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  #1  
Old 07-21-2011, 5:46 PM
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Default Solar Tactical Legality?

Hey all,
I went to a shop in Glendora, Gunslingers, to do a PPT on a few lowers. I had an M16A1 built on one of the lowers and had...will still have, a Solar Tactical wrap on the grip. They have no issues with the PPT and DROS of the parts, actually was very good, Gunrunners wants $125 PER lower to DROS them!, the owner said he had an issue with the wrap. Said it did not make the firearm Ca. legal. I didn't want to ruffle his feathers, so I installed a BB real quick. No biggie, however, I went to the ST site and they have no link to a letter or anything stating that their wrap is okiedokied by the DOJ. I know by the letter of the law it is good to go, no way to get your thumb around the grip. I just don't want to go somewhere and have someone think the same thing, take the weapon and then have a giant legal issue on my hands. I e-mailed ST and called them. Mark sent an e-mail asking about the shop and directed me to Cagunlaws. I have yet to speak to Mark directly to get his take on it. Anyone else had this issue pop up? I just want DOJ ok to use it.
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Old 07-21-2011, 5:50 PM
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Won't get it anytime soon....just have a copy of the flow chart...or do what I did and remove the grip to sell the weapon... Lots of gun stores sell Ak's without grips.
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Old 07-21-2011, 5:56 PM
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That's already in the range box and the pockets behind the truck seats.
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Old 07-21-2011, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by m35a2 View Post
Hey all,
I went to a shop in Glendora, Gunslingers, to do a PPT on a few lowers. I had an M16A1 built on one of the lowers and had...will still have, a Solar Tactical wrap on the grip. They have no issues with the PPT and DROS of the parts, actually was very good, Gunrunners wants $125 PER lower to DROS them!, the owner said he had an issue with the wrap. Said it did not make the firearm Ca. legal. I didn't want to ruffle his feathers, so I installed a BB real quick. No biggie, however, I went to the ST site and they have no link to a letter or anything stating that their wrap is okiedokied by the DOJ. I know by the letter of the law it is good to go, no way to get your thumb around the grip. I just don't want to go somewhere and have someone think the same thing, take the weapon and then have a giant legal issue on my hands. I e-mailed ST and called them. Mark sent an e-mail asking about the shop and directed me to Cagunlaws. I have yet to speak to Mark directly to get his take on it. Anyone else had this issue pop up? I just want DOJ ok to use it.
there is no letter confirming legality. CADOJ won't issue any. But more importantly, if you were doing a PPT (where both parties were CA-residents and the lowers were delivered to the FFL in person, not shipped), then the FFL is mandated by law to charge no more than $35 total ($25 DROS + $10 dealer fee). To charge $125 per lower is illegal in a PPT transfer. But if they were shipped to the FFL, or the seller was not a CA-resident, then it isn't a PPT, and the FFL can charge whatever he wants.
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Old 07-21-2011, 6:05 PM
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Bullet buttons and other magazine locks have not been officially aproved by Ca DOJ!

It sure sounds like you've found some bad FFLs. If you were really doing PPTs and an FFL quoted you $125 per gun, he is a criminal! There is a legal limit of $35 which a FFL can charge for a PPT. There can not be any extra charges added on either! The FFL who had an issue with a lower (assuming no upper) with a grip wrap is also a complete moron. A lower, even with a PG, can not be an AW until a semi auto centerfire upper or a pistol upper is attached to it. A complete lower does not need a BB, grip wrap or anything to be legal. There is no way to tell if you are going to use it on a rimfire rifle, bolt action rifle, etc. I suggest finding FFLs who know there stuff instead of the ones you are gravitating to.
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  #6  
Old 07-21-2011, 6:13 PM
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What CSA said, S-can that FFL.
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Old 07-21-2011, 6:17 PM
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Seller and buyer were present.
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Old 07-21-2011, 6:41 PM
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Seller and buyer were present.
in that case, I'd be more concerned about the FFL ripping you off for more than $200 dollars (few lowers x $125 - $35 max allowable), committing a crime in the process, than his ignorance about the legality about the grip wrap.
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  #9  
Old 07-21-2011, 7:08 PM
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No, no, you got it wrong, The FFL that charges the buck and a quarter did not get my business. I know it is not right to charge that amt. I have zero issues with the Glendora FFL, $35 for two lowers, I am just concerned about the ST wrap. The FFL is very nice, he just had thoughts about the wrap. My concern is that since there is no DOJ letter, when I am out playing, someone that can make my life hard will have the same thought and make issues for me. The Glendora place is gtg in my opinion.
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Old 07-21-2011, 7:12 PM
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No, no, you got it wrong, The FFL that charges the buck and a quarter did not get my business. I know it is not right to charge that amt. I have zero issues with the Glendora FFL, $35 for two lowers, I am just concerned about the ST wrap. The FFL is very nice, he just had thoughts about the wrap. My concern is that since there is no DOJ letter, when I am out playing, someone that can make my life hard will have the same thought and make issues for me. The Glendora place is gtg in my opinion.
The same would be true of a bullet button or any other type of featureless configuration.

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Old 07-21-2011, 7:15 PM
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ok, got ya, your OP was confusing there, missed that you mentioned two different FFLs, Gunrunners and Gunslingers.

If you have concerns about the ST wrap not having a letter, don't you have any concerns with Assualt Planet not having a letter for their Bullet Button design?
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  #12  
Old 07-21-2011, 7:25 PM
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ok, got ya, your OP was confusing there, missed that you mentioned two different FFLs, Gunrunners and Gunslingers.

If you have concerns about the ST wrap not having a letter, don't you have any concerns with Assualt Planet not having a letter for their Bullet Button design?
Never thought about it like that. It is just SOP for most all AR platforms to have a BB.

Maybe when I get the toys outa jail I'll take a flow chart to them.
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Old 07-21-2011, 7:33 PM
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Never thought about it like that. It is just SOP for most all AR platforms to have a BB.

Maybe when I get the toys outa jail I'll take a flow chart to them.
Really? Since when? I have one bolt action 50BMG on a FAB10 lower, one lower with a MM on it, one lower with a dedicated rimfire upper on it, a FAB10 lower, a U15 build, a lower with an old P50 on it, one with a ST grip wrap and "several" more stripped or built up lowers (without uppers). I've never owned an AR 15 lower with one of Darin's bullet buttons (the only true "bullet button) or any of the many other tool release, magazine locks out there. So, why do you think that it's SOP for an AR type rifle to have a "BB" on it?
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2011, 8:08 PM
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Because some like the cool factor instead of the practicality.

I feel the same way about AKs---featureless or go home!
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Old 07-21-2011, 8:18 PM
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Is there a way to get the flow chart updated to actually same grip wraps on it? It lists the monsterman grip by name.
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Old 07-21-2011, 9:26 PM
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So, why do you think that it's SOP for an AR type rifle to have a "BB" on it?
cause they dont look so great if you have a shark fin on it.
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Old 07-21-2011, 9:31 PM
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Originally Posted by m35a2 View Post
Hey all,
I went to a shop in Glendora, Gunslingers, to do a PPT on a few lowers. I had an M16A1 built on one of the lowers and had...will still have, a Solar Tactical wrap on the grip. They have no issues with the PPT and DROS of the parts, actually was very good, Gunrunners wants $125 PER lower to DROS them!, the owner said he had an issue with the wrap. Said it did not make the firearm Ca. legal....
wait wtfffff...... "Gee this might be illegal, so I'm gonna have to charge you extra!!"
What a FUD-spreading crook. (assuming things really went down as you describe). I'd go back and advise that guy that you learned that there shall not be a charge above $35 for DROS, and that he can go pound sand.
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Old 07-21-2011, 9:36 PM
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wait wait wait...GunRunners is Duarte is charging 125 for a PPT??? IIRC, they are, or at least used to be a calguns sponsor, and I as well as many other calgunners, have done business with them.
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Old 07-22-2011, 4:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Really? Since when? I have one bolt action 50BMG on a FAB10 lower, one lower with a MM on it, one lower with a dedicated rimfire upper on it, a FAB10 lower, a U15 build, a lower with an old P50 on it, one with a ST grip wrap and "several" more stripped or built up lowers (without uppers). I've never owned an AR 15 lower with one of Darin's bullet buttons (the only true "bullet button) or any of the many other tool release, magazine locks out there. So, why do you think that it's SOP for an AR type rifle to have a "BB" on it?
Hence the word "most".

And yup Gunrunners is $125 for a FTF, PPT on an AR. Be it a lower or complete. Came directly from Bruce. Called twice to make sure I wasn't hearing things. Also, Bain and Davis won't touch an AR for x-fer or to accept from out of state.

Funny things, everyones interpretation of the laws. I bought the ST wraps from the place that charges an out of line price to x-fer but is AR friendly and the place that charges a normal fee for the x-fer doesn't like the ST wrap.
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Old 07-22-2011, 6:07 AM
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cause they dont look so great if you have a shark fin on it.
Ah, the old "form over function" arguement. I guess some people would rather be seen with a hot blonde who won't put out than with a "Neil 8" who will make you .
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Old 07-22-2011, 6:13 AM
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Originally Posted by m35a2 View Post
Hey all,
I went to a shop in Glendora, Gunslingers, to do a PPT on a few lowers. I had an M16A1 built on one of the lowers and had...will still have, a Solar Tactical wrap on the grip. They have no issues with the PPT and DROS of the parts, actually was very good, Gunrunners wants $125 PER lower to DROS them!, the owner said he had an issue with the wrap. Said it did not make the firearm Ca. legal. I didn't want to ruffle his feathers, so I installed a BB real quick. No biggie, however, I went to the ST site and they have no link to a letter or anything stating that their wrap is okiedokied by the DOJ. I know by the letter of the law it is good to go, no way to get your thumb around the grip. I just don't want to go somewhere and have someone think the same thing, take the weapon and then have a giant legal issue on my hands. I e-mailed ST and called them. Mark sent an e-mail asking about the shop and directed me to Cagunlaws. I have yet to speak to Mark directly to get his take on it. Anyone else had this issue pop up? I just want DOJ ok to use it.
This is slightly OT but pertinent. My local DA had stated he considered any rifle outfitted with a MMG or ST type device to still be an AW. It took me alot of 'I brought you guys some coffee, let's sit down and go over this flow chart' before they relented and now recognize it as being legal. If I wasn't an LEO I wouldn't of had the access I did to keep pushing the issue in a friendly but persistent manner. While it doesn't make them any less wrong, it could certainly get you in a bit of a wreck if you have people ignorant of the law at the helm of making charging decisions.

PS, i wouldn't of had a nice big stack of glossy flow charts if it wasn't for Jason from Cal-guns mailing them to me when i first joined this site to try to get a handle on what is and isn't legal. Besides getting lit up when I first joined for being an LEO and not knowing the law, it's been a great resource and I've tried to return the favor by educating others with Cal guns' supplied fliers.

Last edited by deadcoyote; 07-22-2011 at 6:22 AM..
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Old 07-22-2011, 6:26 AM
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If there are still any questions about the legality of various featureless pistol-grip replacements, I suggest reading the testimony of Frank Navarro, CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms Special Agent (CA DOJ's Assault Weapons ID Expert), in the case of People vs. Haack and Haack, California County of Tulare Superior Court, 3 November 2010. We'll probably never get an endorsement from the DOJ on these products but this agent's testimony is the next best thing.
-Mark
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Old 07-22-2011, 6:31 AM
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Originally Posted by deadcoyote View Post
This is slightly OT but pertinent. My local DA had stated he considered any rifle outfitted with a MMG or ST type device to still be an AW. It took me alot of 'I brought you guys some coffee, let's sit down and go over this flow chart' before they relented and now recognize it as being legal. If I wasn't an LEO I wouldn't of had the access I did to keep pushing the issue in a friendly but persistent manner. While it doesn't make them any less wrong, it could certainly get you in a bit of a wreck if you have people ignorant of the law at the helm of making charging decisions.

PS, i wouldn't of had a nice big stack of glossy flow charts if it wasn't for Jason from Cal-guns mailing them to me when i first joined this site to try to get a handle on what is and isn't legal. Besides getting lit up when I first joined for being an LEO and not knowing the law, it's been a great resource and I've tried to return the favor by educating others with Cal guns' supplied fliers.
Thank you!
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Old 07-22-2011, 6:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Exile Machine View Post
If there are still any questions about the legality of various featureless pistol-grip replacements, I suggest reading the testimony of Frank Navarro, CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms Special Agent (CA DOJ's Assault Weapons ID Expert), in the case of People vs. Haack and Haack, California County of Tulare Superior Court, 3 November 2010. We'll probably never get an endorsement from the DOJ on these products but this agent's testimony is the next best thing.
-Mark
if you are gonna post that, you should probably also post how they can order the transcripts, and let them know how much it is gonna cost them to get those transcripts.
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Old 07-22-2011, 6:47 AM
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Ah, the old "form over function" arguement. I guess some people would rather be seen with a hot blonde who won't put out than with a "Neil 8" who will make you .
Sigged my good man.
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Ah, the old "form over function" argument. I guess some people would rather be seen with a hot blonde who won't put out than with a "Neil 8" who will make you .
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Old 07-22-2011, 7:07 AM
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if you are gonna post that, you should probably also post how they can order the transcripts, and let them know how much it is gonna cost them to get those transcripts.
Here you go:

http://www.tularesuperiorcourt.ca.go....htm#Reporters

I paid about $57 for my copy. Yes it was worth it. No I am not allowed to share my copy or post it. Apparently the court reporters in CA make their money selling these copies.

You can contact the court reporter, Cindy M. Holway, CSR, by phone at 559-730-5000 X1138 and by email at cholway@hotmail.com.

-Mark
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Old 07-22-2011, 9:23 AM
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If that's the shop I'm thinking of, that guy at Glendora is an ahole and thinks he knows more than he does.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:55 AM
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Here you go:

http://www.tularesuperiorcourt.ca.go....htm#Reporters

I paid about $57 for my copy. Yes it was worth it. No I am not allowed to share my copy or post it. Apparently the court reporters in CA make their money selling these copies.

You can contact the court reporter, Cindy M. Holway, CSR, by phone at 559-730-5000 X1138 and by email at cholway@hotmail.com.

-Mark
thanks,
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:50 AM
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$57 for a transcript of any proceeding is dirt cheap, What I just paid for my last one would easily buy you a nice AR...
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Old 07-22-2011, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Ah, the old "form over function" arguement. I guess some people would rather be seen with a hot blonde who won't put out than with a "Neil 8" who will make you .
a shark fin is functional? no, not being able to get my thumb around a grip is not functional. hot blonde that I have proper control over will take some charming or "featureless girl" that will put out. sorry not all of us want to hold our ars, and aks like we are missing thumbs.
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Old 07-22-2011, 1:55 PM
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sorry not all of us want to hold our ars, and aks like we are missing thumbs.
We have an opening for you in our Marketing Dept, PM if interested.

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Old 07-22-2011, 2:06 PM
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a shark fin is functional? no, not being able to get my thumb around a grip is not functional. hot blonde that I have proper control over will take some charming or "featureless girl" that will put out. sorry not all of us want to hold our ars, and aks like we are missing thumbs.
I can still shoot guns with MMGs or grip wraps. In fact, I think that they legally function much better with my old magazines than a 10 round fixed magazine rifle can ever function. But, I guess that's just my opinion. I don't need or require a pistol grip in order to shoot any rifle. BTW, if you really need to wrap your thumb around something.........................J/K. I suggest looking at the Exile machine grips or the old U15 stocks. If you feel the need to use an AK platform, there are always stock Saigas available too.
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Last edited by CSACANNONEER; 07-22-2011 at 2:08 PM..
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Old 07-22-2011, 2:57 PM
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If its a lower without an upper installed, there should be no issue with whatever grip or mag release is on it. You can just as easily install a rimfire or bolt action upper as you would a centerfire semi-auto upper, and worrying about grips or BB's only applies when using the centerfire semi-auto upper. I would just completely ignore the legal advice these morons were spreading.

Last edited by stix213; 07-22-2011 at 3:00 PM..
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Old 07-22-2011, 5:08 PM
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If that's the shop I'm thinking of, that guy at Glendora is an ahole and thinks he knows more than he does.
If you are talking about Gunslingers, now on Grand just north of Arrow, you might be interested to know that the owner is a long-time well respected member here and former LEO, SVT-40.
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Old 07-22-2011, 5:27 PM
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If you are talking about Gunslingers, now on Grand just north of Arrow, you might be interested to know that the owner is a long-time well respected member here and former LEO, SVT-40.
This guy was not only extremely rude, but didn't seem to know jack about OLL and the like, so doesn't sound like anyone who would frequent these parts. Don't know if it was the owner or just a clerk, though.
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Old 07-22-2011, 5:30 PM
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This guy was not only extremely rude, but didn't seem to know jack about OLL and the like, so doesn't sound like anyone who would frequent these parts. Don't know if it was the owner or just a clerk, though.
Gunslingers deals primarily in C&R, but I know they sell/consign/auction SKS and I'm pretty sure I've seen AK's on the racks that were not GSG's.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-22-2011, 5:30 PM
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If you had an M16A1 replica, did you have an M16A1 birdcage on it?

If you did, then it wasn't a featureless rifle, and the fin wouldn't have done any good. That may have been what he was refering to.
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Old 07-22-2011, 5:31 PM
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If you had an M16A1 replica, did you have an M16A1 birdcage on it?
A1 had a birdcage?

I thought it had the "treble hook" that liked to blow your cover by snagging every branch you walked past
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-22-2011, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
A1 had a birdcage?

I thought it had the "treble hook" that liked to blow your cover by snagging every branch you walked past
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=127

The traditional A1 had the forward assist and the squirlcage with the even spacing on the flash hider. (A2 omitted bottom slots)

M16A1



M16

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Old 07-22-2011, 5:39 PM
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Either way, its a flash hider and counts as a feature
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