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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #41  
Old 12-05-2011, 7:34 AM
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If you look closely in the video, the author is using Mojo peep sights.

Not to stir a debate, but these can be highly inaccurate since the eye is too far from the aperture. He did damn well for using them.

I would like to see the channel test with notch sights that came with the AK platform if you want a tue comparison from a purist viewpoint on each weapon based upon one person shooting ability on stock platforms.

Want to make it even, put a Texas dog leg rail with peep sights on the AK then test

Or alternatively put a T1 on both then test.

The current test to me seems flawed even for a one person test.

Ps test a 5.56 AK with the above recommendations to the M4 to take out the variability of ammo using the same type of ammo.

Yes I know the 556 AKs aren't as reliable from what I have heard but you control variable of ammo and single out the mechanics of the platform.

Opposite use a SW 5.45 upper for the 5 shot group against the AK74.

I would also suggest 10 shot groups fwiw.

Keep the videos coming.
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  #42  
Old 12-05-2011, 7:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Code7inOaktown View Post
It's a pretty decent video as AK accuracy is really not that bad. And AR reliability isn't really that bad either.
While I agree for the most part, there are those that have had very different experiences.

http://www.hotsr.com/news/WireHeadli...ght-rai-33.php

I know from first hand experience that the M16 requires regular maintenance in less than ideal environments. I learned to live with it.

As a side note, here are the results of the US Army's sand tests from 2006. They didn't include an AK, but my gut tells me it would have done much better than the M4, perhaps as well as the XM8.



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but I think there is disagreement as to the effectiveness of the 5.45mm. Respected ballistics expert Dr. Gary K. Roberts: "While I can't vouch for the accuracy, according to some SF colleagues who took time to investigate this bit of trivia during their recent Afghan sojourn, "poison", in this context of "poison bullet", refers to the small amount of poison from a bee/wasp or other insect sting. In other words, the Muj were saying the 5.45x39 mm hit like an insect bite, not the hammer of Thor...

http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.ph...&postcount=101
It's at least as effective as the 5.56 round regardless of the "poison bullet" mythology. What can be said is that the 7N6 round is designed to be unstable once it hits something. Does that make it more lethal than 5.56? That's open for debate, it's not something I touched upon in the video.

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I also disagree on the point of a support mechanism. With the immense popularity of the AR-15 platform in the US, parts, ammunition and, well, just everything easily outnumbers AK-74 parts and ammo by a pretty significant factor. That makes it easy to get the equipment and ammo before whatever fantasy SHTF situation as well as after that fantasy SHTF situation.
By fantasy, you mean like Katrina? I would imagine there are quite a few people wishing it were a fantasy.

If your survival plans call for picking up ammo off the street or finding AR15/M16's laying in the streets for spare parts, I would say your plans aren't the best laid.

During Katrina, how many cases of 5.56 do you think the locals found floating down the street? How many AR15/M16's do you think they found lying on the ground?

If you buy a rifle for self defense, you better buy the ammo to go with it. Spare parts? Buy a rifle that's likely not to need them, or if you feel like your gas rings on your AR's bolt will fail you when you least expect it or that you might lose your firing pin retaining pin, buy extras and pack them in your bag.

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And just exactly would you need for that "theoretical" SHTF anyway? Do you really think you're going to be in your anti-zombie bunker cranking off 10,000 rounds of ammo with one rifle? Or is more likely that you'll expend 100 to 150 rounds before the fantasy SHTF is declared over?
No, I don't. What makes you think that I would?

In a scenario like Katrina there's a very high probability your weapon will be exposed to debris and rather hostile conditions. Do you want to worry about the state of your rifle or would you rather focus on other issues and worry less about the condition of the rifle? That's what it boils down to.

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Finally, I'd also argue that it's really about a good rifle example, vs. a bad rifle example. It really should be about having a good rifle period that you can rely on. That is, a good AR-15 that you can count on is of far more value than a bad AK-74 that is unreliable. Likewise, a good AK-74 is worth a lot more than a bad AR-15 that has issues.
You write that script and I'll put it to video.
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  #43  
Old 12-05-2011, 8:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
Pure ignorance.

Please explain to me why the AR-15 is neither "battle-hardened" nor "combat-tested."
ok easy. When I was in Iraq around Fallujah those little things called Sand Storms Happened quite often and would block out the sun. Even with a barrel cover and socks they gave us for our rifle would still jam. Sure you can clean it but for what? CLP made it worse some times and it would be like a soup in the chamber.

At the range on qual days in a controlled environment it would jam at least every other firing line. So what I could shoot the nuts off a nat at 500 yards? Happened alot during Rapid Fire Session even then, still kept jamming on slow fire.

There is a reason why the teach you tap, rack bang... Maybe because they know its going to happen.

Hows that for ignorance and combat tested?
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  #44  
Old 12-05-2011, 9:03 AM
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I wish the unreliable AR myth would just die.

If you said that an AR would have 900 stoppages in 60,000 rounds of sand testing, that works out to 15 per 1,000 rounds. Not a big deal if you clean your gun on occasion and avoid sand.

The only stoppages I've had were directly related to a lack of lube. Solving that is as simple as getting in the habit of keeping your AR wet with lube.

In sand, use your dust cover and make sure you don't let your magazines fill up with sand.

I would treat any rifle that way, AR or AK and I wouldn't expect an AK to cycle if the magazines were full of sand.

An AK may be more tolerant of some sand in the receiver but that's about it.

An AR does have some wear areas like gas rings and bolts but a simple ~5,000 round replacement cycle or carrying a spare takes care of that.

When it comes to accuracy, how exactly do you buy an accurate AK?

It seems to me you put your money down and take your chances.

To buy an accurate AR, you buy an upper or barrel, put the rest together with just about anything you want and bam, you've got an AR that will shoot 1 MOA if the trigger doesn't mess up the shooter that much.

Just Saturday I spoke to a friend and he was telling me "this Arsenal AK100 clone is just as accurate as an M4" but what he didn't mention was that he probably could have bought an M4 clone cheaper.

I like both ARs and AKs but it isn't even like a Ford vs. Chevy debate, it's like a Jeep Rubicon vs. a Subaru WRX STI. The STI is more refined, it will go almost anywhere and it costs a little more. The Rubicon will go some places that the STI can't. Usually it's pretty easy to drive around the places where the STI can't go.
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  #45  
Old 12-05-2011, 9:05 AM
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Originally Posted by wash View Post
I wish the unreliable AR myth would just die.

If you said that an AR would have 900 stoppages in 60,000 rounds of sand testing, that works out to 15 per 1,000 rounds. Not a big deal if you clean your gun on occasion and avoid sand.

Just Saturday I spoke to a friend and he was telling me "this Arsenal AK100 clone is just as accurate as an M4" but what he didn't mention was that he probably could have bought an M4 clone cheaper.

.

15 /1000 is not something I would consider reliable. Thats just me personally, so take it for what it is.

And that AK100 clone would be as accurate as a saiga out of the box, so how much he spent on it doesnt really make a difference.
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  #46  
Old 12-05-2011, 9:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDD View Post
If you look closely in the video, the author is using Mojo peep sights.

Not to stir a debate, but these can be highly inaccurate since the eye is too far from the aperture. He did damn well for using them.
True, at least in my experience as well. I shot much better groups with stock blade sights on my M48 Mauser than with Mojo sight that made groups open up quite a bit.
Good video nonetheless. Much better then others out there.
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  #47  
Old 12-05-2011, 9:41 AM
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Sand testing...

Eliminate the sand and the stoppage rate almost goes to zero if you maintain it a little.

Once again, sand testing will cause problems for anything and that includes AKs.
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  #48  
Old 12-05-2011, 9:47 AM
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When I read about jammed M4s in Iraq or Afghanistan I always wonder whether there were instances where the extra accuracy of the AR saved the day. It seems that in life and death people always focus on the negatives so that the small victories are forgotten by the wayside. And yeah let's give them piston kits already jeez.
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  #49  
Old 12-05-2011, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SKSer45 View Post
ok easy. When I was in Iraq around Fallujah those little things called Sand Storms Happened quite often and would block out the sun. Even with a barrel cover and socks they gave us for our rifle would still jam. Sure you can clean it but for what? CLP made it worse some times and it would be like a soup in the chamber.

At the range on qual days in a controlled environment it would jam at least every other firing line. So what I could shoot the nuts off a nat at 500 yards? Happened alot during Rapid Fire Session even then, still kept jamming on slow fire.

There is a reason why the teach you tap, rack bang... Maybe because they know its going to happen.

Hows that for ignorance and combat tested?
I would urge you to speak with a Mr. Merriam and a Mr. Webster about the meaning of the word tested. After doing such, please reconsider your position about the post you quoted.
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  #50  
Old 12-05-2011, 9:54 AM
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Originally Posted by zfields View Post
15 /1000 is not something I would consider reliable. Thats just me personally, so take it for what it is.

And that AK100 clone would be as accurate as a saiga out of the box, so how much he spent on it doesnt really make a difference.
I have shot AR's with FTF after 40rds! The AR's were brand new.

So, I would have to agree with you.

Saiga $299, average AR to build $700. Like I have have always said, Saiga is #1, the struggle for 2nd place continues...
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  #51  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
While I agree for the most part, there are those that have had very different experiences.

http://www.hotsr.com/news/WireHeadli...ght-rai-33.php
The article you linked is very vague. It seems to reference the battle at Wanat.

If memory serves, the soldier's M4 had failed in part because he was doing non-stop mag dumps through it as if it were a squad automatic weapon. Am I correct or am I recalling a different firefight?
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  #52  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:02 AM
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I have shot AR's with FTF after 40rds! The AR's were brand new.

So, I would have to agree with you.

Saiga $299, average AR to build $700. Like I have have always said, Saiga is #1, the struggle for 2nd place continues...
And I've shot AKs that didn't run worth a damn. Your sample size of two is statistically inconsequential. The truth is that all modern firearm platforms are plenty reliable when built correctly by a reputable manufacturer.

I can't help but wonder about people who would rather argue minute differences in equipment than discuss training and tactics.
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  #53  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
And I've shot AKs that didn't run worth a damn. Your sample size of two is statistically inconsequential. The truth is that all modern firearm platforms are plenty reliable when built correctly by a reputable manufacturer.

I can't help but wonder about people who would rather argue minute differences in equipment than discuss training and tactics.
Your big words, and your small stab at my comment makes no difference. Botton line that was my personal experience.

Personally, if you like your AR, go at it. I think it's great, the people who are loading up with AR's for the SHTF. I'll factor in the amount of people with AR's who have a cleaning kit in their BOB, just makes my job easier.
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  #54  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:15 AM
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If I could get a good reliable M4 for $499 and surplus 5.56 for $130 per thousand I might go with the M4, but I can't.

Saiga in 5.45 --------$299
Dealer fee+DROS -----$50
Bullet Guide-----------$25
Conversion kit -------$125
====================
$499


Show me the M4 that I can get for $499 and the $130 per thousand mil-surp 5.56...
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  #55  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Lone_Gunman View Post
If I could get a good reliable M4 for $499 and surplus 5.56 for $130 per thousand I might go with the M4, but I can't.

Saiga in 5.45 --------$299
Dealer fee+DROS ----$50
Bullet Guide----------$25
Conversion kit -------$125
Reliable--------------$ priceless
====================
$499


Show me the M4 that I can get for $499 and the $130 per thousand mil-surp 5.56...
Fixed it for ya
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  #56  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:18 AM
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You know, you AR guys make me lmfao! The op truly didnt say nothing bad about the AR, he just said he'd rather have an ak74 in a crisis. His test blatantly showed the AR more accurate of an inch to the ak74, I personally can pull chest sized shots at 300 yards standing with iron sights with an ak74, and thats more than enough accurate for me.
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  #57  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:19 AM
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Fixed it for ya
Word!
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  #58  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:35 AM
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Perspective and context are important, and often lost. The result is a failure to make apples-vs-apples comparisons. The OP's video and subsequent posts make perfect sense within their ostensible contexts, and given the limitations of his test methodology. He described what he was using, and how he used it, and what results he got ... can't get much more direct and honest than that. Most of the criticisms offered are possible only because he provided a complete set of information, rather than any attempt at obfuscation on his part.

That being said, context often gets lost when applying such information in a general sense. A lot of actual, serious testing has been done of the AR/M4 platform in very (more or less) public ways. This gives us useful data points for the specific models tested under the specific use-cases tested. If you intend to use the specific models tested in those kinds of uses cases ... bingo, you have your data!

What this means in a general AR-vs-AK comparison is quite a bit less certain. "AR" can mean a lot of different things, and "AK" can certainly mean a few as well. There are $600 AR rifles out there and $1700 AK rifles. There are $300 Saigas and $2300 LWRCs. Are we talking WASR vs. Adcor BEAR or M&P15 Sport vs. a Fullerized SGL-31? The details matter, IMHO.

Adding difficultly to the mix is that the AK reputation for reliability is based almost entirely upon anecdotal reports. If someone's AR dies on them, and they do a battlefield pickup of an AK which then save their lives ... hmm, that's a powerful emotional story but hardly equates to useful data. Lots of broken AKs are found next to dead guys too, but we don't tend to worry about when the other guy has an issue as much. There are no generally available verified reports of tests performed on the AK platform by independent labs. We have the very public comblock propaganda, but hopefully we have the sense to see that as no more reliable than some AR manufacturers ad slick in a magazine. I am told that information from the Kremlin Papers indicated that the Soviets (very quietly) admitted to each other that the AK was - technically - a "piece of crap" compared to the AR platform, but that it was an excellent design given their own unique economic, industrial and political constraints. If you can build 2-3 "pretty good" rifles for less than the comparable price of 1 "really good" rifle ... whose to say that's a bad decision for outfitting a large military?

I don't have good reason to believe that "an AK" is generally more/less accurate/reliable than "an AR" unless I know which particular AR and AK are being discussed. I tend to think of both as "pretty damned good thanks ... I want a couple more, lol". My preference is for the AK manual-of-arms, but conversely I prefer the modularity of the AR ... if only one rifle had it all, sigh.
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  #59  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:53 AM
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A bottle of Breakfree CLP, a bore snake and a rag/piece of a shirt/napkin will solve just about any sand related stoppage on an AR (sand in the gas tube being the exception but you shouldn't get that).

So lube, a bore snake and maybe a spare bolt is all you need to stay in the fight unless you have a non-sand related malfunction.

If you really wanted to be ready for everything, carry an extra hammer spring, trigger spring, hammer, trigger, disconnector, disconector spring and a trigger pin.

That should cover everything and with the lube it's maybe 6oz of repair kit.

The AK does have the advantage that if you break a hammer pin, you can replace it with a stick.
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  #60  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:54 AM
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As though this topic hasn't been done to death already. Fortunately he was far more pragmatic in appraising the results than many other reviews tend to be.

As mentioned in the video, if you actually have to use a rifle to protect your life from a similarly armed foe, making debilitating hits doesn't demand pinpoint accuracy. Sacrificing a little accuracy for some increase in reliability without adding substantially to the maintenance required is an important consideration.

However, none of this really seems to matter.

The SHTF type scenarios are very few and far between, most rifles of this type are used for target shooting and occasional hunting (where the caliber is permitted for the game being hunted) and people like what they like and dismiss any alternative that goes outside their familiarity, comfort zone or personal experiences.

There is no "best" there is only the appropriate tool for the task at hand. Both rifles in the review have compromises, some matter in one set of conditions and don't in others. Based on the typical uses being confined to the rifle range (and probably nowhere else) accuracy is what tends to matter and get nods of approval when you keep your groups tight. It's just not that impressive in the rifle range context to declare you managed a 3.5" group at 100 meters, but you haven't cleaned your rifle in the last 10 years/4500 rounds!

I'd still rather have a shotgun for shorter range personal protection than anything else. For more distant ranges, hunkered down with good visibility beyond 300 meters, why wouldn't I prefer a scoped rifle in .308/7.62x51 mm if I don't even have to carry it very far? In most parts of the world, a 10-11 lb. rifle is still fairly commonplace (particularly where the FAL and G3 tend to be fielded). If you aren't engaged in close quarters, house to house fighting, the short barreled light caliber carbine probably isn't the ideal implement.

It can be easy to forget given the changes in military doctrine over the decades that the whole reason for going from full power battle rifles to these small caliber intermediate arms was not for use primarily in semiautomatic modes of fire. Downscaling larger .30 caliber rifle rounds was meant to increase rate of fire and to provide more ammunition to a soldiers load for a given mass. Short bursts of fire at closer ranges were intended to increase hit probability and complex formula were presented to determine the optimal number of rounds per burst (which is where that latched 3 round burst mode that replaced full auto in weapons like the M16A2 came from).

If either of these rifles were intended primarily for carefully aimed semi-automatic fire, a larger and more powerful cartridge could have been used. The Russians and Eastern European nations were quite capable of producing accurate arms if the requirements demanded it, that was not what the AK was intended for and it's tolerances reflect a design favoring full automatic bursts rather than carefully aimed single fire.

Few armies still train soldiers to fire from the hip or chest level on the move (the original method of volley fire the "assault rifle" was intended for), the design of the section/squad has changed and higher value is placed on marksmanship than on hit probability through dispersion. The intermediate cartridge rifles are fun to shoot, but if semiautomatic is the only supported mode of fire, ranges exceed 400 meters and you might like to put meat on the table with the same rifle, you might be better served with a rifle more closely matching the "battle rifle" (or just a fairly ordinary semi-automatic hunting rifle) profile than either the AK or AR in their more typical intermediate caliber chamberings.

R

Last edited by Richard Erichsen; 12-05-2011 at 11:21 AM..
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  #61  
Old 12-05-2011, 11:30 AM
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Well lets agree to the fact that if s really did htf most of us would be on the same side so AR guys can take care of the 3000yard eyeball shots and us ak guys can hold the fort when the frogs are spraying sand everywhere!
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:56 AM
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  #63  
Old 12-05-2011, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NorCalK9.com View Post
Well lets agree to the fact that if s really did htf most of us would be on the same side so AR guys can take care of the 3000yard eyeball shots and us ak guys can hold the fort when the frogs are spraying sand everywhere!
Don't count on it. Would you really trust an armed stranger walking in your general direction if the "S" really had hit the proverbial fan?

R
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
I would urge you to speak with a Mr. Merriam and a Mr. Webster about the meaning of the word tested. After doing such, please reconsider your position about the post you quoted.
sure after a few beers I would love too. Now don't get me wrong I knew a bunch of service men that lived and breathed their M-16's A2/A4s and it did save their life. They swore and hey why not? Made in the USA, One shot one kill, etc... but nothing in the world is more scary when an AK-47 is pointed in your direction and you hear that distinctive sound. I mean just the psychological effect on that weapon gives the AK an edge.

Whats worse is even if you have body armor on you, you know that 7.62X39 is going to knock you on your *** and break some bones. That's just fact with that weapon.

Now don't get me wrong being a former Marine and having 20 rounds of 5.56 in your m-16 at your finger tips is damn good feeling but there was always that fact...not if my rifle jams but when?
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:40 PM
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No no. I said REAL motorcycle.
Naaa.... bro, I think you mean this one ...




.... :P
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Old 12-05-2011, 1:19 PM
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Can't we all get along?

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Old 12-05-2011, 1:26 PM
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Guys. We live in Americia. Buy them both.
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Old 12-05-2011, 3:42 PM
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AK accuracy is so underrated and very understated. I have both and will go AK overall but AR for accuracy.
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Old 12-05-2011, 4:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
The article you linked is very vague. It seems to reference the battle at Wanat.

If memory serves, the soldier's M4 had failed in part because he was doing non-stop mag dumps through it as if it were a squad automatic weapon. Am I correct or am I recalling a different firefight?
Yes, that's my understanding as well. Proceedings magazine did a very good piece encapsulating different studies about the battle and the accompanying equipment problems encountered. Give a read when you get a chance:

http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...happened-wanat

There's a little blurb that talks about RPM:

According to U.S. Special Operations Command's SOPMOD (special operations peculiar modification) program office, "The current sustained rate of fire for the M4A1 Carbine is 15 rounds per minute and a maximum rate of 90 [rounds] per minute for short periods in an emergency."18 Firing the M4 carbine at cyclic rates of fire of 90 to 150 rounds per minute, "which is the rate of suppressive fire associated with machine guns" for prolonged periods leads to rapid heating of the barrel and possible failure.19

Tests conducted by both the Army and by Colt indicate that "exceeding the sustained rate of fire of 15 rounds per minute will result in the weapon 'cooking off' rounds after approximately 170 rounds have been fired." If the maximum rate of fire of 90 rounds per minute "is maintained for about 540 rounds, the barrel softens and gas starts to blow by the bullet, changing the sound and size of the muzzle blast." If the operator continues to fire the weapon, the barrel will begin to droop, and finally, at about 596 rounds, the barrel will burst.
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Old 12-05-2011, 4:48 PM
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Have you actually ever shot living flesh with the 5.45? I have. It does not leave nasty wounds. Quite to the contrary a 22lr Hp causes more damage than the 5.45, because it just punches nice neat holes without expanding or breaking up. It does have a habit of changing direction of travel and does yaw some, but causes little damage, especially compared to the 5.56. It is a sleek bullet with a decent bc, but it is not flatter shooting than standard 5.55.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamluke View Post
Good video....

The AR 15 round has a better chance of keeping as straight of a line firing thru light obstacles, such as brush, wooden sticks, foliage etc... than that nasty 5.45 round.
Its because of the ballistic design of the round, and no fault of the AK itself!
The air pocket/cavity inside the nose of the round pushes the heavier/denser rear forward upon hitting brush & the round yaws & over steers, changing direction.
This design causes horrific wounds when impacting living tissues BTW! So IMO, the 5.45 needs a clear line of sight to target!

Furthermore, the light weight of this round gives it a flat trajectory, arguably flatter than the M4. The air pocket contribute to this as the round begins to sail/lift nearing 2/3 of its terminal velocity, with the air slightly lifting the lighter nose up as the round pushes forward. Targets hit at these further stages experienced a slashing wound like this: ( / )

I'd be curious to have the OP put these things to fire thru sick brushes or foliage, I bet the M4 will be more accurate!

So, depending on which environment in SHTF situation, If I had to choose between the two, I'd pick me up an M4/AR15 rifle over the AK74. Just because of this nasty round it uses!

My two cents ....
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Old 12-05-2011, 4:55 PM
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Old 12-05-2011, 5:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicoredneck View Post
Have you actually ever shot living flesh with the 5.45? I have. It does not leave nasty wounds. Quite to the contrary a 22lr Hp causes more damage than the 5.45, because it just punches nice neat holes without expanding or breaking up. It does have a habit of changing direction of travel and does yaw some, but causes little damage, especially compared to the 5.56. It is a sleek bullet with a decent bc, but it is not flatter shooting than standard 5.55.
As a matter of fact I have...
Ive hit coyote thru ribcage and the opposite side was ripped from top to bottom, ive shot squirrels with 545 cuts in half, ive shot pumpking nasty exit hole, ive never shot a human with 545 though and I dont particularly want to.
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Old 12-05-2011, 5:18 PM
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Guys. We live in Americia. Buy them both.
Consumerism trumps all!

The best way to settle the debate is to not make it a debate at all and buy both!
(Im guilty of this)
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  #74  
Old 12-05-2011, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NorCalK9.com View Post
As a matter of fact I have...
Ive hit coyote thru ribcage and the opposite side was ripped from top to bottom, ive shot squirrels with 545 cuts in half, ive shot pumpking nasty exit hole, ive never shot a human with 545 though and I dont particularly want to.
Hmmm never shot a rifle with a 5.45 but a 5.56 I have. Is there a real difference in recoil and muzzle velocity in those rounds?
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Old 12-05-2011, 5:30 PM
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Recoil a little less in ak74 due to good muzzle brake.
556 fragments at times depending on velocity n barrel size
Both velocity is almost equal 556 is a little faster I believe
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  #76  
Old 12-05-2011, 5:31 PM
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AR IMO is not more accurate, its just more precise. AKs can easily pull kill shots at large ranges, idk about you guys but that's pretty accurate to me. Yea you wont put a nice hole next to the other nice hole like an AR, but do you really HAVE to put another nice hole next to the other nice hole in order to take out a target? Don't think so.
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Old 12-05-2011, 5:59 PM
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After reading 5.56 (M193) and 5.45 (7N1) reports in gel, I've came to the following conclusion:
At point blank range, the M193 will create a larger cavity, up to twice as large as 7N6.
At ranges around 100+ yards, both rounds will create roughly the same sized cavity.
7N6 actually doesn't hit it's stride until around 100 yards - it's cavity at point blank range is smaller at 10 yards then 100. Does it make it bad? No, the cavity is still 3 times that of a .45 round. I doubt that most people would scoff at the stopping power of 3 .45 rounds, if placed to the torso.
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Old 12-05-2011, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicoredneck View Post
Have you actually ever shot living flesh with the 5.45? I have. It does not leave nasty wounds. Quite to the contrary a 22lr Hp causes more damage than the 5.45, because it just punches nice neat holes without expanding or breaking up.
Dude, from which AIRSOFT AK74 rifle did you get your data?!!
What you stated negates even the US army Ballistic tests, and the Soviets own ballistic tests. I've seen first hand what this round can do recently to anti regime protesters in Syria, the wounds are freaking horrific....

And just to drag your sorry ignorant a#$@$ in the mud a tad bit (cause I'm being kind)...here's a freaking EXPERT video for you...

http://youtu.be/2S1y7Bz3IuY?t=33m40s

Had enough ..... ..... cause I'm itching for more ...

............

Last edited by Mamluke; 12-05-2011 at 6:18 PM..
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  #79  
Old 12-05-2011, 6:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
No no. I said REAL motorcycle.
Psh, Italian bikes...

I'd rather by a lightly used R1 or Gixxer 1000 on Craigslist, dump like 2k into it to make it a bad *** track bike and STILL be half the price of that Ducati.

I'm just glad you weren't talking about harleys though... don't even get me started on them.
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Old 12-05-2011, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamluke View Post
Dude, from which AIRSOFT AK74 rifle did you get your data?!!
What you stated negates even the US army Ballistic tests, and the Soviets own ballistic tests. I've seen first hand what this round can do recently to anti regime protesters in Syria, the wounds are freaking horrific....

And just to drag your sorry ignorant a#$@$ in the mud a tad bit (cause I'm being kind)...here's a freaking EXPERT video for you...

http://youtu.be/2S1y7Bz3IuY?t=33m40s

Had enough ..... ..... cause I'm itching for more ...

............
sweet! lol I remember watching that episode Ahhh that was when the history channel was good! Nice find bro
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