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Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

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  #1  
Old 12-24-2011, 11:40 AM
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Default Is this PRK legal, and if so, how/where to get one???

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Old 12-24-2011, 11:43 AM
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it can be legal.

no handcrank and it needs to have a 16" barrel. The one that I know if in CA is set up so that the tripod won't spin 360* so that it won't ever end up <26" OAL.
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:51 PM
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where could one find such a fun gun in a CA friendly configuration? I'm finding them outside of CA no problem, just not in CA, or not in a CA friendly kit.

Does CADOJ define the crank as a multi-burst activator or something? It's def still semi-auto and the guy even explains how it can't increase the rate of fire since the "machine gun" guts aren't there....??
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishPirate View Post
where could one find such a fun gun in a CA friendly configuration? I'm finding them outside of CA no problem, just not in CA, or not in a CA friendly kit.
not sure where you'd find one except to contact lakeside and see about getting on the waiting list.

Quote:
Does CADOJ define the crank as a multi-burst activator or something? It's def still semi-auto and the guy even explains how it can't increase the rate of fire since the "machine gun" guts aren't there....??
yes, the crack would probably be considered a multi-burst activator.

Quote:
(23) As used in this section, a "multiburst trigger activator" means one of the following devices:
(A) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.
(B) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.


I'd look at this thread for more info about the mini-browning, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=62821
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Last edited by ke6guj; 12-24-2011 at 1:01 PM..
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Old 12-24-2011, 2:32 PM
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Thanks for that, this info helped clear some stuff up...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Here is my take on it, use it as you choose:


Lets take this in steps.

First, it is not a "pistol" or "revolver" by definition under both Federal and CA state laws.

Second, it is not a "handgun" under CA state and Federal laws since the ATF has ruled very clearly that as long as the tripod stays riveted to the trunion, it is NOT a "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person".

Third, it is NOT a rifle by definition under both Federal and CA state laws. Therefore, the 16" barrel length requirement doesn't apply to this non-rifle. Also the ATF as specifically approved barrels shorter than 16" on full sized 1919s.

Fourth, the ATF has ruled that it is still a Title 1 firearm that is NOT classified under the NFA (as Any Other Weapon) as long as it remains attached permantly to the tripod, even though it is less than 26" OAL. This was a specific requirement the ATF issued Tippman Arms Co. who was the original builder of these weapons. Lakeside Arms is now buildinig these firearms under that same letter of determination today and that letter would also apply to the home builder.

Fifth, since it is not a "semiautomatic pistol" or a "semiautomatic centerfire rifle", the CA AW laws donot apply.

Conclusion, it is legal under both Federal law and under CA law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
When I read that PC, along with the rest of that section, I see that they are defining a "pistol" to have a barrel less than 16", a "revolver" as one with a barrel less than 16" and a "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" to have a barrel less than 16" or ones that are designed to be interchanged for barrels less than 16". Three distinct firearms that are all subsets of handguns.

Let look at the code again:

Quote:
12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
So here, there is the distinction that a "pistol" is different from a "revolver" and they are separate from all of the other odd weapons that fit the class of being "firearms capable of being concealed upon the person".

Quote:
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol,"
"revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
Here they lump all three of these "unique" firearms into the same class and defined them ALL to be a "Handgun". Otherwords a pistol, revolver and any other "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" are all subset of hanguns.

Quote:
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun,"
"pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a
short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.
Here it says a short barreled rifle can also be a "handgun" which we know is all inclusive to mean "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"


So if one now looks at the AW laws, it states the following is an AW:

Quote:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a
detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor,
forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon
without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the
barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.
Notice that you find the term "semiautomatic pistol" used here. It did not use the all inclusive term "semiautomatic Handgun" to capture all, it did not use the term "revolver" nor did it say a "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" was covered here. It only says "semiautomatic pistol". Which is a unqiue and different firearm than those firearms classified as a "revolver". We all know that a S&W "revolver" is not the same as a S&W "semiautomatic pistol", yes they are all "handguns" and yes they all fall under the term "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person", but they are also very unique by themselves.

So again, I see "pistols" (both semi and single shot), "revolvers" and any other "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" as subsets of the general classification of being a "handgun". That is why I said these short barrel M1919A4s donot fall under the "semi-automatic pistol" classification when dealing with CA's AW laws.

Something to think about......

I'm gonna go look under my couch cushions for $2000, this thing is just too cool to pass up...
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2011, 2:46 PM
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I think the only real drawback is i believe the belts can't be over 10 rounds or you run up against the High-Cap mag laws
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Old 12-24-2011, 2:59 PM
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The one that Jack is talking about was a custom made homebuild. Lakeside is well aware of this custom build and helped the builder with the project by supplying him with a longer barrel and just a lot of over the phone help. Of course, you do realize that these cost at least 3 times what a full sized 1919 does? Also, Lakeside only produces a VERY LIMITED number of kits. So, just getting a kit is not simple and requires months or years of planning and waiting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by microwaveguy View Post
I think the only real drawback is i believe the belts can't be over 10 rounds or you run up against the High-Cap mag laws
WRONG. Just like any other +10 round ammunition feeding device, if you legally own them, you can legally use them. Some of us are lucky enough to have thought that little belts of .22lr were "cute" and bought links and made some +10 round belts for display purposes back when Tipman was making these.
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Old 12-25-2011, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
The one that Jack is talking about was a custom made homebuild. Lakeside is well aware of this custom build and helped the builder with the project by supplying him with a longer barrel and just a lot of over the phone help. Of course, you do realize that these cost at least 3 times what a full sized 1919 does? Also, Lakeside only produces a VERY LIMITED number of kits. So, just getting a kit is not simple and requires months or years of planning and waiting.
Actually, I had the barrel done locally but Lakeside was a big help as I built mine. I don't know if they are doing any more kits, if so they are far and few between. Completed mini's go for about $4,500. While the mini's cost more up front, they make it up quick in the cost of ammo. I shoot my mini far more than my full size 1919. It is easier to carry too.

I was overly cautious of the whole "title 1 firearm" issue here in CA. Back when I did mine, no one had pushed it and I did not want to be a test case. To avoid any chance of a grey area, I choose to make my barrel longer. The only thing changed was the barrel and shroud. Everything else is standard. As I neared completion I noticed that if the tripod (which the ATF says must be permanently attached) rotates all the way and it would bring the OAL to under 26" while the gun could still fire. I again, choose to pin the tripod so it only rotates about 30 degree's to avoid this. There is a letter from the ATF that states the gun as Lakeside builds them is a title one firearm so does that make it a pistol or rifle in CA. Historically CA has called them pistols. But what is the actual legal classification? I am not a lawyer so I choose to error on the side of caution.





Here is another link http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=87846
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Old 12-25-2011, 8:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
WRONG. Just like any other +10 round ammunition feeding device, if you legally own them, you can legally use them. Some of us are lucky enough to have thought that little belts of .22lr were "cute" and bought links and made some +10 round belts for display purposes back when Tipman was making these.
The OP was talking about buying and building a kit so the assumption is he DOES NOT currently have any large capacity belts. IF you happen to have legal belts then fine but I would be surprised if the OP had some.
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Old 12-25-2011, 12:04 PM
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I should add Lakesides website http://www.lakesideguns.com/ They have a forum that you have to register for where they release new things there before they show them on there main site. If you are really interested sign up for their forum and give them a call to be on a waiting list. They also make a 22LR belt fed upper for an AR. I wish I had the money when the mini M2 kits where release. That one I would have dual barrels for both 22 & 17. The M2 shoots Magnums so the cost difference from 22 to 17 isn't much. The mini 1919's shoot 22LR and there is a bigger price difference going to 17. I think the small bottle neck rounds look great with the mini's.
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Old 12-25-2011, 12:08 PM
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I believe Evil Black Rifleworks (EBR works) has a running ad for them in the classifieds.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microwaveguy View Post
The OP was talking about buying and building a kit so the assumption is he DOES NOT currently have any large capacity belts. IF you happen to have legal belts then fine but I would be surprised if the OP had some.
i would have to dig through the boxes of hi-cap mags/belts that my grandfather gave me pre-01/01/2000, but the last time i looked i think i remember seeing a few of them.


A full sized 1919 would be awesome too, and that's on my list as well, but this has the awesome factor, coupled with the fun factor, multiplied by the cost savings in ammo factor, and raised to the power of cool. It's one of those "i don't need it, but i got the money and i know i'm not gonna regret it" type of guns...like a mosin, only way more expensive
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Old 12-26-2011, 3:13 PM
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That thing looks awesome.
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Old 12-26-2011, 8:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishPirate View Post
A full sized 1919 would be awesome too, and that's on my list as well, but this has the awesome factor, coupled with the fun factor, multiplied by the cost savings in ammo factor, and raised to the power of cool. It's one of those "i don't need it, but i got the money and i know i'm not gonna regret it" type of guns...like a mosin, only way more expensive
Parts kits for full size 1919's are drying up and prices are climbing to match. If you want a full size, I would get the parts kit as soon as you can. As for the mini 1919, the are and have always been limited production new and prices aren't raising as fast as the full size ones. Using surplus parts, helps keep the cost of the full size ones down. There are no surplus parts in the mini's.
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