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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #481  
Old 01-12-2012, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Festus, I have very large concerns about this initiative. The discussion is why people would support the initiative and how they might justify the inequities it might cause. I have tried to present that thinking.
Earlier you mentioned something along the lines of, 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' Basically you asserted that this would make LTCs available to more people by virtue of it being 'shall issue'

If you are set in that line of thinking; consider this. Today 99.9% of those who legally own a handgun in CA are eligible to get an LTC. Obviously, actually getting issued one has varying degrees of difficulty. The primary roadblock today is defining Good Cause (GC) and Good Moral Character (GMC)

We are already well on our way to getting both clearly defined. This will 'fix' LTC issuance in CA.

This initiative 'fixes' 'shall issue' but it brings with it a multitude of vague disqualifiers that leave issuing agencies HUGE latitude to disqualify someone as ineligible. Ultimately reducing the 99.9% from above in some fashion. How much, that's hard to say; but its without a doubt much lower eligibility than it is today.
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  #482  
Old 01-12-2012, 12:35 PM
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. . . Today 99.9% of those who legally own a handgun in CA are eligible to get an LTC.
All good points. The only problem is that the typically gun owner probably feels they have no chance of a LTC in many parts of California, despite the strides of Cal Guns.

I live in Alameda county so I have a hard time believing the statement above from a practical point of view. I am not a large campaign contributor to the local sheriff and I have no compromising photos so the 99.9% number seems pretty far away.
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  #483  
Old 01-12-2012, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
We are already well on our way to getting both clearly defined. This will 'fix' LTC issuance in CA.
I know that there are many here that believe this and even more that hope it is true, including myself, but De León and his buds will just a quickly pass legislation to screw the lid back on the minute anything in current law is struck down that opens it up.

He believes with every fiber in his body that he is working to protect us from ourselves and will stop at nothing to keep us misguided souls safe.

As much as a lot of people here despise Piazza and any thought that he could make money off this, I still think this is interesting.

As AAShooter points out, maybe an ADA attack on the mental health section would work.
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  #484  
Old 01-12-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DVSmith View Post
I know that there are many here that believe this and even more that hope it is true, including myself, but De León and his buds will just a quickly pass legislation to screw the lid back on the minute anything in current law is struck down that opens it up.

He believes with every fiber in his body that he is working to protect us from ourselves and will stop at nothing to keep us misguided souls safe.

As much as a lot of people here despise Piazza and any thought that he could make money off this, I still think this is interesting.

As AAShooter points out, maybe an ADA attack on the mental health section would work.
It will be exponentially easier to fight legislation, even potentially get an injunction preventing it from going into effect, than it would be to fix this terribly flawed ballot initiative.
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  #485  
Old 01-12-2012, 12:52 PM
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It will be exponentially easier to fight legislation, even potentially get an injunction preventing it from going into effect, than it would be to fix this terribly flawed ballot initiative.
If that were the case then good cause would have been fixed long ago.
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  #486  
Old 01-12-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DVSmith View Post
If that were the case then good cause would have been fixed long ago.
I see no reason to believe that's true. The political and legal climate has changed dramatically since the draconian carry laws we have were passed, and ballot initiatives are impossible to amend while legislation is not.

Do you not realize that there are lawsuits in the circuit courts all over the country that are 1 step away from fixing the issue of discretion? Probably representing millions of dollars being spent, thousands of man hours, and we're almost there. We're in the 4th quarter, progress is being made. This would be starting a brand new game which would be much harder to win. It doesn't even slightly resemble progress.

ETA: A big part of the reason things weren't fixed long ago is because less than 4 years ago it wasn't even clear that the second amendment protected an individual right and less than 2 years ago that right didn't apply to the states at all. Its been about a year and a half since incorporation of the 2nd amendment, the courts don't move at internet speed.
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  #487  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
The logic is simple. For most Californians you can't carry a firearm to protect your family (although Calguns is making progress on this). So, with this initiative, many more will be able to carry. Let's say 60% can now qualify. So this gets us over half way there.

The fact that it is unfair to you or violates your perceived rights is truly unfortunate but that is currently the case anyway. Life isn't fair . . . that's life. You are more likely to have someone around you in a public that is carrying so that is advantageous to you.

As Star Trek taught us: " . . . logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." You may not like it. It may not be fair . . . but that's the logic.

It's like Obama's health care bill . . . some people will not benefit.
And we're back to this:
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
This initiative does two things and two things only.

Lines Piazza's pockets with cash.

Disenfranchises a HUGE percentage of law abiding citizens and strips them of their rights.

That is NOT a victory or a positive step forward.
So you're good with removing a fundamental right from what would probably be half or more of the population so that the rest can have that right.

Hmm....
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  #488  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DVSmith View Post
If that were the case then good cause would have been fixed long ago.
You have to have the right plaintiff, the right situation, the right precedents, the right court, etc. We have good reason to believe we have those now.

Now universal access to a carry license for responsible citizens is being destroyed by some who claim to favor it.

And you know? The timing of this is rather odd. Why push this initiative now, at a time when we would likely get all the benefits of the initiative within months of any successful passage anyway? Why throw in gratuitous restrictions? Where does Piazza plan to come up with the millions of dollars to gain passage after it qualifies (assuming it does qualify).

Do remember that it typically costs millions to get a proposition passed. This will be especially so when the proposition is opposed by the chiefs of police, Kamala Harris, the legislature, etc. Does someone want to tell me that Piazza plans to finance this himself? If he is not planning to finance this himself, from whom does he plan to extract the funds?

This is really weird stuff if you assume that this is being done for the purest of reasons and all aboveboard.
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  #489  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:15 PM
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"The proposal backed by Piazza is harmful."
"I think it's a step forward."
"No, it's not. The proposal, if it were be passed, would do X, Y, Z..."
"It would still be better than what we have now."
"No, it would not, because of [1], [2], [3]..."
"Well, we could just get those issues fixed by passing a cleanup bill."
"No, you couldn't, because initiatives may only be modified by passage of another initiative."
"Well, then we'd challenge those issues in court."
("Who's we?") "I [run an organization which does that/volunteer for an organization which does that] and I'm telling you (A) that this proposal is harmful to your rights, and (B) that there's no reason to expect anything but further delays in court should this proposal be passed."
"The courts are taking too long. We need this now."
And repeat.

-Brandon
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  #490  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:23 PM
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^Good point.
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  #491  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
And we're back to this:


So you're good with removing a fundamental right from what would probably be half or more of the population so that the rest can have that right.

Hmm....
I am not sure to whom you are addressing the question. Perhaps it is a rhetorical question.

Personally I am not comfortable but for many the "fundamental right" has already been effectively stripped away. Further, as stated earlier, many don't view it as a fundamental right and are comfortable denying the privilege to many of its citizens. Otherwise more outrage would have been seen about this much earlier.
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  #492  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:31 PM
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Wow, first South Park is offered up as a serious citation for the nature of Scientology, now Star Trek is being suggested as fount of sound philosophical and moral principles.

This thread is awesome.
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  #493  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
"The proposal backed by Piazza is harmful."
"I think it's a step forward."
"No, it's not. The proposal, if it were be passed, would do X, Y, Z..."
"It would still be better than what we have now."
"No, it would not, because of [1], [2], [3]..."
"Well, we could just get those issues fixed by passing a cleanup bill."
"No, you couldn't, because initiatives may only be modified by passage of another initiative."
"Well, then we'd challenge those issues in court."
("Who's we?") "I [run an organization which does that/volunteer for an organization which does that] and I'm telling you (A) that this proposal is harmful to your rights, and (B) that there's no reason to expect anything but further delays in court should this proposal be passed."
"The courts are taking too long. We need this now."
And repeat.

-Brandon
I think that's a fair summary of the thread.

Anybody have anything constructive, useful or amusing to say about the initiative, that hasn't been posted yet?
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  #494  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:34 PM
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On the subject of medication, what about the thousands of people who have taken Wellbutrin (bupropion) to help quit smoking? Wellbutrin (bupropion) is an antidepressant medication that has been found to help smokers trying to quit. How many of them will be barred from getting a LTC because they did the good thing by quitting smoking?

Another group of crazy people drugs is thorazine and haldol for chemo induced hiccups treatment. My wife was as sane or more so than anyone here but was given one or the other due to chemo induced hiccups or
Nausea and Vomiting. So now cancer patients undergoing chemo treatments should be stripped of their rights too. Many times a drug is invented for one purpose and then is found to work well for something else.
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  #495  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:34 PM
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Just because something is a cartoon doesn't mean it can't have true information in it. Especially a cartoon whose creators specialize in writing informed and relevant social commentary...
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  #496  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
I think that's a fair summary of the thread.

Anybody have anything constructive, useful or amusing to say about the initiative, that hasn't been posted yet?
I'm going to publish a blog post on the subject of the Front Sight/Piazza proposal - and why it's absolutely insane to support it - in the next few days. Until then, I'll be playing with sheriffs and liking my own posts on Facebook.

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  #497  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
"The proposal backed by Piazza is harmful."
"I think it's a step forward."
"No, it's not. The proposal, if it were be passed, would do X, Y, Z..."
"It would still be better than what we have now."
"No, it would not, because of [1], [2], [3]..."
"Well, we could just get those issues fixed by passing a cleanup bill."
"No, you couldn't, because initiatives may only be modified by passage of another initiative."
"Well, then we'd challenge those issues in court."
("Who's we?") "I [run an organization which does that/volunteer for an organization which does that] and I'm telling you (A) that this proposal is harmful to your rights, and (B) that there's no reason to expect anything but further delays in court should this proposal be passed."
"The courts are taking too long. We need this now."
And repeat.

-Brandon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
I think that's a fair summary of the thread.

Anybody have anything constructive, useful or amusing to say about the initiative, that hasn't been posted yet?
Only that the entirety of Brandon's statement above is speculation and opinion. I speculate and opine that the worst case argument presented is far from what would happen.

I simply add that we will never know because this will never make it to the ballot let alone pass.
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  #498  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:47 PM
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Politely, for an uneducated member, dvsmith, how are the factual explanitive rebuttals in Brandon's post you quoted, speculative and opinion? I would like more information please in order to better make up my mind
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They don't believe it's possible, but then Alison didn't believe there'd be 350K - 400K OLLs in CA either.
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  #499  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:51 PM
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If you speculate and opine that the worst case argument is far from what would happen you are far more optimistic than me.

You see, laws are like seeds, they don't stay in the seed stage forever. No matter who and how many people reassure you that "Oh, no, that clause is only going to effect those people, you've got nothing to worry about", those in positions of power ALWAYS abuse the letter of the law.

They don't say "oh, well, the law says this, so we better watch out and leave them alone", they say "well, the law says this, but it DOESN'T say that, so we're going to get away with as much as we possibly can."

Have you forgotten about the PATRIOT act, etc so soon?
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Old 01-12-2012, 1:59 PM
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DVS, keep an eye out for the blog. I hope you don't take it personally when I make it very explicit that you have no idea what you're talking about.

-Brandon
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Old 01-12-2012, 2:20 PM
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Originally Posted by G60 View Post
If you speculate and opine that the worst case argument is far from what would happen you are far more optimistic than me.

You see, laws are like seeds, they don't stay in the seed stage forever. No matter who and how many people reassure you that "Oh, no, that clause is only going to effect those people, you've got nothing to worry about", those in positions of power ALWAYS abuse the letter of the law.

They don't say "oh, well, the law says this, so we better watch out and leave them alone", they say "well, the law says this, but it DOESN'T say that, so we're going to get away with as much as we possibly can."

Have you forgotten about the PATRIOT act, etc so soon?
This, also the old 'unless otherwise directed' in the .Mil and .Gov, I saw it used or heard about being used during my many years in or around .Gov organizations. Someone will write up a plan and do it before someone higher up can say stop. Once it's been done then the .Gov backs it because they will look worse if they say what was done was wrong. Then the .Gov stonewalls anyone who complains about what was done. At that point it's all CYA.
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Old 01-12-2012, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by freonr22 View Post
Politely, for an uneducated member, dvsmith, how are the factual explanitive rebuttals in Brandon's post you quoted, speculative and opinion? I would like more information please in order to better make up my mind
I am attempting to do this as concisely as possible, so if someone wants to quibble with the arguments I am listing against the initiative, they are on their own.

As they have been enumerated in earlier posts (with my opinions in italics simply to differentiate from the original text), what makes this initiative so bad to some here is:

Quote:
Let's have a look at what some of the restrictions in the initiative actually are.

26150 (b) The applicant has no history of medically diagnosed mental illness requiring medication or admission into a mental institution.

This is way overbroad. There are a great many very innocuous medical mental illness diagnoses. For example, if you were so upset when your wife was killed in a car crash caused by a drunk driver that you saw your doctor and got some anti-depressants, you would be disqualified from getting a LTC. Or the death of a child or parent. Or a fire destroying your house. Etc.

These sort of awful life experiences, with their associated severe but short term emotional consequences, could happen to normal, squared away people. There would be no good reason to deny them LTCs.


26150 (c) The applicant has no history of substance abuse.

This refers to history of substance abuse. The recovering alcoholic, who has been clean and sober for ten years and attending AA meeting regularly would be denied a LTC.


26150 (d) The applicant has no history of domestic violence.

This is very vague. Does "history" include a history as a victim? Does history include an accusation which is determined to be false? How about a TRO brought by a vengeful ex-spouse when the accusations are ultimately found to be entirely without merit?


26150 (f) The applicant is not the subject of a restraining order.

There are all kind of restraining orders. If your crazy neighbor gets temporary restraining order against you playing music too loud, you're barred from getting a LTC? Give me a break.
The root problem expressed above is the opinion that these vague and expansive terms, specifically "history" will be used as broadly as possible to limit CCW issuance. This is much the same as Good Cause and Good Morals are used now. My opinion is that this is merely conjecture. In my opinion, the court battles going on now to remove Good Cause, which there seems to be so much hope pinned on, is pure opinion as well.

But let us assume for the moment that Kestryl is correct in that being treated for ADD as a child will prevent you from being issued a CCW permit, we still have to ask if that decreases or increases the population of those eligible on which varying opinions have been put forward.


And then from earlier complaints about my stance on training, the prohibitive cost of the training outlined by the initiative.

This very closely parallels the NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home course which TJ Johnson advertises at $200.00 here: http://www.allsafedefense.com/schedule.htm

That is hardly cost prohibitive in my opinion.


The wording can not be changed without going back to the voters.

This is simply not true. The most repeated complaint is the concern for the mental illness exclusion. In my opinion that would be an easy target in court under the Americans With Disabilities Act. As well may be the exclusion for substance abuse.

I can appreciate the concerns, but I have a hard time just accepting them at face value as facts that are indisputable.

As for the point of the original post that this is just a ruse by Piazza to make money. I share that opinion. This initiative is going nowhere.

I know I am in a minority of one here, but that is how I see it.
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  #503  
Old 01-12-2012, 2:30 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
DVS, keep an eye out for the blog. I hope you don't take it personally when I make it very explicit that you have no idea what you're talking about.

-Brandon
LOL, I will, and no I won't. That is what social and political discourse is all about.
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  #504  
Old 01-12-2012, 2:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
The fact that it is unfair to you or violates your perceived rights is truly unfortunate but that is currently the case anyway. Life isn't fair . . . that's life. You are more likely to have someone around you in a public that is carrying so that is advantageous to you.
I guess my situation that I described above is just my tough luck. Even though I've have an LTC for 18 years, suddenly I'm not worthy because of a car accident. I'll hope that everyone around me hasn't had the same tough luck.
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  #505  
Old 01-12-2012, 2:46 PM
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Fire mission: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=518454
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  #506  
Old 01-12-2012, 2:56 PM
vincewarde vincewarde is offline
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Default The initiative process

The initiative process is a double edged sword:

1) It lets the people make an end run around politicians and make changes to the state constitution - which the politicians then cannot change.

2) This also means that if the initiative is flawed, it is extremely hard to fix the flaws.

It would seem that Front Sight is pushing this because they see a huge potential market - not because their first priority is the 2nd Amendment. If a poorly written initiative leaves a few people unable to get permits, it is not a big deal to them. It should be a big deal to us. IMHO anyone who can legally own a gun should be able to go through a reasonable amount of training and obtain a permit.
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Old 01-12-2012, 3:01 PM
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we need to do something with the laws
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Old 01-12-2012, 3:14 PM
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Originally Posted by vincewarde View Post
The initiative process is a double edged sword:

1) It lets the people make an end run around politicians and make changes to the state constitution - which the politicians then cannot change.

2) This also means that if the initiative is flawed, it is extremely hard to fix the flaws.

It would seem that Front Sight is pushing this because they see a huge potential market - not because their first priority is the 2nd Amendment. If a poorly written initiative leaves a few people unable to get permits, it is not a big deal to them. It should be a big deal to us. IMHO anyone who can legally own a gun should be able to go through a reasonable amount of training and obtain a permit.
Politely, that " few" people you are referring to is quite a few. See


http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml

Can't post the graph from the iPad. It says lifetime prevalence for mental issues across the nation is 46-55% depending on age, above 18 years old.
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They don't believe it's possible, but then Alison didn't believe there'd be 350K - 400K OLLs in CA either.
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Old 01-12-2012, 3:24 PM
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I guess my situation that I described above is just my tough luck. Even though I've have an LTC for 18 years, suddenly I'm not worthy because of a car accident. I'll hope that everyone around me hasn't had the same tough luck.
As I understand the initiative as currently written, that is one potential outcome if it passes. Although that is unfortunate and unfair, some may be willing to accept that if it allowed "forward progress".

This also highlights the problem with incorrect information recorded in your medical record. Sometimes this is done to get the treatment covered by insurance. Ignoring the legality of doing so, it can have future repercussions as we are exploring here.
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Old 01-12-2012, 4:25 PM
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I don't know if the information in my medical record is incorrect. That may be the way it's coded since a drug screen is a regular procedure for drug detox. That I wasn't having the test for those purposes probably didn't matter. I guess I should have gone ahead and taken the doc's offer for anti-depressants then. They're often prescribed when people have horrific accidents that incapacitate them for a period of time, since it's pretty depressing to be in a wheelchair and unable to work or care for your children through no fault of your own.
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Old 01-12-2012, 8:01 PM
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Wow... I don't often post on these types of threads, but *IF YOU READ Dr. Piazza's proposal, and understand his business, it's very clearly self serving, and quite dangerous to CA residents desiring a CCW/LTC.

The medical background info alone is scary.... often flawed for insurance reasons, and you have very little idea what's in your electronic medical record. I do, it's my business... This is a bad initiative... A quick fix at best, that has long lasting repercussions. No time to elaborate now, but this is a bad idea for most, except those that make a living selling CCW instruction to the masses.
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Old 01-12-2012, 8:26 PM
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I don't know if the information in my medical record is incorrect. That may be the way it's coded since a drug screen is a regular procedure for drug detox. That I wasn't having the test for those purposes probably didn't matter. I guess I should have gone ahead and taken the doc's offer for anti-depressants then. They're often prescribed when people have horrific accidents that incapacitate them for a period of time, since it's pretty depressing to be in a wheelchair and unable to work or care for your children through no fault of your own.
And this is one of the scariest aspects of the "computerization of the elctronic medical record (EMR)"....

And you have *NO IDEA* how often this information is shared, and sold, to other agencies/companies.

When you finally get it corrected, those corrections don't usually propgate to the other sources it was sold to, or shared with.

"Dr" Piazza's proposal would doom more folks that you would think from getting a CCW in CA.....

EVERY time you see a Dr., those "notes" are entered into a PERMAMNENT medical record.

Tell your Doc you felt "blue" today? That may come back in 5 years as "Suffers from depression".... Denied.
Source:Healthcare Data Professional
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Old 01-12-2012, 8:36 PM
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On the subject of medication, what about the thousands of people who have taken Wellbutrin (bupropion) to help quit smoking? Wellbutrin (bupropion) is an antidepressant medication that has been found to help smokers trying to quit. How many of them will be barred from getting a LTC because they did the good thing by quitting smoking?

Another group of crazy people drugs is thorazine and haldol for chemo induced hiccups treatment. My wife was as sane or more so than anyone here but was given one or the other due to chemo induced hiccups or
Nausea and Vomiting. So now cancer patients undergoing chemo treatments should be stripped of their rights too. Many times a drug is invented for one purpose and then is found to work well for something else.
Due to the frequent cross-classifications of medications, the proposed "Front Sight" bill could potentially disqualify up to 56% of Americans from qualifying for a CCW permit... But the other 44% could be new clients of Front Sight!
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:16 AM
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Due to the frequent cross-classifications of medications, the proposed "Front Sight" bill could potentially disqualify up to 56% of Americans from qualifying for a CCW permit... But the other 44% could be new clients of Front Sight!
...our it's affliates?

What a frustrating, but eye opening situation. My biggest pet peave - not working together for the best overall outcome, and quite possibly causing harm to "the" movement.
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I guess it depends on what your definition of law breaking is.
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Here, let me Google that for you ... :)

No, no, that would be cruel.
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  #515  
Old 01-13-2012, 2:04 AM
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There is no them in "Front Sight INC", it is only and has always been I.Piazza alone.
To stay alive for the last 15 years is proof he is a marketing genius.
That said, he is quick to litigate and has burned many in business dealings.

Traditionally Scientology nor its followers believe in nor subscribe to psychiatrists or psychoactive medications, e.g. remember Tom Cruse criticizing Brook Shields on Ophra regarding use of antidepressant medication.

I have benefited from Front sight classes in past in CA 12 yrs back. As a California resident and voter this new Diamond member would have him stand down on this issue.
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Old 01-13-2012, 5:41 AM
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People, please listen to those in the know.

Someone with a LTC in UT, FL, AZ and NV should also LTC in CA

That's the most common sense argument IMO.


This initiative does not accomplish the above - and it must.
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Old 01-13-2012, 6:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Inyoite View Post
I don't know if the information in my medical record is incorrect. That may be the way it's coded since a drug screen is a regular procedure for drug detox. That I wasn't having the test for those purposes probably didn't matter. I guess I should have gone ahead and taken the doc's offer for anti-depressants then. They're often prescribed when people have horrific accidents that incapacitate them for a period of time, since it's pretty depressing to be in a wheelchair and unable to work or care for your children through no fault of your own.
Right, and folks in wheelchairs need CCW's too. The whole thing stinks. Anyone FOR this pile of crap needs to be excluded from our movement, if they don't see how bad this is.

Otherwise, they are simply not good people. No rational person would wish this kind of thing. It is a very bad thing that will hurt many people.


Sent from my brain, to yours. . .
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Old 01-13-2012, 6:46 AM
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I'm going to publish a blog post on the subject of the Front Sight/Piazza proposal - and why it's absolutely insane to support it - in the next few days. Until then, I'll be playing with sheriffs and liking my own posts on Facebook.

-Brandon
Did you know liking your own posts on facebook is like giving yourself a high five? I think I read that somewhere.....
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Old 01-13-2012, 6:48 AM
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There is no them in "Front Sight INC", it is only and has always been I.Piazza alone. . . .
This is spot on. People talk about talking to his top guy or his right hand man . . . I try to ask who they think that is.
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Old 01-13-2012, 7:39 AM
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I'm one such person that had a horrific car accident, got a mild concussion, snapped my femur clean in two and a bunch of other fun stuff...how I lived through that one I have no idea, nor do the EMS guys that showed up and did a spectacular job. But when you have a mild concussion, your brain chemicals slightly fluctuate for a bit, then it's compounded by taking narcotics for the severe pain of the physical injuries and compounded again when you go from being productive & working 12-hour days in a thriving industry that you enjoy, to laying down trying to move often enough to not get bed sores and hoping you'll be able to at least be able to get into a wheelchair soon.

It's not at all uncommon for people to take an anti-depressant of some sort for a couple months for something like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
Right, and folks in wheelchairs need CCW's too. The whole thing stinks. Anyone FOR this pile of crap needs to be excluded from our movement, if they don't see how bad this is.

Otherwise, they are simply not good people. No rational person would wish this kind of thing. It is a very bad thing that will hurt many people.


Sent from my brain, to yours. . .
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Originally Posted by Inyoite View Post
I don't know if the information in my medical record is incorrect. That may be the way it's coded since a drug screen is a regular procedure for drug detox. That I wasn't having the test for those purposes probably didn't matter. I guess I should have gone ahead and taken the doc's offer for anti-depressants then. They're often prescribed when people have horrific accidents that incapacitate them for a period of time, since it's pretty depressing to be in a wheelchair and unable to work or care for your children through no fault of your own.
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