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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #641  
Old 05-27-2011, 3:36 AM
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And the co-sponsors keep coming......234 now.
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  #642  
Old 05-27-2011, 9:47 PM
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Is there any info on when this is going to start moving along? the debt ceiling vote is probably going to be in the next 2 months so ya...
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  #643  
Old 05-27-2011, 10:37 PM
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Is there any info on when this is going to start moving along? the debt ceiling vote is probably going to be in the next 2 months so ya...
Let's all call on Tuesday AM and ask. Seriously... Let's get this going by telling Congressman Stearns first thing Tuesday to LET'S GET THIS GOING!!!

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  #644  
Old 05-28-2011, 3:11 AM
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Let's all call on Tuesday AM and ask. Seriously... Let's get this going by telling Congressman Stearns first thing Tuesday to LET'S GET THIS GOING!!!



Erik.
You can ask him what the plan is, but I'm pretty sure it's not moving on purpose. I don't know procedures on attaching to must-pass legislation.
I'm also wondering what the NRA is doing behind the scenes as far as the Senate goes. They usually sound the alarm for people to contact their Senators to support a bill. Will the Senate even put up a similiar bill or just run with HR 822? Is the reason we haven't had the NRA asking for support of this bill because they already have the 60 votes locked down in the Senate?
This could very well be a case where it doesn't move at all until it's passed at midnight along with the debt ceiling bill.
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  #645  
Old 05-28-2011, 6:11 AM
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Thanks. I counted 31 democrats, not really a groundswell of democrat support. Why am I not surprised?
One more democrat makes 32.
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  #646  
Old 05-30-2011, 1:15 PM
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That only negates the state GFSZ. The Federal GFSZ only applies if you are carrying in the state that granted your license. Ergo, if you are a New York resident carrying in California on a Utah non-resident license, you are violating Federal law by carrying within 1000' of a school, even if California permitted it. You could, however, carry in Utah without violating Federal law. That's why HR 822 needs to contain a technical correction to the Federal GFSZ law, to prevent this Trojan horse from hitting gunowners who think that HR 822 is going to let them carry without violating the law. Historically, Federal attorneys have not made violations of GFSZ a primary prosecutable offense, but that could change at any time, especially with an AG like Holder.
CalGuns and MSI (Maryland Shall Issue) got their word in on this a long time ago. Gray is modest (I know...impossible) on this one, but he had some ideas that the folks in DC were considering. As good as they were, there is little chance everything will prevail. Some things are hard to change given the environment we are in.

I will say two things: as far as incremental approaches go, the existing bill would be huge; and the authors of this bill want us to let everyone in gun-land hear the following words: "There will be test cases."

They literally cannot solve it all in one fell swoop. I want everyone to take a real deep breath before complaining about those who are working their asses off for the rest of us...
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  #647  
Old 05-30-2011, 1:19 PM
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Let's all call on Tuesday AM and ask. Seriously... Let's get this going by telling Congressman Stearns first thing Tuesday to LET'S GET THIS GOING!!!



Erik.
Call and offer your support and thanks. Ask what you can do to help.

Respectfully, do not try to apply pressure. There is a dance between the House and Senate on this one and each side is coordinating heavily and waiting for the right moment to move. We are guessing over the debt ceiling bill. It could be anything. The Senate is where the final votes need to come from. That means slight tweaks to modify the measure for the final few Senators will be made there. If the House were to put this to a floor vote now, it would pass. That would also constrain the Senate because unless the two versions match exactly, they need to go to a "conference" where the differences are settled between the two chambers. Then that means another vote in each chamber. We do not want this going around the Ferris Wheel more than once in the Senate - so we do not want the House to vote on this until the Senate has done their complete dance. So the House is on hold for good reason. Nobody is getting cold feet. It's just the way this needs to work.

As a side note, it could end up that reciprocity never gets voted on in Bill form - the whole this could pass as amendments on both sides.

This is not folly. They intend to pass this if they can. I'd say we have until mid or late August before we need to worry. This process is complicated on a good day and I doubt the authors have a complete grasp of exactly how they will advance the measure. We just need to wait and keep letting them know they have our support.
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  #648  
Old 05-30-2011, 1:59 PM
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I'm a total outsider to all of this but what Patrick-2 says sounds right to me. It's going to be a complicated process to pass this. It can't be signed as a stand-alone bill because they don't have the necessary votes to override President Obama's veto. Therefore it must be attached, but then that brings it into a very complicated fight over amendments on a must-pass bill. Lots of other issues will be in the fight as well, the big ones being spending cuts. CCW is very important to all of us, but in Congress, including among Republicans, it's just one issue of many.

That's why it's so great to be fighting on multiple fronts: legislative, judicial, and AJAX22's CCWforAll project and local efforts here.
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  #649  
Old 05-30-2011, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick-2 View Post
Call and offer your support and thanks. Ask what you can do to help.

Respectfully, do not try to apply pressure. There is a dance between the House and Senate on this one and each side is coordinating heavily and waiting for the right moment to move. We are guessing over the debt ceiling bill. It could be anything. The Senate is where the final votes need to come from. That means slight tweaks to modify the measure for the final few Senators will be made there. If the House were to put this to a floor vote now, it would pass. That would also constrain the Senate because unless the two versions match exactly, they need to go to a "conference" where the differences are settled between the two chambers. Then that means another vote in each chamber. We do not want this going around the Ferris Wheel more than once in the Senate - so we do not want the House to vote on this until the Senate has done their complete dance. So the House is on hold for good reason. Nobody is getting cold feet. It's just the way this needs to work.

As a side note, it could end up that reciprocity never gets voted on in Bill form - the whole this could pass as amendments on both sides.

This is not folly. They intend to pass this if they can. I'd say we have until mid or late August before we need to worry. This process is complicated on a good day and I doubt the authors have a complete grasp of exactly how they will advance the measure. We just need to wait and keep letting them know they have our support.
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I'm a total outsider to all of this but what Patrick-2 says sounds right to me. It's going to be a complicated process to pass this. It can't be signed as a stand-alone bill because they don't have the necessary votes to override President Obama's veto. Therefore it must be attached, but then that brings it into a very complicated fight over amendments on a must-pass bill. Lots of other issues will be in the fight as well, the big ones being spending cuts. CCW is very important to all of us, but in Congress, including among Republicans, it's just one issue of many.

That's why it's so great to be fighting on multiple fronts: legislative, judicial, and AJAX22's CCWforAll project and local efforts here.
OK, I don't know everything about Congress (except that it's the opposite of "progress" ), but these 2 make sense. One thing that James Thomas (Stearns' staff guy who is on this issue) told me was that they could use the support of as many organizations as possible, particularly GOA, and I have already asked them to support HR-822. This would be helpful because some org's weren't willing to concede any compromises when the Thune Amendment was up last time, and that was a factor in the end result.

Stearns has enough votes in the Senate, but still... What is happening now, could change 20 minutes later, so it might help that when calling and asking what we might be able to expect in the future, to not just say that we are a "member of the NRA", no?

Erik.
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  #650  
Old 05-30-2011, 3:37 PM
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I agree with Patrick-2 and CCWFacts...
its not a simple thing when it comes to bills and this is no different. We don't want to see a veto and get nothing. We all need to be patient on this one and wait.
It should happen and come Jan 1 we will have the right to carry almost anywhere in the USA.
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  #651  
Old 05-30-2011, 4:05 PM
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There's not much difference between the bill that missed by 2 votes last year and the Stearns bill this year. I believe the difference was last years bill probably would not include DC-the wording (if I recall) said "a state that issues CC permits", while the Stearns bill is "has a statute". That could be changed, or it could be changed to only cover home-state residence permits. Possibly language added to also cover territories? Maybe 21 year age requirement? Language for GFSZ? Modification to allow OC/carry of other weapons if state law allows?
Not sure what else could be tweaked without risking the whole thing.
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  #652  
Old 05-30-2011, 5:17 PM
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I agree with the astute analyses here, but are we sure that Obama would veto it as a standalone bill? I think he's a cannier politician than to openly antagonize the evil insurrectionist assault-weapon-pushing gun lobby! Heck, Reagan signed the Hughes Amendment, Bush said he'd sign a renewed AWB, and Cheney has openly pushed for it. "Pro-gun" and "anti-gun" can be rather malleable terms when a minor issue like ours is compared to the real pressing problems of the time, like our country's total bankruptcy. It's definitely safer to attach it to a must-pass bill, but it might not be the disaster some think if it gets past the senate Dems as a standalone bill and awaits Obama's signature. Just a thought, and I could easily be wrong of course.
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  #653  
Old 05-30-2011, 9:35 PM
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I agree with the astute analyses here, but are we sure that Obama would veto it as a standalone bill?
Absolutely.

When gun control is the issue, most Democrats would rather lose the election than sign a gun rights bill. Ann Richards was the governor of gun-crazy Texas and she vetoed a CCW law. Let me repeat, in Texas! She must have known it would cost her the election, and that the next governor would sign it, and she vetoed in anyway. Obama and must other Democratic politicians would do the same, given the same choice.
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  #654  
Old 05-30-2011, 9:51 PM
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There's not much difference between the bill that missed by 2 votes last year and the Stearns bill this year. I believe the difference was last years bill probably would not include DC-the wording (if I recall) said "a state that issues CC permits", while the Stearns bill is "has a statute". That could be changed, or it could be changed to only cover home-state residence permits. Possibly language added to also cover territories? Maybe 21 year age requirement? Language for GFSZ? Modification to allow OC/carry of other weapons if state law allows?
Not sure what else could be tweaked without risking the whole thing.
Let's not go into the specifics of what the new language may say at the moment. A bill would already cover territories because if you look at 18USC921, "State" includes territories and DC.

The only "pressure" that should occur at this time is getting as many co-sponsors to this bill as we can. We have 31 Democrats on the roster. My personal goal with this bill is to get 250 co-sponsors. We need that large amount in order to show the squishy Senators who may be tempted to vote no will know it'll actually pass if they pass it once with no effect (like what happened last time). The action is in the Senate, but we need as many co-sponsors in the House as we can.

Get to work, people.
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  #655  
Old 05-31-2011, 12:44 AM
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Definitely work on any House members that co-sponsored the bill last year that haven't this year(if there are any left).
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  #656  
Old 05-31-2011, 12:56 AM
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I agree with Patrick-2 and CCWFacts...
its not a simple thing when it comes to bills and this is no different. We don't want to see a veto and get nothing. We all need to be patient on this one and wait.
It should happen and come Jan 1 we will have the right to carry almost anywhere in the USA.
Actually I believe that the bill takes effect 90 days after it's signed into law
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I want Blood for Oil. Heck I want Blood for Oil over hand wringing sentiment!
^
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  #657  
Old 05-31-2011, 3:56 AM
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I agree with the astute analyses here, but are we sure that Obama would veto it as a standalone bill? I think he's a cannier politician than to openly antagonize the evil insurrectionist assault-weapon-pushing gun lobby! Heck, Reagan signed the Hughes Amendment, Bush said he'd sign a renewed AWB, and Cheney has openly pushed for it. "Pro-gun" and "anti-gun" can be rather malleable terms when a minor issue like ours is compared to the real pressing problems of the time, like our country's total bankruptcy. It's definitely safer to attach it to a must-pass bill, but it might not be the disaster some think if it gets past the senate Dems as a standalone bill and awaits Obama's signature. Just a thought, and I could easily be wrong of course.
Remind me again who Reagan, Bush 41, and Bush 43 nominated to SCOTUS. Oh yeah, the five justices that voted for Heller and McDonald. Now remind again who Obama nominated. That should tell you how he would react to a standalone bill.
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  #658  
Old 06-01-2011, 4:14 AM
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There was a test vote in the House yesterday on a "clean" debt ceiling hike and it failed, as expected.

This vote was what Obama wanted: a debt ceiling hike with no riders or amendments. The point of the exercise was to demonstrate that no such bill could get out of the House. Obama can no longer claim Republicans are holding a clean bill hostage - they had the vote and even Democrats opposed it.

So now the debate begins over just what can be attached to the bill. Will it be a straight bill with all the fiscal reductions in place in the text and no amendments allowed? Or will it be a free-for-all like the last continuing resolution (531 amendments offerred and voted on in rapid-fire fashion)?

I think it is somewhere in between: some debt reduction made part of the original text (Medicare) and then open to amendments. I think they have no choice but to allow the free-for-all. Too many House members are going to get creamed for voting to up the debt - an open amendment process lets them put forth meaningful options even if they get struck down. At least they can claim they tried.

As always, the Senate is where the action on reciprocity will take place. The House is assured. We need to watch that chamber and what they allow. There is a chance that the House attaches 822 as an amendment to the bill, then forwards the whole package to the Senate for debate and vote. We'll see.

There are a lot of ways this could go. And while we all talk of the debt ceiling bill, the simple fact is it could go onto a defense emergency authorization bill or something else.

But the short-story of this post: if reciprocity is destined for the debt-ceiling bill, then a "clean" bill is off the table. Amendments will almost surely be allowed. That is a step in the right direction for us. But we need to keep an eye on the Senate.
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  #659  
Old 06-01-2011, 5:12 AM
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Actually I believe that the bill takes effect 90 days after it's signed into law
to be honest I wasn't sure what the effective date would be, I just knew Jan 1 would be safe and fairly close. example...If passed late August (like most people think) then 90 days would be late Nov.
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Old 06-01-2011, 7:47 AM
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There was a test vote in the House yesterday on a "clean" debt ceiling hike and it failed, as expected.
Yup, good explanation. Here's an LA Times article on it. The "clean" bill crashed and burned and the Republicans were clever to force a vote on a bill they planned to vote against.

LET THE AMENDMENT WARS BEGIN!

It's going to be an exciting month in Congress. Hovering over all of this is the idea that there are some Republicans who think that not raising the debt ceiling might not be so bad, so this is brinksmanship tainted with possibility.
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  #661  
Old 06-01-2011, 9:40 AM
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I spoke with James yesterday, and asked him if this was going to be scheduled, and he said not yet, but once they are ready, they will get it out of the sub-committee, committee, and the House floor, and into the Senate. He said (again) that it will have no trouble getting out of the House, and that it's planned, they just need to find the right time to put it on the schedule, maybe when the Senate is ready to vote on this DC bill, or something "must sign".

While writing to your Reps & Senators, you might also write to some of the 2A organizations. A letter is getting faxed to GOA today, asking them to make it part of their agenda to support this bill.

James told me that getting as many organizations to jump onboard this bill is more helpful than anything at this point.

Here's a list:

Some of these listed above might not be able to get involved politically, but some can. Although a few here & there might not be smiling on GOA, I'm still working on them for now. They are more of a "no compromise, repeal every GC reg" type of organization, so we need to get more people telling them "baby steps" for now... Any better ideas always welcome here.

Erik.
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  #662  
Old 06-01-2011, 11:30 AM
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Im glad it got shot down last night. As much as I would love to see 822 get passed, I do not know if it will be worth it, for all the other stuff that could be added ie bridges to nowhere, public radio money, money for planned parenthood, this could be pandoras box of bills
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:52 AM
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Im glad it got shot down last night. As much as I would love to see 822 get passed, I do not know if it will be worth it, for all the other stuff that could be added ie bridges to nowhere, public radio money, money for planned parenthood, this could be pandoras box of bills
It didn't get shot down. They just didn't let the bill through without making any changes to it first. A good thing none the less.
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Old 06-01-2011, 3:47 PM
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If they're tax-exempt, are they barred from actively supporting legislation?

I know the NRA is supporting this, and they are not tax exempt.
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Old 06-01-2011, 3:53 PM
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^^^^NRA-ILA. (I think that's correct )
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Old 06-01-2011, 4:28 PM
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It didn't get shot down. They just didn't let the bill through without making any changes to it first. A good thing none the less.
What I meant was, I was glad that it went through as a clean bill, without stipulations to cut spending.
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Old 06-01-2011, 7:41 PM
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What I meant was, I was glad that it went through as a clean bill, without stipulations to cut spending.
It was put up for a vote as a clean bill and it did not pass. Now it will be resubmitted but open to amendment this time.
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Old 06-01-2011, 7:55 PM
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Im glad it got shot down last night. As much as I would love to see 822 get passed, I do not know if it will be worth it, for all the other stuff that could be added ie bridges to nowhere, public radio money, money for planned parenthood, this could be pandoras box of bills
This, my friends, is why Exhibit A of why gun owners tend to be their own worst enemies.

The ability to protect your own life>Money
Self Defense>Money

I'll trade another year of Planned Parenthood funding, public radio money, and so on for the complete and total destruction of the gun control movement in this country, as well as the added bonus of being able to protect myself and those I love while traveling to California, New York, New Jersey, etc.

-Gray
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Old 06-01-2011, 8:40 PM
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Im glad it got shot down last night. As much as I would love to see 822 get passed, I do not know if it will be worth it, for all the other stuff that could be added ie bridges to nowhere, public radio money, money for planned parenthood, this could be pandoras box of bills
Wow...

"Let me look into my crystal ball, I see planned parenthood, NPR, bridges, and and and.... POOF, it’s gone......." Oh well, let me justify my acceptance of this legislative failure through supposition...
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Old 06-02-2011, 4:34 AM
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This, my friends, is why Exhibit A of why gun owners tend to be their own worst enemies.

The ability to protect your own life>Money
Self Defense>Money

I'll trade another year of Planned Parenthood funding, public radio money, and so on for the complete and total destruction of the gun control movement in this country, as well as the added bonus of being able to protect myself and those I love while traveling to California, New York, New Jersey, etc.

-Gray

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  #671  
Old 06-02-2011, 5:15 AM
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I'll trade another year of Planned Parenthood funding, public radio money, and so on for the complete and total destruction of the gun control movement in this country, as well as the added bonus of being able to protect myself and those I love while traveling to California, New York, New Jersey, etc.
This.

Guys, we have to restore the foundation first before we can start restoring the rest of the house. The 2nd Amendment is the foundation. If regaining that means tossing a bit more printed money into the fire, then so be it. For if we fail to restore the foundation, the rest of the house will fall over, guaranteed.

The window of opportunity is small, so keep your eyes on the ball.
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Old 06-02-2011, 7:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
I'll trade another year of Planned Parenthood funding, public radio money, and so on for the complete and total destruction of the gun control movement in this country, as well as the added bonus of being able to protect myself and those I love while traveling to California, New York, New Jersey, etc.
Ditto. The reason why the fight over gun rights is so passionate isn't about guns or public safety. It's because gun owners realize that they don't need to depend on the state for basic personal safety, and then they start wondering what else they might not need from the state, and (for liberals and SEIU) that's a dangerous thought path. They might also decide they don't need to get their medical care, retirement planning, etc from the state and if enough Americans started thinking that way, it would undo the whole New Deal and Great Society.

That's what this is about and that's why I put gun rights, especially CCW, in the #1 position.
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  #673  
Old 06-02-2011, 7:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
This, my friends, is why Exhibit A of why gun owners tend to be their own worst enemies.

The ability to protect your own life>Money
Self Defense>Money

I'll trade another year of Planned Parenthood funding, public radio money, and so on for the complete and total destruction of the gun control movement in this country, as well as the added bonus of being able to protect myself and those I love while traveling to California, New York, New Jersey, etc.

-Gray
If you can't see the truth in this statement, then we're screwed. I'd let Obama do another round of Cash for clunkers, and another banker bailout if it guaranteed my right to carry in every state of the union.
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Old 06-02-2011, 8:05 AM
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Ditto. The reason why the fight over gun rights is so passionate isn't about guns or public safety. It's because gun owners realize that they don't need to depend on the state for basic personal safety, and then they start wondering what else they might not need from the state, and (for liberals and SEIU) that's a dangerous thought path. They might also decide they don't need to get their medical care, retirement planning, etc from the state and if enough Americans started thinking that way, it would undo the whole New Deal and Great Society.

That's what this is about and that's why I put gun rights, especially CCW, in the #1 position.
Indeed.

Willing to trade away trillions in debt for our grandchildren to get stuck for some short term comfort for us today is what's gotten us into this mess.
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  #675  
Old 06-02-2011, 10:45 PM
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As much as I want to see this happen Uxi is right....
Not worth trading away trillions in debt for our grandchildren to get stuck for some short term comfort for us today is what's gotten us into this mess.
This is probably how we lost many of our 2nd amendment rights was to add-ons to previous bills. Lets not compound problem.

Again let me say I WANT THIS TO PASS
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  #676  
Old 06-02-2011, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Uxi View Post
Indeed.

Willing to trade away trillions in debt for our grandchildren to get stuck for some short term comfort for us today is what's gotten us into this mess.
I'll say this again:

The ability to save your own life>Money

Reciprocity will not pass on it's own accord as it's own bill where it faces certain veto and no chance of override. Putting it either in the debt ceiling bill, or a budget authorization is the only way to shield it from a certain veto. This method was done to get us the ability to carry inside of a national park (amendment to the CARD Act in 2009).

Lives of yourself and your loved ones is eminently more important than fiscal issues.

Life>Money

Last edited by Gray Peterson; 06-02-2011 at 11:06 PM..
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  #677  
Old 06-02-2011, 11:10 PM
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As much as I want to see this happen Uxi is right....
Not worth trading away trillions in debt for our grandchildren to get stuck for some short term comfort for us today is what's gotten us into this mess.
This is probably how we lost many of our 2nd amendment rights was to add-ons to previous bills. Lets not compound problem.

Again let me say I WANT THIS TO PASS
The bill will not pass independently without attachment to an authorization. How many tourists and other travelers have to be victimized, assaulted, raped, and murdered while waiting for the perfect time for a singular bill to be signed by the President many years from now, considering that divided governance is the norm rather than the exception?
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  #678  
Old 06-03-2011, 2:35 AM
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A debt ceiling increase will eventually pass or no service man will ever be paid again, nor Social Security check sent out. It's a done deal. No matter your ideals on the matter, the government must pass it.

So, with that understanding, why not get our rights back at the same time?
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  #679  
Old 06-03-2011, 3:44 AM
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Completely agree with Gray Peterson.

Safety > money.

We're so far screwed with the money situation anyway we might as well have some gun rights to show for it
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  #680  
Old 06-03-2011, 4:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
The bill will not pass independently without attachment to an authorization. How many tourists and other travelers have to be victimized, assaulted, raped, and murdered while waiting for the perfect time for a singular bill to be signed by the President many years from now, considering that divided governance is the norm rather than the exception?
I agree and understand the bill will not pass as a Stand-a-lone bill, that said let's not compound our problems....1 good attachment is not worth having 100 bad attachments that it screws us for generations to come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post
Completely agree with Gray Peterson.

Safety > money.

We're so far screwed with the money situation anyway we might as well have some gun rights to show for it

It's this narrow minded thinking that got us in this fiscal crisis to begin with. If everyone says screw it, its already screwed let the next generation deal with it then where will our great nation be in the next 50-100 years.

Has anyone ever heard of delayed gratification? To many people ONLY think of the HERE AND NOW and that is a serious problem.

Again let me restate I do want to see this pass but not at the cost of 100 bad attachments.
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Keep in mind If you get stopped by a game warden or other LEO and you say "well so and so on CalGuns said that this was ok and legal" That warden or LEO is gonna laugh at you and cite you.
Advice here is mostly good advice but its best to familiarize yourself with the laws & if needed contact DFW. or local Law Enforcement

Always confirm it for yourself. Ignorance is no excuse.

Contact the Governor now
http://govnews.ca.gov/gov39mail/mail.php
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