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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 07-05-2011, 11:32 PM
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Default Mag Magnet for bullet button question

I currently own a Sig 556 with a bullet button installed. I plan on going out of state for some training periodically, first time being in this upcoming September. I came across this product and had a few questions.

http://www.ar-magmagnet.com/

1) Can I legally transport the "mag Magnet device" in the same automobile as my rifle so long as it is not attached to the rifle in any way?

2) Is the mag magnet legal to own and posses in California being as though my center-fire rifle has "evil features" and a fixed magazine? Or do I need to have it shipped out of state to the training facility I plan on attending?

3) Does "constructive intent" exist in current law? Does it apply to AW in CA?

4) Can anyone review this product for me?


Thank you in advance to all those who respond...
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2011, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekidprodigy87 View Post
I currently own a Sig 556 with a bullet button installed. I plan on going out of state for some training periodically, first time being in this upcoming September. I came across this product and had a few questions.

http://www.ar-magmagnet.com/

1) Can I legally transport the "mag Magnet device" in the same automobile as my rifle so long as it is not attached to the rifle in any way?

2) Is the mag magnet legal to own and posses in California being as though my center-fire rifle has "evil features" and a fixed magazine? Or do I need to have it shipped out of state to the training facility I plan on attending?

3) Does "constructive intent" exist in current law? Does it apply to AW in CA?

4) Can anyone review this product for me?


Thank you in advance to all those who respond...
Yes

Yes, no

No

No

You're welcome...
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  #3  
Old 07-06-2011, 12:02 AM
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thank you!
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:10 AM
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Just don't use it in CA and you are fine. Inside CA the minute you put it on a rifle that requires a bullet button, you have made it an assault weapon.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:12 AM
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can I borrow and use high capacity mags when out of state? Or does this somehow make my weapon and AW? Sorry if that's a dumb question.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekidprodigy87 View Post
can I borrow and use high capacity mags when out of state? Or does this somehow make my weapon and AW? Sorry if that's a dumb question.
The only dumb question is the one you don't ask...and get arrested for later...lol

You are not constrained by any CA law when you're not in CA...so if you cross into Nevada or Arizona...you would be subject to their laws only...and since there are no restrictions on magazines in those States...you can borrow, beg, and steal (not literally) all the 30 rounders you want and use them in your weapon. You can remove the bullet button the minute you cross the State line as well (or use your mag magnet) without fear of this State's ridiculous restrictions.

Just make sure everything is back the way it was when you come back.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:46 AM
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thanks again!
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Old 07-06-2011, 1:08 AM
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Funny that you can be a law-abiding citizen one second, and literally the next second you cross into CA, you are a felon.
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Old 07-06-2011, 1:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk556 View Post
Funny that you can be a law-abiding citizen one second, and literally the next second you cross into CA, you are a felon.
It's not funny, it is a horrible thing. It is disgusting, disgraceful, and a perfect example of how politicians that say they "are for the people" try and destroy all of our civil rights every chance they get.

Sorry, just ranting. It is laws like these that make me ashamed that I was born and raised in this **** hole.
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2011, 7:22 AM
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If you're going to be training, the worst thing you could use is the mag-magnet. It's NOT going to stay in place when you need it the most, guaranteed.

Just take out the bullet button when you get to the free state and replace it with the standard magazine release that everyone else will be running in the class.

To remove the bullet button:
http://www.riflegear.com/p-498-vamfi...tion-tool.aspx
or:
http://www.riflegear.com/p-939-ar15-...tion-tool.aspx

Less than half the cost of the Mag Magnet.
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Old 07-06-2011, 8:30 AM
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CHS is right.

Also, the idea of putting money in to the hands of people who make a product that really could not be better designed to make felons out of the understandably ignorant is no good.

The manufacturer should take his product off the market and tell people not to use it if he wants to do the right thing.
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:11 AM
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You can also buy large capacity magazines while out of state (just follow laws of state you are visiting) and disassemble the magazines before returning to CA. There are no restrictions on possession of magazine parts in CA.
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CHS View Post
If you're going to be training, the worst thing you could use is the mag-magnet. It's NOT going to stay in place when you need it the most, guaranteed.

Just take out the bullet button when you get to the free state and replace it with the standard magazine release that everyone else will be running in the class.
Or get a Radlock magazine release...just turn the screw to use it like a normal release when in free states, turn it back before entering CA.
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  #14  
Old 07-06-2011, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by moleculo View Post
Or get a Radlock magazine release...just turn the screw to use it like a normal release when in free states, turn it back before entering CA.
Why would someone who's already got a bullet button pay $35 for an additional magazine release when they can just remove the bullet button and use the original one the gun came with?
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
--Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:17 AM
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Oh boy... Here we go...

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  #16  
Old 07-06-2011, 11:45 AM
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Heeeeeeeere we go....

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekidprodigy87 View Post
I currently own a Sig 556 with a bullet button installed. I plan on going out of state for some
training periodically, first time being in this upcoming September. I came across this product
and had a few questions.

http://www.ar-magmagnet.com/
Ah, the infamous "Mag Magnet" - commonly called "felony button".

The owner & staff - esp at gunshows - has not evidenced any moral duty to warn about the extremely limited uses of this device, esp in California. Were he to do so, he would likely not have sales income substantial enough to pay for booth space around the state at gunshows over the last ~2 years. Multiple interviews with people who had visited the MagMagnet booth revealed gross misunderstandings of the limited legal uses in CA. I also note that the 'demo gun' used by the MagMagnet folks is a featureless build - if he'd really put his money where his mouth was, he'd have demo'd the MagMagnet on an EBR with a BulletButton in a hall full of DOJ agents.

I get continual reports from across the state that of people misusing MagMagnets at ranges in CA due to a complete lack of understanding, and the 'feel' from the very vague representations of the MagMagnet people that the product is legal. The problem is that noobs see an exemption for something like a BulletButton and then think this is just one more exemptive element.

MISUSE OF A MAG MAGNET IN CA ON A MAGLOCKED SEMIAUTO CENTERFIRE RIFLE MAY *ENHANCE* SEVERITY OF ANY CHARGES FILED ON AN A.W. ARREST, AND BLOCK ANY PROSPECTIVE AB2728 REDUCTION TO NUISANCE (or EVEN MISDEMEANOR). The big problem is that BulletButton maglock demonstrates intentional compliance, and the MagMagnet demonstrates a further intentional override of that compliance element.


[As far as I am concerned, crack whores have higher moral stances than MagMagnet, Inc. - since at least they give value for a $25 transaction, and at worst the service provided by them only risks a misdemeanor, not a felony.]

Quote:
1) Can I legally transport the "mag Magnet device" in the same
automobile as my rifle so long as it is not attached to the rifle
in any way?
Yes. I'd keep it well separated. There's no constructive possession for AWs in California, but walking too close to the line can be cop & DA bait.

You shouldn't drive around with a gripless rifle and a grip right next to it, either.

Quote:
2) Is the mag magnet legal to own and posses in California being as
though my center-fire rifle has "evil features" and a fixed magazine?
Or do I need to have it shipped out of state to the training facility I
plan on attending?
It is legal to own and possess in CA when separate from the gun. (Again, no constructive posession for the field of AW law in CA.)

You are one of the few folks in CA that has a legitmate need for such a device, though I will say that exchanging a BulletButton vs. regular mag catch only takes a couple of minutes anyway, just remember to reinstall the BulletButton *before* you cross back to California!

The MagMagnet can generally only be used in California in the following situations:
  • on semiauto centerfire rifles with no 'characteristic features' (say, using a MonsterMan or
    Solar Tactical grip, or a U15 stock, or an Exile Mfg stock adapter) - and with a maglock installed
    and a 10rd (or less) magazine.

    [I know of nobody that would maglock such a rifle, so this usage scenario is pretty damned moot
    and is just an intellectual exercise]
    .
  • on semiauto rimfire rifles. The rimfire exemption to SB23 AW law for rifles allows all evil features
    (except intrinsically/separately illegal grenade launchers) to be present. This would allow a maglocked
    OLL lower normally used for centerfire use to have a rimfire upper thrown on and legally use *detachable*
    22LR magazines in CA. NOTE THAT THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO SEMIAUTO PISTOLS since there's no
    rimfire exemption to 12276.1PC AW laws for pistols.

    .
  • on Category III (SB23/12276.1PC) registered Assault Weapons using a maglock and a 10rd or
    less magazine. By maglocking such Cat 3 reg'd AWs, these guns fall out of AW status and can be
    transported like normal rifles without more restrictive AW treatment. [The AW registration allows the
    gun to be reassembled into an AW again; the actual AW *status* is determined by the configured
    features suite at time of examination.]

    [Note that maglocking a listed (Roberti-Roos or Kasler) AW (registered or otherwise) will NOT take it out
    of AW status so the above is inapplicable.]

Quote:
3) Does "constructive intent" exist in current law?
Does it apply to AW in CA?
As stated above, no - not for AWs - and it's more properly called 'constructive possession'.

Constructive possession DOES exist under CA law for SBRs, SBSes, MGs under CA law (12020(c)... PC) quite *separately* from any related Federal issues for those entities.

Quote:
4) Can anyone review this product for me?
Um, sorry, not me... ;-)

Now, a quality Calguns vendor, Solar Tactical, has made a roughly similar product and sells it with appropriate warnings - and for a lower cost! - and is thus far more deserving of your business. We just don't need gunnies going to jail and/or creating cans of worms with BulletButtons - esp now that the DOJ has admitted (for the first time) in Fed. Court that BulletButtoned ARs are legal.
http://www.solartactical.com/AR15-AR10-MAGNET-RAPID-RELEASE-BUTTON-104.htm
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  #17  
Old 07-07-2011, 12:05 AM
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thanks everyone, and thanks Bill, I decided to go with buying a replacement standard mag release and spring, along with an additional bullet button in case my current one gets damaged during removal (I may have used a little too much Blue locktite). I also bought the tool CHS recommended.

I had posted a few questions in regards to magazine rebuild kits regarding my age here http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showt...=48794&page=14

any help is much appreciated!
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekidprodigy87 View Post
thanks everyone, and thanks Bill, I decided to go with buying a replacement standard mag release and spring, along with an additional bullet button in case my current one gets damaged during removal (I may have used a little too much Blue locktite). I also bought the tool CHS recommended.

I had posted a few questions in regards to magazine rebuild kits regarding my age here http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showt...=48794&page=14

any help is much appreciated!
Per your other thread, the burden of proof is on the state, and since there is no limitations on who can purchase a magazine, it's impossible to say you didn't purchase them or have them given to you prior to the ban. The only caveat is if you some how magically purchased/acquired a magazine in 1992 for a gun that wasn't made until 2004. But even then, there's no law on owning that magazine, so the state would have to prove you did one of the illegal activities when you obtained it, which may or may not be easy for them.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Heeeeeeeere we go....



Ah, the infamous "Mag Magnet" - commonly called "felony button".

The owner & staff - esp at gunshows - has not evidenced any moral duty to warn about the extremely limited uses of this device, esp in California. Were he to do so, he would likely not have sales income substantial enough to pay for booth space around the state at gunshows over the last ~2 years. Multiple interviews with people who had visited the MagMagnet booth revealed gross misunderstandings of the limited legal uses in CA. I also note that the 'demo gun' used by the MagMagnet folks is a featureless build - if he'd really put his money where his mouth was, he'd have demo'd the MagMagnet on an EBR with a BulletButton in a hall full of DOJ agents.

I get continual reports from across the state that of people misusing MagMagnets at ranges in CA due to a complete lack of understanding, and the 'feel' from the very vague representations of the MagMagnet people that the product is legal. The problem is that noobs see an exemption for something like a BulletButton and then think this is just one more exemptive element.

MISUSE OF A MAG MAGNET IN CA ON A MAGLOCKED SEMIAUTO CENTERFIRE RIFLE MAY *ENHANCE* SEVERITY OF ANY CHARGES FILED ON AN A.W. ARREST, AND BLOCK ANY PROSPECTIVE AB2728 REDUCTION TO NUISANCE (or EVEN MISDEMEANOR). The big problem is that BulletButton maglock demonstrates intentional compliance, and the MagMagnet demonstrates a further intentional override of that compliance element.


[As far as I am concerned, crack whores have higher moral stances than MagMagnet, Inc. - since at least they give value for a $25 transaction, and at worst the service provided by them only risks a misdemeanor, not a felony.]

Yes. I'd keep it well separated. There's no constructive possession for AWs in California, but walking too close to the line can be cop & DA bait.

You shouldn't drive around with a gripless rifle and a grip right next to it, either.

It is legal to own and possess in CA when separate from the gun. (Again, no constructive posession for the field of AW law in CA.)

You are one of the few folks in CA that has a legitmate need for such a device, though I will say that exchanging a BulletButton vs. regular mag catch only takes a couple of minutes anyway, just remember to reinstall the BulletButton *before* you cross back to California!

The MagMagnet can generally only be used in California in the following situations:
  • on semiauto centerfire rifles with no 'characteristic features' (say, using a MonsterMan or
    Solar Tactical grip, or a U15 stock, or an Exile Mfg stock adapter) - and with a maglock installed
    and a 10rd (or less) magazine.

    [I know of nobody that would maglock such a rifle, so this usage scenario is pretty damned moot
    and is just an intellectual exercise]
    .
  • on semiauto rimfire rifles. The rimfire exemption to SB23 AW law for rifles allows all evil features
    (except intrinsically/separately illegal grenade launchers) to be present. This would allow a maglocked
    OLL lower normally used for centerfire use to have a rimfire upper thrown on and legally use *detachable*
    22LR magazines in CA. NOTE THAT THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO SEMIAUTO PISTOLS since there's no
    rimfire exemption to 12276.1PC AW laws for pistols.

    .
  • on Category III (SB23/12276.1PC) registered Assault Weapons using a maglock and a 10rd or
    less magazine. By maglocking such Cat 3 reg'd AWs, these guns fall out of AW status and can be
    transported like normal rifles without more restrictive AW treatment. [The AW registration allows the
    gun to be reassembled into an AW again; the actual AW *status* is determined by the configured
    features suite at time of examination.]

    [Note that maglocking a listed (Roberti-Roos or Kasler) AW (registered or otherwise) will NOT take it out
    of AW status so the above is inapplicable.]

As stated above, no - not for AWs - and it's more properly called 'constructive possession'.

Constructive possession DOES exist under CA law for SBRs, SBSes, MGs under CA law (12020(c)... PC) quite *separately* from any related Federal issues for those entities.

Um, sorry, not me... ;-)

Now, a quality Calguns vendor, Solar Tactical, has made a roughly similar product and sells it with appropriate warnings - and for a lower cost! - and is thus far more deserving of your business. We just don't need gunnies going to jail and/or creating cans of worms with BulletButtons - esp now that the DOJ has admitted (for the first time) in Fed. Court that BulletButtoned ARs are legal.
http://www.solartactical.com/AR15-AR10-MAGNET-RAPID-RELEASE-BUTTON-104.htm
I will not attempt to rehash what was so eloquently posted by Bill but I would like to add this: At the Ontario Gun Show I discovered that the Felony button is alive and well and being peddled by two snake-oil salesmen this time.
I stopped by to look at the MagMagnet booth and noticed he had the CGN AW Flowchart on his table. I mentioned the irony of seeing that flow chart, the discussion that has been had on here about his product and the fact that his product will inevitably land some idiot out there with having to pony up for a retainer fee. A few people were standing around so he took the time to point out that he had a featureless AR-15 on display for product demonstrations. I then pointed him to his other AR on the table and said why don't you put it on that one...oh, that's right.....it would make it an assault weapon.

No warnings on the product, no decisions from the DOJ stating that it is legal to use, just somebody trying to make a quick buck off the backs of those that have fought so hard to restore gun rights in California. It disgusts me. He did try to reassure me that with every sale he does spend time talking to the customer to inform them of the applicable laws. But considering the source of the information, I would have to say that his legal knowledge is worth less than the cost of the magnet he uses in his product.

ETA:

FMJReloads did assure me that they had submitted their version of the "Felony Button" to the DOJ for a decision but have not heard back from them. So, in the mean-time it is legal to use. [Note: those were his words, not mine]

Need more info on the subject? See this thread
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Last edited by obeygiant; 07-30-2011 at 10:40 PM..
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  #20  
Old 07-30-2011, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BannedinBritain View Post
The only dumb question is the one you don't ask...and get arrested for later...lol

You are not constrained by any CA law when you're not in CA...so if you cross into Nevada or Arizona...you would be subject to their laws only...and since there are no restrictions on magazines in those States...you can borrow, beg, and steal (not literally) all the 30 rounders you want and use them in your weapon. You can remove the bullet button the minute you cross the State line as well (or use your mag magnet) without fear of this State's ridiculous restrictions.

Just make sure everything is back the way it was when you come back.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:55 AM
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In a situation like this you pretty much have 4 options:

1. Remove your bullet button and run a standard AR for training (Best option for training with an AR assuming we're able to ditch the AWB in CA or you move out and will be able to use standard ARs.)

2. Leave your bullet button as is and run a handicapped rifle (Best option for training with an AR assuming you'll remain in CA and we can't get rid of the AWB or you'll need to utilize your training before we can.)

3. Use pretty red screw in device that can be found here. (Good option if your to lazy to remove your bullet button and reinstall it and want to practice with a standard-like AR.)

4. Use MagMagnet (Worst option as it is less effective than removing bullet button or using the screw in device, and furthermore they don't advise of the legal ramifications of misuse of their product which causes them to be a liability to the gun rights community as a whole.)
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Old 07-31-2011, 1:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekidprodigy87 View Post
can I borrow and use high capacity mags when out of state? Or does this somehow make my weapon and AW? Sorry if that's a dumb question.
You can either borrow standard cap mags and use them out of state, or when you're in America, you can purchase some standard capacity mags and use them.

Just remember when you leave America and return to the People's Republik of KA, you must disassemble them or you're importing (crime) and bunnies and kittens are slaughtered by the hundreds.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by thekidprodigy87 View Post
4) Can anyone review this product for me?
I keep a couple at my place in AZ and use it while out there. It works as advertised and sure is a lot easier than swapping an old mag release in and out. Although my lower came with the bb already installed so I'd have to get a standard release to do that anyway. Paranoia does set in though and I check about 5 times to make sure the thing is actually off the gun before driving back across the border. I may be the only one on the board that actually likes the things as they work well for what I use them for.
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  #24  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:41 AM
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CHS is right.

Also, the idea of putting money in to the hands of people who make a product that really could not be better designed to make felons out of the understandably ignorant is no good.

The manufacturer should take his product off the market and tell people not to use it if he wants to do the right thing.
The manufacturer knows that this product, if used in CA, causes law abiding individuals to become instant felons.
The manufacturer does not care, and continues to peddle this product to unsuspecting purchasers at gunshows.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:02 PM
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The manufacturer knows that this product, if used in CA, causes law abiding individuals to become instant felons.
The manufacturer does not care, and continues to peddle this product to unsuspecting purchasers at gunshows.
Bingo.

When I was at the SF Cow Palace gunshow awhile back, I caught up with, and briefly interviewed, several folks that had visited the MagMagnet booth. These were folks considering buying an AR or had just gotten one and were a tad new to gun rights and Calguns-style 'aggressive compliance',

All of these folks thought the MagMagnet was "yet another loophole" merely to be applied on top of the BulletButton 'loophole'. They told me they'd had no warning on featured vs. featureless guns or out-of-state vs inside-CA matters.

If MagMagnet were selling its products legitimately in CA (i.e., with sufficient caveats about dire consequences of misapplication, and the relatively rare allowed usage within CA), they simply would not have the income to support ONE booth at a CA gunshow - let alone at multiple shows, statewide, over an extended time period.
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Old 08-01-2011, 4:09 PM
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Wouldn't the 'mag magnet' be considered a tool? As long as you don't leave it attached to the bullet button?
Or how about the removable device that threads into the bullet button? Should be considered a 'tool' as long as it isn't left threaded onto the BB.
It makes too much sense, therefore CA deems it a felony. Go figure...

Last edited by a79flhrider; 08-01-2011 at 4:14 PM..
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Old 08-01-2011, 6:06 PM
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Wouldn't the 'mag magnet' be considered a tool? As long as you don't leave it attached to the bullet button?
Or how about the removable device that threads into the bullet button? Should be considered a 'tool' as long as it isn't left threaded onto the BB.
It makes too much sense, therefore CA deems it a felony. Go figure...
It would be a tool without the magnet.

Once the magnet sticks to the steel of the mag catch post inside the bullet button, it instantly becomes part of the gun and is no longer a tool. It is now a standard magazine release.

It doesn't matter if you leave it stuck for only as long as it takes to change a magazine, or a week. It's still a felony.

Same with the threaded "tool". What do you mean "as long as it isn't left threaded onto the BB"? If you thread it on to use as a tool, it's going to be left on for however long it takes you to use it and unthread it.

At that point it ceases to become a tool. It becomes the magazine release for the firearm. A felony.

Why is this so hard to understand?
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Old 08-02-2011, 12:06 AM
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It would be a tool without the magnet.

Same with the threaded "tool". What do you mean "as long as it isn't left threaded onto the BB"? If you thread it on to use as a tool, it's going to be left on for however long it takes you to use it and unthread it.

At that point it ceases to become a tool. It becomes the magazine release for the firearm. A felony.
Wait but if the threaded tool is on while a cmmg .22 converstion is installed it's legal right? As long as it's removed before you switch to the standard ar15 BCG?
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Old 08-02-2011, 12:13 AM
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Wait but if the threaded tool is on while a cmmg .22 converstion is installed it's legal right? As long as it's removed before you switch to the standard ar15 BCG?
Not centerfire, not an AW.
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Old 08-02-2011, 3:20 PM
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Wait but if the threaded tool is on while a cmmg .22 converstion is installed it's legal right? As long as it's removed before you switch to the standard ar15 BCG?
It would be legal, but that doesn't mean it's a "tool" in regards to being required in order to operate a bullet button.
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