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  #1  
Old 07-12-2011, 7:27 AM
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Default What is legal to ship into California?

Again, this has been created to add onto the FFL FAQ Master Thread.

For you out of state dealers wondering what you can and cannot ship into California, hopefully this will assist you.

First, assume everything is legal to ship to California. Our legislators want you to assume the opposite. Stop doing what they want as it simply isn't true.

Now that you assume everything is legal to ship to CA, let's go over the much smaller list of what isn't legal to ship to CA.

First, assault weapons cannot come into the state unless shipped to a specified assault weapons dealer. Most 01 FFLs are not assault weapons dealers. They will have a specific assault weapons permit license.

Here are the definitions of an assault weapon.

Quote:
12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms:
(a) All of the following specified rifles:
(1) All AK series including, but not limited to, the models identified as follows:
(A) Made in China AK, AKM, AKS, AK47, AK47S, 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(B) Norinco 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(C) Poly Technologies AKS and AK47.
(D) MAADI AK47 and ARM.
(2) UZI and Galil.
(3) Beretta AR-70.
(4) CETME Sporter.
(5) Colt AR-15 series.
(6) Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1, Max 2, AR 100, and AR110 C.
(7) Fabrique Nationale FAL, LAR, FNC, 308 Match, and Sporter.
(8) MAS 223.
(9) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, and HK-PSG-1
(10) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M11.
(11) SKS with detachable magazine.
(12) SIG AMT, PE-57, SG 550, and SG 551.
(13) Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48.
(14) Sterling MK-6.
(15) Steyer AUG.
(16) Valmet M62S, M71S, and M78S.
(17) Armalite AR-180.
(18) Bushmaster Assault Rifle.
(19) Calico M-900.
(20) J&R ENG M-68.
(21) Weaver Arms Nighthawk.
(b) All of the following specified pistols:
(1) UZI.
(2) Encom MP-9 and MP-45.
(3) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M-11.
(C) Advance Armament Inc. M-11.
(D) Military Armament Corp. Ingram M-11.
(4) Intratec TEC-9.
(5) Sites Spectre.
(6) Sterling MK-7.
(7) Calico M-950.
(8) Bushmaster Pistol.
(c) All of the following specified shotguns:
(1) Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12.
(2) Striker 12.
(3) The Streetsweeper type S/S Inc. SS/12.
There is also the Kasler List of specified make and models of AK/AR series weapons. If it is on this list, it cannot be possessed in CA except by assault weapons dealers. They can only sell them to law enforcement.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf

However, if the firearm is not on either of the two lists above, it can be legally owned in the state given the firearm complies with the following rules.

Quote:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
(b) The Legislature finds a significant public purpose in exempting pistols that are designed expressly for use in Olympic target shooting events. Therefore, those pistols that are sanctioned by the International Olympic Committee and by USA Shooting, the national governing body for international shooting competition in the United States, and that are used for Olympic target shooting purposes at the time the act adding this subdivision is enacted, and that would otherwise fall within the definition of "assault weapon" pursuant to this section are exempt, as provided in subdivision (c).
(c) "Assault weapon" does not include either of the following:
(1) Any antique firearm.
(2) Any of the following pistols, because they are consistent with the significant public purpose expressed in subdivision (b):
MANUFACTURER MODEL CALIBER
BENELLI MP90 .22LR
BENELLI MP90 .32 S&W LONG
BENELLI MP95 .22LR
BENELLI MP95 .32 S&W LONG
HAMMERLI 280 .22LR
HAMMERLI 280 .32 S&W LONG
HAMMERLI SP20 .22LR
HAMMERLI SP20 .32 S&W LONG
PARDINI GPO .22 SHORT
PARDINI GP-SCHUMANN .22 SHORT
PARDINI HP .32 S&W LONG
PARDINI MP .32 S&W LONG
PARDINI SP .22LR
PARDINI SPE .22LR
WALTHER GSP .22LR
WALTHER GSP .32 S&W LONG
WALTHER OSP .22 SHORT
WALTHER OSP-2000 .22 SHORT
According to the California Code of Regulations, a detachable magazine is defined as
Quote:
any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.”
If you have a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle that has a magazine that requires the use of a tool to remove, it does not meet the definition of a “detachable magazine” and as a result, the restrictions in PC 12276.1 do not apply. Just remember, said rifle cannot be on the 12276 or Kasler lists above, even if they have a fixed magazine or no evil features.

Also note that all of the rifle rules apply only to centerfire rifles. Any of the now popular .22 LR tactical rifles are legal to send into the state.

Calguns has created an assault weapons flowchart to assist you in determining if your rifle is legal to import.

http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi

So to sum up, all bolt action rifles, all lever action rifles, all cylinder fed rifles, all pump action shotguns (including with just pistol grips) or all semi-auto shotguns with just a pistol grip (and no collapsible stock too) and under ten rounds capacity are legal to send to CA.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 07-12-2011 at 7:50 AM..
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  #2  
Old 07-12-2011, 7:29 AM
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Default Handguns

There are some restrictions on handguns.

Out of state dealers can send non-rostered handguns to any CA dealer as long as they are not assault weapons. Again ssault weapon pistols are:

Quote:
12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms:
(b) All of the following specified pistols:
(1) UZI.
(2) Encom MP-9 and MP-45.
(3) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M-11.
(C) Advance Armament Inc. M-11.
(D) Military Armament Corp. Ingram M-11.
(4) Intratec TEC-9.
(5) Sites Spectre.
(6) Sterling MK-7.
(7) Calico M-950.
(8) Bushmaster Pistol.
and by generic features
Quote:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
However, a dealer can only dros non-rostered pistols to full time paid peace officers or to eligible family members in an intrafamilial transfer. If you send a non-rostered pistol to someone that does not meet those requirements, the pistol cannot be DROSed.

For a complete Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, please see the following link. http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

It might be in the out of state FFL's best interest to make sure the customer and the receiving FFL knows the firearm is on or off the list in order to avoid the hassle of a return. If the FFL and customer acknowledge the pistol is not on the list, the out of state FFL has no legal prohibition against sending the pistol in and it is up to the receiving FFL to lawfully transfer the pistol.

Of course if I were an out of state FFL, I would make sure my customer was aware it is not on the list and make sure they were aware of my re-stocking fee before shipping just in case the receiving FFL says they have to ship it back.

There are also ways for specific pistols to be exempt from the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale. They are curio and relics, designated Olympic pistols, single action revolvers (within the guidelines below), and single shot pistols (again, see definitions below).

Quote:
12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:
(g) The sale, loan, or transfer of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person listed as a curio or relic, as defined in Section 178.11 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(h)(1) The Legislature finds a significant public purpose in exempting pistols that are designed expressly for use in Olympic target shooting events. Therefore, those pistols that are sanctioned by the International Olympic Committee and by USA Shooting, the national governing body for international shooting competition in the United States, and that are used for Olympic target shooting purposes at the time that the act adding this subdivision is enacted, and that fall within the definition of "unsafe handgun" pursuant to paragraph (3) of subdivision (b) of Section 12126 shall be exempt, as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3). (2) This chapter shall not apply to any of the following pistols, because they are consistent with the significant public purpose expressed in paragraph (1):
MANUFACTURER MODEL CALIBER
ANSCHUTZ FP .22LR
BENELLI MP90 .22LR
BENELLI MP90 .32 S&W LONG
BENELLI MP95 .22LR
BENELLI MP95 .32 S&W LONG
DRULOV FP .22LR
GREEN ELECTROARM .22LR
HAMMERLI 100 .22LR
HAMMERLI 101 .22LR
HAMMERLI 102 .22LR
HAMMERLI 162 .22LR
HAMMERLI 280 .22LR
HAMMERLI 280 .32 S&W LONG
HAMMERLI FP10 .22LR
HAMMERLI MP33 .22LR
HAMMERLI SP20 .22LR
HAMMERLI SP20 .32 S&W LONG
MORINI CM102E .22LR
MORINI 22M .22LR
MORINI 32M .32 S&W LONG
MORINI CM80 .22LR
PARDINI GP .22 SHORT
PARDINI GPO .22 SHORT
PARDINI GP-SCHUMANN .22 SHORT
PARDINI HP .32 S&W LONG
PARDINI K22 .22LR
PARDINI MP .32 S&W LONG
PARDINI PGP75 .22LR
PARDINI SP .22LR
PARDINI SPE .22LR
SAKO FINMASTER .22LR
STEYR FP .22LR
VOSTOK IZH NO. 1 .22LR
VOSTOK MU55 .22LR
VOSTOK TOZ35 .22LR
WALTHER FP .22LR
WALTHER GSP .22LR
WALTHER GSP .32 S&W LONG
WALTHER OSP .22 SHORT
WALTHER OSP-2000 .22 SHORT
Quote:
12133. (a) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-action revolve that has at least a 5-cartridge capacity with a barrel length of not less than three inches, and meets any of the following specifications:
(1) Was originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(2) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.
(3) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled and that is currently approved for importation into the United States pursuant to the provisions of paragraph (3) of subsection (d) of Section 925 of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.
For a more complete explanation of single-action revolvers and single-shot pistols, please see this link. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=441766
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 07-23-2011 at 4:42 PM..
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  #3  
Old 07-12-2011, 7:35 AM
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Default Magazines

Additionally, you cannot send any large capacity magazines into the state unless they are sent to a dealer with a large capacity magazine permit.

Quote:
12020(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
However, it is legal to send it magazine parts kits. As long as you disassemble one part of a magazine so it is not functioning, it is not a large capacity magazine. Possession of large capacity magazines is not prohibited in the state so there are millions of law abiding citizens who lawfully acquired magazines before the 2000 restrictions. Those citizens can rebuild their old lawfully acquired magazines with parts kits, even if the magazine body is stamped after 2000.

Additionally, California citizens can also re-assemble any parts kits while out of state and then disassemble them again before re-entering the state.

Here is a written letter from the CA AG's office outlining this information. http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ...2005-11-10.pdf
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 07-12-2011 at 7:51 AM..
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Old 07-12-2011, 7:53 AM
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As far as NFA goes, only AOWs are lawful to possess by the general public in CA. Silencers, machine guns, SBRs, and SBSs are not legal to possess in CA. You will of course find that out when the Form 3 is denied.

It is important to note that since AR15 pistols can be lawfully purchased through the single shot pistol exemption, it is legal for residents to possess AR15 upper receivers under 16". It is important for the customer to know they should not have any uppers less than 16" and a lower receiver with a buttstock without a lawful pistol lower in their possession. This will trigger Federal constructive possession laws. However, that is not the responsibility of the person lawfully sending a complete upper receiver or barrel into the state.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 07-12-2011 at 7:57 AM..
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Old 08-01-2011, 5:27 AM
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Great summary, now if we can only folks like CDNN to actually read this......
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:40 AM
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Would the Haynie vs Pleasanton bullet button stuff fall under this thread since it deals with SB23 and it can affect shipping items in, or should it be a thread of it's own?

Thread here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=429902
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyJ View Post
Would the Haynie vs Pleasanton bullet button stuff fall under this thread since it deals with SB23 and it can affect shipping items in, or should it be a thread of it's own?

Thread here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=429902
I don't understand how that case changes anything. Can you be more specific? As far as I understand, the Bullet Button is legal. Always has been and always will be.

Now, I just got out of the mountains for a week. Was there an update on this case I missed and didn't see in my CGF e-mails?
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Old 01-07-2012, 9:24 AM
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Default A few more points:

What special requirements must FFLs complete in order to ship firearms into California?

Any FFL that ships a firearm to a California 01/07 FFL, should request and send a CFLC approval number with the firearm. California dealer's are subject to severe penalties for not maintaining their CFLC verification numbers.

Registering for the CFLC system is simple and can easily be done in about 2-5 minutes. Once you have registered, requesting and printout on a CFLC approval number should not take more than about 1-2 minutes.

To register for CFLC please follow this link.

Quote:
CFLC Enrollment Guidelines


You will need the following information from your valid Federal Firearms License (FFL):

Name of Business/individual/corporation
FFL expiration date or date from the Letter of Continuing Authorization (LOA) [LOA information]
Physical address
Business e-mail address
Telephone number
Facsimile number (if applicable)
Name of a contact person (The contact person's name appears on the Firearms Shipment Approval letter generated by CFLC)

If you have all the required information, please press the "Continue" button to proceed.
Can I as a private party ship a firearm directly into California?

Yes you can. The BATFE is clear that any non-licensee can ship a firearm to a FFL directly without going through another dealer to ship. Please see the BATFE FAQ.

Additionally the State of California is also clear that you do not have to register or generate a CFLC number if you are a private individual sending a firearm into the state. CFLC FAQ

Individual preferences

The CA gun owner is constantly frustrated when companies and individuals refuse to do business with Californians. Unfortunately some people would rather reduce their sales and income rather than sell lawful products to law abiding citizens. Please feel free to share this thread with out of state FFLs and citizens and let them know that their products are often lawful for Californians to buy and possess.

However in the end it is their choice. They can do business with whom they choose. If they say they can't ship a lawful product to you, simply remind them that they can, but they choose not to. You respect their choice and will be happy to give your hard earned money to one of the many other sellers out there that will be happy to accept your money.

Also be aware some CA dealers choose to accept firearms shipments only from licensed dealers and will not accept shipments from individuals. As I have clearly shown, it is perfectly legal for a non-licensee to ship firearms to licensees. If a dealer has a policy not to accept firearms directly from non-licensees, either try to find a dealer to have the firearm shipped through or let the receiving FFL know that you will not go through added expense for their policy and you will find another dealer who doesn't believe in additional customer restrictions (I as a dealer have no problems accepting firearms on your behalf from an individual because they do not require CFLC numbers).
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 01-09-2012 at 5:19 AM..
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Old 01-07-2012, 9:55 AM
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As usual, great work and summary Wes! Thank you
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:00 AM
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Great thread. I would edit the part about repairing magazines which where aquired before 2000 and make it read "aquired legally". There are retired LEOs, ex armored car gaurds and those who have given up their high capacity permits who have all legally aquired +10 round mags since 2000 and may need to repair them someday.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
It is illegal for a California dealer to accept firearms and log them into their A&D Books without a CFLC approval number.
This is not true. CA can NOT make it illegal to follow Federal requirements which is to log firearms into the A&D book.

If the FFL does not have the CFLC approval number, then they can not transfer the firearm. Without a copy of the FFL, the FFL can not just ship the firearm back.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Additionally, you cannot send any large capacity magazines into the state unless they are sent to a dealer with a large capacity magazine permit.
This is an opinion since it does not apply to CA firearms dealers. It is still a sale to the CA firearms dealer. It appears to me that the original intent of the high capacity magazine permit was for those who were not firearms dealers.

Stupid number changes as well as the laws actually changed. CA PC 12020 was broken apart into separate code sections.

Quote:
32310. Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section
32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, commencing January 1, 2000, any
person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured,
imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for
sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine is
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or
in the state prison.
Quote:
32410. Section 32310 does not apply to the sale or purchase of any
large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to
Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive.
Quote:
26700. As used in this division, and in any other provision listed
in Section 16580, "dealer," "licensee," or "person licensed pursuant
to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive" means a person who satisfies
all of the following requirements:
(a) Has a valid federal firearms license.
(b) Has any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required
by local government.
(c) Has a valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of
Equalization.
(d) Has a certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of
Justice pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) Has a license issued in the format prescribed by subdivision
(c) of Section 26705.
(f) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in
Section 26715.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:30 AM
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Great job Wes!

In addition to AOWs, C&R SBR and C&R SBS are legal in California. Not that I have ever seen one....
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2012, 5:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
This is not true. CA can NOT make it illegal to follow Federal requirements which is to log firearms into the A&D book.
I just read the law and this is correct.
Quote:
(c) (1) Any person licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code as a dealer, pawnbroker, importer, or manufacturer of firearms whose licensed premises are within this state shall not import or receive firearms from any source unless listed on the centralized list of firearms dealers pursuant to Section 12071, or the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees pursuant to subdivision (a), or the centralized list of firearms manufacturers pursuant to subdivision (f) of Section 12086. (2) A violation of this subdivision is a misdemeanor.
So if you are on the list, you can receive or import firearms.
Quote:
(d) (1) All persons on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees prescribed by subdivision (a) shall record and keep on file for three years, the verification number that shall accompany firearms received from other federal firearms licensees pursuant to subdivision (f) of Section 12072. (2) A violation of this subdivision is cause for immediate removal from the centralized list.
However, if you do not have the verification number, you can immediately be removed from the centralized list. I will go change that.

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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
If the FFL does not have the CFLC approval number, then they can not transfer the firearm. Without a copy of the FFL, the FFL can not just ship the firearm back.
If the FFL does not have the approval number, they can be immediately removed from the centralized list. This puts the dealer in a catch 22 as you are probably correct that you cannot return it without a copy of an FFL.
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  #15  
Old 01-09-2012, 5:22 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
This is an opinion since it does not apply to CA firearms dealers. It is still a sale to the CA firearms dealer. It appears to me that the original intent of the high capacity magazine permit was for those who were not firearms dealers.

Stupid number changes as well as the laws actually changed. CA PC 12020 was broken apart into separate code sections.
The penal code specifically states importation is illegal. You will not be charged with purchasing a large capacity magazine, you will be charged with importation. You still must have a large capacity magazine permit to import magazines. I think that is pretty clear.
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  #16  
Old 01-09-2012, 5:23 AM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Great thread. I would edit the part about repairing magazines which where aquired before 2000 and make it read "aquired legally". There are retired LEOs, ex armored car gaurds and those who have given up their high capacity permits who have all legally aquired +10 round mags since 2000 and may need to repair them someday.
Thanks for adding that. Now I don't have to.
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  #17  
Old 01-09-2012, 8:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I just read the law and this is correct. So if you are on the list, you can receive or import firearms.
However, if you do not have the verification number, you can immediately be removed from the centralized list. I will go change that.

If the FFL does not have the approval number, they can be immediately removed from the centralized list. This puts the dealer in a catch 22 as you are probably correct that you cannot return it without a copy of an FFL.
You might want to add that the CA FFL can not transfer the firearm if they don't have the CFLC number, which means that the firearm has to be shipped back or perhaps be turned over to the police.

The problem with the law is that you have to receive the firearm before you know if the number is there or not.

Federal law requires that you have a copy of the FFL before shipping, so you can annoy the state or the feds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
The penal code specifically states importation is illegal. You will not be charged with purchasing a large capacity magazine, you will be charged with importation. You still must have a large capacity magazine permit to import magazines. I think that is pretty clear.
Yes, but if you are buying the magazines, then you are exempt from the law. The sale to the FFL is enough to make you exempt. This is why it is an opinion. You are separating the sale from the importation, but it is one and the same transaction.
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  #18  
Old 01-09-2012, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Yes, but if you are buying the magazines, then you are exempt from the law. The sale to the FFL is enough to make you exempt. This is why it is an opinion. You are separating the sale from the importation, but it is one and the same transaction.
Did you import the magazines? Yes? Without an import exemption like a LCM permit, you violated the law. You can claim you found them, bought them, whatever, it doesn't matter. Did the magazines come from out of state and go to you? Yes? Importation. It is that simple.

If they were bought in state, no importation occured and you are fine without an LCM. If they came from out of state and you receive them, you are the importer. It doesn't get any clearer than that.
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  #19  
Old 01-09-2012, 4:05 PM
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Yes, but selling to a FFL is exempt and if selling includes importation, then it is also exempt since once you are exempt, the whole transaction is exempt. Were the magazines sold to a FFL? Yes? Then it is exempt. It really is that simple.

Ask your attorney about it.
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Old 01-09-2012, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Yes, but selling to a FFL is exempt and if selling includes importation, then it is also exempt since once you are exempt, the whole transaction is exempt. Were the magazines sold to a FFL? Yes? Then it is exempt. It really is that simple.

Ask your attorney about it.
So if selling to an FFL is exempt, then can I give magazines to an FFL and not violate any rules? Clearly not. Giving or lending magazines is illegal. Period. My 12071 license does not authorize me to give or lend nor does it authorize other people to give or lend magazines.

The person exporting them into the state is not covered by the penal code. My being able to lawfully purchase or buy magazines under the exemption you are talking about in no way applies to the other party. So if a regular guy off the street comes in and wants to sell me some large capacity magazines, he is not exempt because he is not a gun dealer and does not have a LCM permit. He violates the law by offering for sale and/or selling large capacity magazines, even to me someone who is exempt from buying them (which note it isn't illegal to buy them in the first place).

So when a person out of state exports magazines into the state, they are not exempt from the selling provisions in the penal code. So if selling is the same as exporting, then every person who has sent a LCM into the state has committed a crime, as they are not authorized to offer LCMs for sale in the state nor are they exempt since they are not licensed pursuant to 12071 (or whatever it is now).

Since exportation is not a crime, it is legal for someone from out of California to export magazines into the state. However, the person receiving the magazines must be exempt from the importation ban. The only people exempt from importation are people with LCM permits and a few others. They can lawfully import magazines. Licensed dealers without a LCM permit, are only permitted to buy and sell, which again buying is not illegal. However, selling is, but I don't sell magazines when I bring them in, I buy them.

Your whole argument falls apart when you consider selling and importing the same. They are clearly not, since the person exporting is the one selling and the person importing is the person buying.
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  #21  
Old 01-10-2012, 12:50 PM
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Read CA PC 32410. 12071 is the old number.

Give or lend is not included in the exemption under 32410

Quote:
32410. Section 32310 does not apply to the sale or purchase of any
large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to
Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
So if selling to an FFL is exempt, then can I give magazines to an FFL and not violate any rules? Clearly not. Giving or lending magazines is illegal. Period. My 12071 license does not authorize me to give or lend nor does it authorize other people to give or lend magazines.
Selling is exempt, giving is not.

Quote:
The person exporting them into the state is not covered by the penal code. My being able to lawfully purchase or buy magazines under the exemption you are talking about in no way applies to the other party. So if a regular guy off the street comes in and wants to sell me some large capacity magazines, he is not exempt because he is not a gun dealer and does not have a LCM permit. He violates the law by offering for sale and/or selling large capacity magazines, even to me someone who is exempt from buying them (which note it isn't illegal to buy them in the first place).
Yes, it does apply.

You are wrong about the person off the street. The person is exempt because they are selling the magazines to a licensed dealer. Read 32410.

Quote:
So when a person out of state exports magazines into the state, they are not exempt from the selling provisions in the penal code. So if selling is the same as exporting, then every person who has sent a LCM into the state has committed a crime, as they are not authorized to offer LCMs for sale in the state nor are they exempt since they are not licensed pursuant to 12071 (or whatever it is now).
Huh? What are you talking about?

If the person outside of CA is selling the magazines to a licensed dealer or a person with a LCM permit, then it is exempt.

Quote:
Since exportation is not a crime, it is legal for someone from out of California to export magazines into the state. However, the person receiving the magazines must be exempt from the importation ban. The only people exempt from importation are people with LCM permits and a few others. They can lawfully import magazines. Licensed dealers without a LCM permit, are only permitted to buy and sell, which again buying is not illegal. However, selling is, but I don't sell magazines when I bring them in, I buy them.
Read 32410. A licensed dealer is exempt as well. Selling is NOT illegal for a licensed firearms dealer in CA. There are NO limits, but that is not the view of the CA DOJ.

Quote:
Your whole argument falls apart when you consider selling and importing the same. They are clearly not, since the person exporting is the one selling and the person importing is the person buying.
No, my argument does not fall apart. You need to read 32410, as I have said numerous times. Since the licensed firearms dealer is BUYING and also importing, the transaction is exempt.

I really don't get how you read the CA PC at times.
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  #22  
Old 01-10-2012, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You are wrong about the person off the street. The person is exempt because they are selling the magazines to a licensed dealer. Read 32410.
I forgot about that, to or by does apply.

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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
No, my argument does not fall apart. You need to read 32410, as I have said numerous times. Since the licensed firearms dealer is BUYING and also importing, the transaction is exempt.

I really don't get how you read the CA PC at times.
Buying magazines is exempt. Importing magazines is not. It is that simple. If importing was the same as buying, then they would not require a permit to import LCMs. Call the DOJ and ask them then. Get the name and information and let us know what they say.

The question is, do you personally import magazines without an LCM permit? If not, why are you advocating that people do something illegal that you are not doing yourself? You are purposely baiting people into violating the law. Be careful, you might get a call from the DOJ soon. That would be disappointing though because they don't do that and just do emergency inspections right?

I am just screwing with you. In all seriousness, I would not import magazines without an LCM permit. Until there is case law that says importing is the same as buying, despite the penal code that deliniates both as separate crimes and exemptions, you are taking a big risk. Well not really, no one really cares.
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  #23  
Old 01-10-2012, 2:48 PM
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Selling and importing as one transaction is exempt because the selling to a licensed firearms dealer is exempt.

If the person is a licensed firearms dealer as specified in the law, then it is not illegal as long as the magazines are being sold or purchased. Which means that I am not advocating anything which is illegal, unlike someone else.

The law mentions selling and importing, but those can be separate issues. In some cases it is all one transaction.

The CA DOJ view of the law does not match what it is written as, even with the changes. If you have a LCM permit, then things change because you agree to certain terms, but without it what law is being broken by a FFL selling a large capacity magazine to an average person? See 32410. Now, I would not want to push this issue unless I had a lot of money and a good attorney.

His response proves that he could not read the above paragraph.

I have talked to the DOJ about this specific issue and it was quite interesting and the bottom line was that the DOJ said that if a FFL did that they would be charged with 12020(a)(2), but the person got quite upset when I pointed out that the FFL would be exempt for the transaction (just a sale) under 12020(b)(21).
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Old 01-11-2012, 4:50 AM
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Selling and importing as one transaction is exempt because the selling to a licensed firearms dealer is exempt.

If the person is a licensed firearms dealer as specified in the law, then it is not illegal as long as the magazines are being sold or purchased. Which means that I am not advocating anything which is illegal, unlike someone else.

The law mentions selling and importing, but those can be separate issues. In some cases it is all one transaction.

The CA DOJ view of the law does not match what it is written as, even with the changes. If you have a LCM permit, then things change because you agree to certain terms, but without it what law is being broken by a FFL selling a large capacity magazine to an average person? See 32410. Now, I would not want to push this issue unless I had a lot of money and a good attorney.
Your opinion is that although importation is clearly listed as a separate actionable item, that a dealer is okay to import magazines without a LCM Permit because that dealer is exempt from buying magazines, even though buying magazines is not illegal, but importation is. So according to you, clearly the penal code sees importation and buying as synonymous even though buying is not a prohibited act but importation is?

Here is where you do exactly what you criticize others for doing. You have no evidence that you do this yourself. You are advocating that it is legal, but you would not do it yourself without "more money and a good attorney". Further, you have not attempted to call and ask the DOJ if this is legal or not, but you have already implied they are wrong.

Now note where you and I are different: that is cool you have this opinion. You are entitled to your opinion and if other dealers want to follow you on this, you won't hear me complaining. I will not be calling the DOJ with an anonymous tip, I won't demand to know what time and date you actually did anything like this, and I won't give you ominous warnings that you are going to be arrested and thrown in jail someday and that you are taking down a bunch of other dealers with you. I won''t send complaints to your fellow board members.

I just want everyone to see your clear hypocrisy. You will have some lengthy answer to this that isn't relevant and you won't acknowledge you are a hypocrite. That is fine, everyone else knows it and I won't even bother to comment on your reply that we all know is coming.

So my last comment on the subject, if you think importing magazines is not illegal if you are exempt from buying magazines, which is not illegal, then by all means don't get your LCM Permit and import magazines. See if you get charged with "buying magazines" or "importing magazines" and good luck arguing with a judge you weren't importing magazines, you were just buying them from out of state. And on the practical side good luck getting any wholesalers to send you magazines without a LCM permit.

In the grand scheme of things, no one cares. This issue isn't important and most of you have a large capacity magazine permit.

And just as promised here is kemasa's reply in the very next post...
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  #25  
Old 01-12-2012, 8:29 AM
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Wes, you are quite an interesting person. Your response is just a personal attack on me, due to your own personal issues. You have claimed that single can be defined as anything that you want so that you can add additional long guns to an already submitted DROS and add it to the previous sale. You post this to a public forum and then claim to get a phone call from the CA DOJ, but your comments seemed to be not consistent. You posted that Bob at the DOJ could confirm that he called you, but when I called your bluff and called him, he could not confirm that he called you. You falsely accuse me of things and you post offense posts with no proof because you did something stupid. This shows volumes about you. You have also made libelous statements here about me as well.

I received the following message regarding you:

Quote:
10% is a 30yr old kid who likes to argue. I thought you figured that out by now? Shame on you!

Don't argue with stupid, he will beat you with experience!

Have a good one...
Which is quite true.

You enter the realm of delusions when you show that can't even read what I actually said and then make false claims that I want anyone to "follow" me on this. I am pointing out what the law actually says and some issues (related) with the law. I suspect that you just don't like it because of issues with your ego.

It would be interesting to see the issue with the law pushed in court, but the simple fact is that I have a basis for what I am saying as shown by the actual penal code, instead of trying to warp words like you do.

As you say, most FFLs have the permit and companies might not ship to a FFL if they don't have the permit. My point is to point out what the actual law is. I believe, based on the law, that it would not violate the law for a FFL to sell a LCM to anyone, but as I also said, I would not personally do that unless I had a lot of money and a good attorney. You are the one who actually pointed that out to me originally and to be honest, based on your other "reading" of the PC, I did not believe you until I actually read it myself as I thought that you were playing words games as you tend to do.

So the difference is that I don't promote illegal activity, as you have done with adding long guns to a previous sale and I understand what the word "single" means, which you have shown that you don't. This shows that you are the hypocrite and you just can't take responsibility for your own actions.
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