:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shocknm View Post
I searched, but couldn't find any 80% p228 build threads out there.
What's involved to finish just the frame?
That would depend on how finished the new frames would be. In the old ones, one needed to cut the rails, drill and ream 2 holes, and do the general fitting/finishing. The fitting is easier than with a 1911, since SIG parts are supposed to be drop-in (and they mostly are). I don't know what the new frames (provided there's enough interest) might entail.
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Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


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  #5  
Old 04-03-2012, 9:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrara View Post
Aluminum or Steel?
The old ones are steel (as are the original P228 frames). The CNCGuns guy made an aluminum one, and it worked fine. We'll see what the KTO guy has to say, and how much interest this will generate.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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  #6  
Old 04-03-2012, 9:47 PM
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interested, will do more research, but might be interested in 1.
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  #7  
Old 04-03-2012, 9:57 PM
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Is that the one from the guy on FALfiles?
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:12 PM
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anyone have a ball park $$$ for a completed project?
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  #9  
Old 04-03-2012, 10:54 PM
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I'd be in for one.
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  #10  
Old 04-03-2012, 11:06 PM
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I'd be in for one as well.
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  #11  
Old 04-04-2012, 4:00 AM
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yeah, whats the ball park price of the rest of the parts?
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Old 04-04-2012, 7:07 AM
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I would be interested depending on the cost and availability of the remaining parts to finish it.
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Old 04-04-2012, 7:46 AM
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Same here, me and a few others are interested, but it would depend on cost and availability of parts to finish. Are p229 parts compatible with the p228?
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Old 04-04-2012, 7:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
Is that the one from the guy on FALfiles?
If you're talking about the pictures, possibly. I got them off Google images

And yeah, I saw a guy selling the frame and a Dlask kit on FALfiles for $350 last November... Quite a shame I didn't see it, he had it for sale for a while.
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"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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  #15  
Old 04-04-2012, 8:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jingerale View Post
anyone have a ball park $$$ for a completed project?
The ballpark would depend on your luck. For example, I bought one bag of small parts on Gunbroker for $200, and another bag with the same parts for $31. Unlike 1911s, you'll have to look for the parts. So take whatever numbers I give with a grain of salt. My estimate would be like this:

Frame - $250
Slide assembly - $250
Frame small parts - $70-100-150

You can get a used P228 for about the same price.
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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  #16  
Old 04-04-2012, 8:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 762shooter View Post
Same here, me and a few others are interested, but it would depend on cost and availability of parts to finish. Are p229 parts compatible with the p228?
Some are, some aren't. Since you're building the frame, you have a bit more flexibility as to what will fit.

Personally, I'm planning to make one in .40 (if the frame holds that recoil), which involves P229 slide assembly, at the very least.

From what I've read, the main difference between P228 and P229 is in the slide assembly. P228 has a stamped slide, and while early P229s had a stamped slide, they moved to milled slides (to make way for higher pressure/recoil of .40). I haven't received my P229 slide, so I can't compare them side-by-side yet. I'll post the comparison when I do receive it.

The magwell is another thing. P229 mags are a bit wider, so while P228 mags would work in P229 (they'll just rattle a bit), P229 mags will not work in P228, unless you open up the magwell a bit. I've confirmed it with my KTO frame - P228 mags would fit too tight (had to file it a bit), and P229 9mm mags wouldn't fit at all. I'm planning to file some more to make them fit.

The frame parts should be the same.

As for the availability of parts, they're out there, from the likes of NUmrich and Top Gun Supply, and there's, of course, Gunbroker and Ebay (yep, people can sell most gun parts on Ebay now. I got both of my slides and barrels off Ebay). You'll have to be patient though, this isn't a project where you can get the frame from one established source, parts kit from another established source, and put it all together.
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.

Last edited by nick; 04-04-2012 at 8:43 AM..
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  #17  
Old 04-04-2012, 9:57 AM
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If the price is reasonable, and it will fit the Sig factory 22 conversion kit, I'd be in for one.
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  #18  
Old 04-04-2012, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick View Post
... The magwell is another thing. P229 mags are a bit wider, so while P228 mags would work in P229 (they'll just rattle a bit), P229 mags will not work in P228, unless you open up the magwell a bit. I've confirmed it with my KTO frame - P228 mags would fit too tight (had to file it a bit), and P229 9mm mags wouldn't fit at all...
P226 mags fit the p228/229 (as seen on the web), but stick out

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Old 04-04-2012, 6:41 PM
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nick, as per our PMs i would be in on this for one or two and will pursue the idea w/ KTO if you haven't already.
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Old 04-04-2012, 7:30 PM
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I would be interested, probably would want to do 2.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:25 AM
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What about asking KTO to do a p229 80%? I see a lot of those sig x-change kits that should make finding an upper assembly very easy.

Last edited by 762shooter; 04-05-2012 at 11:28 AM..
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:23 PM
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Emailed KTO to ask about the possibility of P228 and/or P229 80% frames. I'll let you all know when I hear back.

ETA: Here's the word from Rick at KTO:
The good news:
He says he's up for doing a run of 80% Sig frames
He says the frames he makes can be used to make a P226, 228, or 229 (we'll see how nick does with his I guess, assuming it is the same kind of KTO 80%)
He would have to submit a frame for BATFE for approval before entering production, but he has one on hand that he could use for this (interestingly, it is one of two frames that THEY returned to HIM already, after his last court case, so they presumably would have no problem getting approval)
The not-so-good news:
He does not have any of the fixtures or programs to make them any more, so he would have to build/code from scratch
Because of this, he would need a minimum order of 100 parts @ $250/ea in order to make it worth doing, This would be the cost for aluminum 80% frames. Steel would cost more, although I don't know how much.

So the ball is in our court. If there is enough interest at that price point, we can make it happen. If we want to go down that road, the sooner we can let him know, so that he can submit the sample to BATF, the better.
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Last edited by goober; 04-05-2012 at 4:57 PM..
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Old 04-05-2012, 4:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 762shooter View Post
What about asking KTO to do a p229 80%? I see a lot of those sig x-change kits that should make finding an upper assembly very easy.
Do they only work the 229?
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Old 04-05-2012, 5:11 PM
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In for 1 maybe 2
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Old 04-05-2012, 5:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WARDOG View Post
Is KTO cool with payment in dollars?
He generally prefers silver or gold...or at least he used to.
nah, he realized that if he's going to stay in business in the U.S. he better accept FRNs. in fact he never really stopped doing so, despite what you might think by looking at his website (which is dismally out of date).
i've been a customer from way back when you used to pay by putting $$ on his WalMart card
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Old 04-05-2012, 6:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
Emailed KTO to ask about the possibility of P228 and/or P229 80% frames. I'll let you all know when I hear back.

ETA: Here's the word from Rick at KTO:
The good news:
He says he's up for doing a run of 80% Sig frames
He says the frames he makes can be used to make a P226, 228, or 229 (we'll see how nick does with his I guess, assuming it is the same kind of KTO 80%)
He would have to submit a frame for BATFE for approval before entering production, but he has one on hand that he could use for this (interestingly, it is one of two frames that THEY returned to HIM already, after his last court case, so they presumably would have no problem getting approval)
The not-so-good news:
He does not have any of the fixtures or programs to make them any more, so he would have to build/code from scratch
Because of this, he would need a minimum order of 100 parts @ $250/ea in order to make it worth doing, This would be the cost for aluminum 80% frames. Steel would cost more, although I don't know how much.

So the ball is in our court. If there is enough interest at that price point, we can make it happen. If we want to go down that road, the sooner we can let him know, so that he can submit the sample to BATF, the better.
With this update, I would be in for 2 and possibly have a couple friends that would take one each. My total would be 4.
How much easier would these be to complete vs. the 1911 frames?
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Old 04-05-2012, 6:47 PM
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2 more here.
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Old 04-05-2012, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainShooter View Post
With this update, I would be in for 2 and possibly have a couple friends that would take one each. My total would be 4.
How much easier would these be to complete vs. the 1911 frames?
They're as easy/easier t complete. Finding parts is harder though, at least, for P228. However, for P229 you can use the P229 caliber conversion kits in 9mm, .40, and .22lr for the upper parts, and the other parts are out there, you just need to either keep an eye out for good deals, or buy them separately (whcih can run expensive though).

I bought my parts off Ebay and Gunbroker, with the few leftover parts - from Numrich and Topgunsupply.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
Emailed KTO to ask about the possibility of P228 and/or P229 80% frames. I'll let you all know when I hear back.

ETA: Here's the word from Rick at KTO:
The good news:
He says he's up for doing a run of 80% Sig frames
He says the frames he makes can be used to make a P226, 228, or 229 (we'll see how nick does with his I guess, assuming it is the same kind of KTO 80%)
He would have to submit a frame for BATFE for approval before entering production, but he has one on hand that he could use for this (interestingly, it is one of two frames that THEY returned to HIM already, after his last court case, so they presumably would have no problem getting approval)
The not-so-good news:
He does not have any of the fixtures or programs to make them any more, so he would have to build/code from scratch
Because of this, he would need a minimum order of 100 parts @ $250/ea in order to make it worth doing, This would be the cost for aluminum 80% frames. Steel would cost more, although I don't know how much.

So the ball is in our court. If there is enough interest at that price point, we can make it happen. If we want to go down that road, the sooner we can let him know, so that he can submit the sample to BATF, the better.
Thank you for doing that, Pat!

I'm making a P228 out of the current frame, but I lined up another frame. We'll see, if I can make a P229 out of that one. I have the slide, a .40 barrel, and most of the small parts. I'll let you guys know how that works out, but that'll be in a couple of months or so.
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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Old 04-06-2012, 7:11 AM
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Count me in for at least 4 frames.
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Old 04-06-2012, 2:57 PM
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I'm very interested. Can we also use this thread the to discuss possible resources to complete the frame?
Its hard enough to find a source to complete an ar 80% in NorCal. Any calgunner offering their expertise?
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Old 04-06-2012, 3:07 PM
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Rick will be sending a sample to ATF on Monday for approval as a non-firearm. He says he expects anywhere from 30-90 days to get approval, but is optimistic that it will be on the low end, based on his recent experience.
Steel would be $300/each and he's not really open to mix/match for this first run. So we need to go either all aluminum or steel.

He estimates about 2 months from the time he is paid, and does not want payment until after ATF approval is received.

He said he's looking forward to this project!
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  #33  
Old 04-06-2012, 3:15 PM
intheknow intheknow is offline
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Is this only for the 228? may i request a 226 frame?
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Old 04-06-2012, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jingerale View Post
I'm very interested. Can we also use this thread the to discuss possible resources to complete the frame?
Its hard enough to find a source to complete an ar 80% in NorCal. Any calgunner offering their expertise?
By all means. And I'll start tallying the total number of commitments this weekend.
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Old 04-06-2012, 3:42 PM
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Is this only for the 228? may i request a 226 frame?
According to Rick at KTO, his frames should work for building a P226 (or P228, or P229). However, I've never heard of anyone building a P226 on it. Doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen, just that I couldn't find any info on it.
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)
Quote:
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Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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  #36  
Old 04-06-2012, 4:43 PM
cmartin72 cmartin72 is offline
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I will be in for 1, maybe 2.
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  #37  
Old 04-06-2012, 9:55 PM
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Parts list? Parts kit links?? Sounds fun, and I vote steel!
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  #38  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:27 PM
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In for two!
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Old 04-06-2012, 10:45 PM
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Added a poll on whether you prefer a steel or aluminum frame. Personally, I want both, and I already have the steel ones.
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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  #40  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:55 PM
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I am in for 1, perhaps 2.
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