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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-25-2012, 1:51 PM
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Default the 5 things to say after a shooting

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/05/2...real-shooting/


makes sense
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  #2  
Old 03-25-2012, 8:17 PM
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Dupe, but I think it needs to be duped or even stickied.
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Old 03-26-2012, 2:44 AM
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Default Excellent advice!!!!

I whole-heartedly agree. Good sound advice. Good video and I suggest in todays climate with the Florida shooting this is definitely made aware of for all people hear. Sticky?
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Old 03-26-2012, 2:57 AM
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So I write it down at least once:

1. point out the perpetrator
2. tell police you will sign the complaint
3. point out evidence (such as he fired at me, look at those shell casings by him)
4. point out witnesses
5. will give full cooperation in 24 hours after speaking with an attorney.
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Old 03-26-2012, 7:53 AM
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Thanks! Great advice. Probably good idea to write those 5 things down on a Post-It and stick it on the back of your permit.

Gave this thread 5 stars.

Added this info and link to the "Crime Avoidance & Self-Defense Advice" linked in my sig line.
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Old 03-26-2012, 8:15 AM
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Probably the most succinct summary available.
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Old 03-26-2012, 9:04 AM
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Right after saying "Oh ****!"

the 5 things to say after a shooting
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:03 AM
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Another great informational video from Massad Ayoob. Another great video of his for CCW holders is this one.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:31 AM
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I thought there was only one thing to say: "I'm saying nothing without my attorney present", or something to that degree... At least that's what I keep hearing...
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mag360 View Post
So I write it down at least once:

1. point out the perpetrator
2. tell police you will sign the complaint
3. point out evidence (such as he fired at me, look at those shell casings by him)
4. point out witnesses
5. will give full cooperation in 24 hours after speaking with an attorney.
Sounds good except for #2. If you tell me that I am going to ask for what charge. When I write my report by the end of the shift it has to have a charge associated with it. Are we talking 245, 664/187, 417?

You are going to have to decide if you want to give me a cliff notes version.

To give you an idea of what we go through we do a lot of the five things lited above except we do not get the luxury of 24 hours rest. We have to do it before we go home or we go home without a job.
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:00 AM
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1) "WOO HOO!!! I'll bet you never try that again you sumbeeattch!!"
2) "Hey officer, you see that? Arm, leg and chest man, three out of 15 ain't bad under stress!!"
3) "Hey! Is he takin' pictures? Can I get a shot of my with my foot on him for above the fireplace?"
4) "Dammit!! Did anyone see where I dropped my beer?"
5) Hey, wanna get pancakes?"
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by RMP91 View Post
I thought there was only one thing to say: "I'm saying nothing without my attorney present", or something to that degree... At least that's what I keep hearing...
While it is your right to have an attorney present while being interviewed, I guarantee if you do not talk to the cops at the scene and give them at least the 5 things listed above, you will be sitting in the pokey until you can make bail. The presumption is, if you had to use deadly force you are the victim.

If you're the victim, why wouldn't you talk briefly to the cops to briefly tell them what happened, point out critical evidence, witnesses etc. Advise the officers after that you want an attorney and shut up! When they take you downtown for an interview, tell the cops you want your attorney present and would be happy to talk with them at that time.

And always remember, the prosecutor and the liberal media will paint you as a gun toting psycho who was just looking for the chance to shoot someone...ala Charles Bronson. All the shooting classes you took and range training will be used against you, to show what a nut you were. The Libs do not believe in self-defense.

Good relevant advice in the wake of the current events in Florida.
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by RMP91 View Post
I thought there was only one thing to say: "I'm saying nothing without my attorney present", or something to that degree... At least that's what I keep hearing...
A DA investigator down near L.A. did that and ended up in prison. The jury only heard, "That man ran up to that car, yelled something, and shot that poor man in the car."

His attorney advised him poorly in my opinion.
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
1) "WOO HOO!!! I'll bet you never try that again you sumbeeattch!!"
2) "Hey officer, you see that? Arm, leg and chest man, three out of 15 ain't bad under stress!!"
3) "Hey! Is he takin' pictures? Can I get a shot of my with my foot on him for above the fireplace?"
4) "Dammit!! Did anyone see where I dropped my beer?"
5) Hey, wanna get onion rings?"
FTFY
I think the cooperation after speaking with an attorney is likely the best advice
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
1) "WOO HOO!!! I'll bet you never try that again you sumbeeattch!!"
2) "Hey officer, you see that? Arm, leg and chest man, three out of 15 ain't bad under stress!!"
3) "Hey! Is he takin' pictures? Can I get a shot of my with my foot on him for above the fireplace?"
4) "Dammit!! Did anyone see where I dropped my beer?"
5) Hey, wanna get pancakes?"
6) Give the coroner my taxidermist's address. He's expecting him.
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:35 AM
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Sounds good
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  #17  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cacop View Post
Sounds good except for #2. If you tell me that I am going to ask for what charge. When I write my report by the end of the shift it has to have a charge associated with it. Are we talking 245, 664/187, 417?

You are going to have to decide if you want to give me a cliff notes version.

To give you an idea of what we go through we do a lot of the five things lited above except we do not get the luxury of 24 hours rest. We have to do it before we go home or we go home without a job.

so . .. . .what's wrong with that?
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Old 03-26-2012, 1:03 PM
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Number 1, 3, 4 and 5 sound reasonable. I think cacop has a point about number 2. I certainly don't know what to offer as a charge for any complaint. Will the cops even ask?
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Old 03-26-2012, 1:38 PM
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2. I will sign the "self defense" complaint? is that better.
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Old 03-26-2012, 1:44 PM
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Officer I was afraid for my life, I will make a full statement after speaking with my attorny.


/end conversation.
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Old 03-26-2012, 1:52 PM
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I thought you're supposed to say, "I thought I was going to die" and then immediately STFU.
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Old 03-26-2012, 2:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
1) "WOO HOO!!! I'll bet you never try that again you sumbeeattch!!"
2) "Hey officer, you see that? Arm, leg and chest man, three out of 15 ain't bad under stress!!"
3) "Hey! Is he takin' pictures? Can I get a shot of my with my foot on him for above the fireplace?"
4) "Dammit!! Did anyone see where I dropped my beer?"
5) Hey, wanna get pancakes?"
I like the thought but, who's going to run Calguns after you get locked up?
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Old 03-26-2012, 2:16 PM
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good post
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Old 03-26-2012, 2:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
Officer I was afraid for my life, I will make a full statement after speaking with my attorny.


/end conversation.
This.

Not to mention, right after you most likely will be in shock and not even sure what exactly happened.
You don't want to stumble over your statement b/c you are still recovering from the severity of the situation and are not going to be thinking clearly.
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Old 03-26-2012, 2:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMP91 View Post
I thought there was only one thing to say: "I'm saying nothing without my attorney present", or something to that degree... At least that's what I keep hearing...
Yes this is the advice I would say is likely best for most people but the video is also good sound advice IF and only IF you keep it to just that and say nothing more. The reason why most attorneys say to tell them that you will speak to them after consulting with your attorney and give a full statement with your attorney present is because people have a tendency to not STFU especially when being asked questions by the police--they just keep going and going and going until they are in trouble legally speaking. However a good point is if you say you will give a statement after you consult with your attorney you may be arrested and have to wait to post bail (it honestly would depend on the situation at the scene and the evidence presented at the time to the investigating police).

Probably the best is to simply say as some have said that:
1. I was in substantial fear of being seriously injured or killed (not of life or get into the details)and fired in self defense.
2. If evidence is present which helps you then point out that evidence to the police so it is preserved (i.e. knife, shell casings by perp aggressor, etc.)
3. If witnesses are present then make sure that you get their names and phone numbers for your attorney (either by pointing them out to police or otherwise getting them peaceably).
4. State to the police that because of the seriousness of the situation that you will be more than happy to cooperate and give a complete statement of your actions you made in self-defense in 24-48hours after you have spoken to your attorney.
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Old 03-26-2012, 3:16 PM
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haha i like it
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Old 03-26-2012, 3:19 PM
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I took a CCW class about 12 years ago and the detective teaching it was very clear about the things that you can easily do to hang yourself. Some of his examples were:
1. How many bullets did you fire? Chances are you really aren't sure, even if you *think* you only fired a couple.
2. Where there any witnesses? You might not have seen anyone but if someone did see, they most likely wouldn't have stopped. They will most likely come forward later.

Basically any inconsistencies or flaws can make you look really bad to a jury.

I highly recommend this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
It's a lecture by a law school prof and he gets a cop to come in to do the bulk of the lecture.
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Old 03-26-2012, 3:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corona762 View Post
While it is your right to have an attorney present while being interviewed, I guarantee if you do not talk to the cops at the scene and give them at least the 5 things listed above, you will be sitting in the pokey until you can make bail. The presumption is, if you had to use deadly force you are the victim.

If you're the victim, why wouldn't you talk briefly to the cops to briefly tell them what happened, point out critical evidence, witnesses etc. Advise the officers after that you want an attorney and shut up! When they take you downtown for an interview, tell the cops you want your attorney present and would be happy to talk with them at that time.

And always remember, the prosecutor and the liberal media will paint you as a gun toting psycho who was just looking for the chance to shoot someone...ala Charles Bronson. All the shooting classes you took and range training will be used against you, to show what a nut you were. The Libs do not believe in self-defense.

Good relevant advice in the wake of the current events in Florida.
The police do not need to advise you of your rights or provide a attorney during interviews. Only during Custodial interrogations do the police need to advise you of your rights.

As far as "provide" an attorney during interrogations. Not really. That would be a public defender after arrest and after your first appearance in court and after it was determined you could not afford your own attorney.
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Old 03-26-2012, 6:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
1) "WOO HOO!!! I'll bet you never try that again you sumbeeattch!!"
2) "Hey officer, you see that? Arm, leg and chest man, three out of 15 ain't bad under stress!!"
3) "Hey! Is he takin' pictures? Can I get a shot of my with my foot on him for above the fireplace?"
4) "Dammit!! Did anyone see where I dropped my beer?"
5) Hey, wanna get pancakes?"
6) "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours!!!"

Erik.
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Old 03-26-2012, 7:46 PM
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If it's a good shooting (self defense) and you've done 1 thru 5, expect a blood test to see if you're on drugs or alcohol. Also, they might do a powder residue test on your hands to make sure you were the shooter. (they might put paperbags on your hands until the lab truck arrives)

Depending on the situation and assuming it is a good shooting with witnesses and evidence in your favor, put your weapon on the ground and back up a few feet. Make sure nobody tampers with the Perps body or weapon.

Even though some others may have called 9-1-1 you call 9-1-1- anyway.

Just say "a man tryed to kill me. I think I stopped him".

Ask any witnesses to stay around until the police arrive.

The police will roll up HOT and ready for action. Keep your hands in plain sight. Ask the witnesses to mention it was self defense, point out your weapon on the ground. Be calm, tell your story. Expect an interview with someone higher up than a patrol officer. You will be taken inside close by somewhere where they will give you a short interview. They will take your weapon and magazine with them. Once the higher up decides its a GOOD SHOOTING, they will send you home. No trip downtown.

If the PERP was a well known criminal that the police have been looking for, expect kudos and smiles from officers milling around or setting up the crime scene perimeter. If the PERP was a Federal Felon as well, expect the FBI to show up with-in the hour.

Might take a couple of months, but the doorbell will ring and a Police officer will hand you a box with your weapon inside.

Be well, Bob
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Old 03-26-2012, 8:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vantec08 View Post
so . .. . .what's wrong with that?
Put yourself in the shoes of the responding officers.

Due to lag time from call taker to dispatcher to officer you likely aren't going to get much more than "shots fired, man down, man with a gun." How are you going to know who is the suspect and who is the victim?

If the victim is calling do you automatically believe them? After all you have arrested people for various crimes after they call 911 to try to shift guilt onto their victim?

Even when you arrive on scene there is a man with gun. Is he the victim or the suspect? If you make a bad decision here it could cost you your life.

Even after the dust settles and you start interviewing witnesses they may have only seen the last part of this act, "Officer that man shot that other man for no reason." Or is that all there really is to this scene?

What if the guy with bullet holes is still breathing and says, "Officer that man shot me for no reason." Do you discount everything he says or do you believe it?

What about evidence? At this stage of the game you don't have much you can walk into court with. Fingerprint will take at least a couple of days if you have someone in house. If you have to send it out it could be weeks. DNA will take months. Shell casings won't tell you much except maybe which gun fired if they are different calibers. Extractor mark comparision will take weeks or months. Same for projectiles. Running serial numbers will only give you something if one comes up stolen. Guns can be bought long before registration or bought in another state where FTF does not require an FFL.

So now you have a report to write. You have a chief to make happy. You have a DA who wants answers. What crimes were comitted and by who?

If one party isn't telling you, "That man over there tried to rob me at knife/gun point and I defended myself." There is no claim of self defense. You have very little evidence unless you have an independent third party witness who saw the event from start to finish. Or better still video.

Like I said that list is a good list but my advice would be to give a cliff notes version. I plan to when at work or even off duty. I will of course have to give a more complete version long before a non-LEO would have to but I would give them something. Statements could be as simple as, "That man tried to kill me with that weapon over there I defended myself with that weapon because I was in fear for my life." Responding officer knows to look at charging the other half with 664/187.

Mas Ayoob has written about this need to say what happened in his columns and his internet postings. You should go over to Glocktalk and check out his GATE Self defense forum.
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Old 03-26-2012, 9:13 PM
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Quote:
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Number 1, 3, 4 and 5 sound reasonable. I think cacop has a point about number 2. I certainly don't know what to offer as a charge for any complaint. Will the cops even ask?
When we run across people that are victims we ask, "What happened?" If we aren't sure we will still ask because Miranda does not apply if we are not "asking questions designed to elicit an incriminating response."

We do not expect people to quote penal codes. We will fill in the report form. In my department we will even have you sign a citation for a citizen's arrest. We do expect victims to state what happened, even briefly, because that is what they do.

Suspects tend to tell us to go have sex with ourselves. Or they try to spin the story like they are the victim. Sometimes they are good enough to come up with a plausible story.

Witnesses are almost useless most of the time. They rarely ever see the event from start to finish. They always see the second punch. They rarely ever see the first punch. Expect that if you have to shoot someone.
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Old 03-26-2012, 9:44 PM
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^^^This^^^

As an investigator on the scene of a self defense shooting, if you as the shooter are able, I'd at least like to get some high level information on points 1, 3 and 4 before you invoke. That's your opportunity to be heard in the moment when the event is fresh in your mind and get your side of it on the record first. Even if it's the bare bones of 'I was doing x, saw him do y, I believed that I was going to be killed / seriously hurt, this person over here saw what happened and I'd like the opportunity to consult with counsel before I answer more in depth', it's better than nothing. And it's way better than having a live suspect run his gob about how he's the victim for a day or two while unchallenged.
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Old 03-26-2012, 9:44 PM
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^^^This^^^

As an investigator on the scene of a self defense shooting, if you as the shooter are able, I'd at least like to get some high level information on points 1, 3 and 4 before you invoke. That's your opportunity to be heard in the moment when the event is fresh in your mind and get your side of it on the record first. Even if it's the bare bones of 'I was doing x, saw him do y, I believed that I was going to be killed / seriously hurt, this person over here saw what happened and I'd like the opportunity to consult with counsel before I answer more in depth', it's better than nothing. And it's way better than having a live suspect run his gob about how he's the victim for a day or two while unchallenged.
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:05 AM
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so the

"yo coppers... head shot just like in CALL OF DUTY"

is wrong????



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Old 03-27-2012, 1:05 AM
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If it's a good shooting (self defense) and you've done 1 thru 5, expect a blood test to see if you're on drugs or alcohol. Also, they might do a powder residue test on your hands to make sure you were the shooter. (they might put paperbags on your hands until the lab truck arrives)

Depending on the situation and assuming it is a good shooting with witnesses and evidence in your favor, put your weapon on the ground and back up a few feet. Make sure nobody tampers with the Perps body or weapon.

Even though some others may have called 9-1-1 you call 9-1-1- anyway.

Just say "a man tryed to kill me. I think I stopped him".

Ask any witnesses to stay around until the police arrive.

The police will roll up HOT and ready for action. Keep your hands in plain sight. Ask the witnesses to mention it was self defense, point out your weapon on the ground. Be calm, tell your story. Expect an interview with someone higher up than a patrol officer. You will be taken inside close by somewhere where they will give you a short interview. They will take your weapon and magazine with them. Once the higher up decides its a GOOD SHOOTING, they will send you home. No trip downtown.

If the PERP was a well known criminal that the police have been looking for, expect kudos and smiles from officers milling around or setting up the crime scene perimeter. If the PERP was a Federal Felon as well, expect the FBI to show up with-in the hour.

Might take a couple of months, but the doorbell will ring and a Police officer will hand you a box with your weapon inside.

Be well, Bob
A few men much smarter than me told me when you call 911, ask for an ambulance FIRST, then explain briefly what happened.. Describe yourself to the dispatcher and explain where you will be waiting for EMT/LEOs. Do not say you tried to kill anybody.
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Old 03-27-2012, 3:55 AM
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Put yourself in the shoes of the responding officers.

Due to lag time from call taker to dispatcher to officer you likely aren't going to get much more than "shots fired, man down, man with a gun." How are you going to know who is the suspect and who is the victim?

If the victim is calling do you automatically believe them? After all you have arrested people for various crimes after they call 911 to try to shift guilt onto their victim?

Even when you arrive on scene there is a man with gun. Is he the victim or the suspect? If you make a bad decision here it could cost you your life.

Even after the dust settles and you start interviewing witnesses they may have only seen the last part of this act, "Officer that man shot that other man for no reason." Or is that all there really is to this scene?

What if the guy with bullet holes is still breathing and says, "Officer that man shot me for no reason." Do you discount everything he says or do you believe it?

What about evidence? At this stage of the game you don't have much you can walk into court with. Fingerprint will take at least a couple of days if you have someone in house. If you have to send it out it could be weeks. DNA will take months. Shell casings won't tell you much except maybe which gun fired if they are different calibers. Extractor mark comparision will take weeks or months. Same for projectiles. Running serial numbers will only give you something if one comes up stolen. Guns can be bought long before registration or bought in another state where FTF does not require an FFL.

So now you have a report to write. You have a chief to make happy. You have a DA who wants answers. What crimes were comitted and by who?

If one party isn't telling you, "That man over there tried to rob me at knife/gun point and I defended myself." There is no claim of self defense. You have very little evidence unless you have an independent third party witness who saw the event from start to finish. Or better still video.

Like I said that list is a good list but my advice would be to give a cliff notes version. I plan to when at work or even off duty. I will of course have to give a more complete version long before a non-LEO would have to but I would give them something. Statements could be as simple as, "That man tried to kill me with that weapon over there I defended myself with that weapon because I was in fear for my life." Responding officer knows to look at charging the other half with 664/187.

Mas Ayoob has written about this need to say what happened in his columns and his internet postings. You should go over to Glocktalk and check out his GATE Self defense forum.

Put yourself in the shoes of a citizen. .. the less said to LE the better.
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Old 03-27-2012, 5:46 AM
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I recall reading that Ayoob has testified for people he believed were innocent but went to prison anyways. I hope he believes that is a bad outcome and offers his advice in the hope it will prevent that from happening to others.

I get the point about loss of evidence so saying something about an attacker having something in his hand that looked like a knife or a gun or other weapon is probably a good idea. I also get the point about witnesses. Who knows? The cops might take time away from their favorite Starbucks and look for the evidence and take some statements .

Nevertheless, anything you say to the police goes in their report. That can and will be used against you. Maybe not by the cops. They might even be glad you caulked the "sumbeeattch". Maybe you get lucky and the DA isn't whoring for headlines that week and will do the right thing. If charges are filed the judge might throw the case out or the jury might have an attack of good sense. However, even if you get through the minefield of the criminal "justice" system next up comes the ambulance chaser who sees an opportunity to advance himself at your expense.

Somewhere in the above process those sensible statements you made to the police will be used against you. OTOH, anything you say to your attorney is privileged communication so I can see there are good reasons to shut up and don't talk to the cops.
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Old 03-27-2012, 8:00 AM
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I recall reading that Ayoob has testified for people he believed were innocent but went to prison anyways. I hope he believes that is a bad outcome and offers his advice in the hope it will prevent that from happening to others.

I get the point about loss of evidence so saying something about an attacker having something in his hand that looked like a knife or a gun or other weapon is probably a good idea. I also get the point about witnesses. Who knows? The cops might take time away from their favorite Starbucks and look for the evidence and take some statements .

Nevertheless, anything you say to the police goes in their report. That can and will be used against you. Maybe not by the cops. They might even be glad you caulked the "sumbeeattch". Maybe you get lucky and the DA isn't whoring for headlines that week and will do the right thing. If charges are filed the judge might throw the case out or the jury might have an attack of good sense. However, even if you get through the minefield of the criminal "justice" system next up comes the ambulance chaser who sees an opportunity to advance himself at your expense.

Somewhere in the above process those sensible statements you made to the police will be used against you. OTOH, anything you say to your attorney is privileged communication so I can see there are good reasons to shut up and don't talk to the cops.


Well said. The case will leave the hands of the local police and enter the realm of those who are politically influenced.
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:38 AM
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Put yourself in the shoes of a citizen. .. the less said to LE the better.
I have a far more likely chance of having a shooting than if I were a engineer in a cube. I also have a far greater chance of being prosecuted for a "controversial" shooting.

My inital after shooting statement will be at scene and it will at least indicate that I was the victim of a violent crime that could have led to serious bodily injury or death.

Your choice. You deal with the consequences.
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