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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 05-08-2011, 11:31 AM
oaklander oaklander is offline
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Smile Gun Rights: "Melting Pot" vs. "Salad Bowl"

OK guys and gals - here's another quick thought - and PLEASE DISCUSS. I/we can't help unless I/we see what people want.

-------------

The metaphor for immigration for a long time WAS the "melting pot." The idea was to get people to come to our country and "borg" them into becoming little cookie cutter british/scots.

The newer metaphor is "salad bowl" - the idea is people come here, and mix together - but keep some of their original flavor.

The newer one is the one I like, since if we took the earlier "melting pot" idea to its logical extreme, we'd still be eating fairly boring English food, and we would be an overly polite society. We'd also end up as a socialist country - since the concept of being "polite" ALWAYS ends up in socialism.

(I can explain this more, if anyone wants.)

What we have now is pretty awesome - we have all sorts of neat food, interesting people, cool holidays - and YES - we have some ethnic tension. But again, that keeps things interesting. It also makes us strong, as a country.

(I can explain this more, if anyone wants.)

NOW - we are seeing the same thing in the civil rights movement here:

There are some of us who want to just totally borg everyone into a single group. And there are some of us (me) who want a salad bowl.

Let me explain why:

All of the different groups in CA actually give us great strength!!!

Although one "camp" might do something to tee-off another "camp" - in general, we tend to already work together. And because we represent a diverse set of opinions, skills, and viewpoints - we actually get a LOT of stuff done!!!!

Let me put it another way. If "gun rights" were a town - there are SOME people who would want that town to just have one store (Wal*Mart). There's other folks like me who want to have a bunch of different stores. Maybe we can have a "merchants' association" or something like that - but even THAT is really somewhat of a waste of time.

What we have now is PERFECT:

We have the larger national chains, we have the smaller regional chains, and we have the mom-and-pops.

IF ANYTHING, all we need are better communications among the "stores." In a case like this, the best way to do things would be to have a BBQ (or party) now and then, and let the various store owners, managers, and patrons get together and hang out.

That's what me and other people are trying to do.

We are not trying to form a merchants association, nor are we trying to get everyone to sell out to Wal*Mart.

In the gun rights world, there is NOT a Wal*Mart anyways - we already HAVE a large "national chain" - and it ROCKS - since unlike Wal*Mart, it does not just come into town and borg all the small merchants.

Does this make sense?

Again, I'm still drinking my first cup of coffee (or kool-aid?)


Last edited by oaklander; 05-08-2011 at 11:35 AM..
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:04 PM
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Think this makes sense. I'm not moving from the metaphor to the concrete app smoothly, probably because I had way too much coffee and am not focusing.

Sounds like one thing you're alluding to is NRA, CRPA, CalGuns Found., etc. Yeah, I think we need them all and need them not to be identical. I greatly appreciate what they do for me/us collectively, and that they undoubtedly accomplish more as they are than if they were melted together as a single entity. When they cooperate together their different strengths frequently enhance the outcome.

Likewise, if your thinking includes groups with different interests within the gun rights community (hunters, bullseye shooters, defensive handgunners, etc.), then yes I think that's healthy. We need one another both from a "hang together or hang separately" standpoint, but also from a learning and broadening horizons standpoint.

Hope that's somewhere within the ballpark of the question you're posing.
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:21 PM
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Poll?
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:25 PM
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I'm also a subscriber to the 'salad bowl' ideology and I like this idea, but I do have one request.

I'm all for diversity and whatnot, but can we leave the mall ninjas out of this one?
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:30 PM
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Default My take.

I have a similar take, although my spin goes directly to the Declaration of Independence and defining what it means to be an an American.

To me, you are either an American or an AINO(American in Name Only).

To me, it is straight forward.

The principles espoused in the Declaration of Independence is that we were all born with inalienable rights, that governments get their powers from the consent of the governed and that when governments become destructive to people's rights, that it is not only the right of the people, but the duty of the people to change their government.

It doesn't matter to me what a person's race, color, creed, political affiliation, sex, sexual or gender association is.

What matters to me is do they support the values that they birth to our country.

Our diversity is both our strength and our weakness. It is our strenght in that we can tap into the creative energies of all people and groups, we get what I call a synergestic multiplying effect.

In Nicki Math, that means the synergestic creative effect of 1+1+1+1 does not equal 4, rather it equals 32.

To be able to work diversely means you are "Cool". To deliberately keep yourself isolated in your own little group means you are a "Fool".

"Fear" is what our opponents use to try to turn the "Public on us".
Of course their "fear" is based on "False Evidence Appearing Real".

Our American values will not class with most people's cultures unless they support a police state.

We do have to tweek how we present our message to different groups, for instance, many cultures tend to support the "greater good" over "individual rights".

Perhaps what we need to do is specifically do is see how many members on this board don't meet the stereotypical gun owner profile and then see if they will be willing to take the lead with our help in reaching their communities.

The Asian community for instance has a serious problem with home invasion robberies and they are silent victims.

Many cultures don't trust the police because in their home countries, there is not much difference between the police and criminals.

If I was in their situation and someone told me that I could legally arm and defend myself and was willing to introduce me to people to show me how to do it, I would be very interested myself.

These "Salad Bowl" approach is an interesting concept because it would allow us to zero in on common values, yet allow people to retain who they are.

Nicki
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:37 PM
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Yes. Let's leave 'em out!!!!

Of course, about 70 percent of the companies that make parts for AR15's would go out of business!!!

I kid!!!!!

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Originally Posted by PsychGuy274 View Post
I'm also a subscriber to the 'salad bowl' ideology and I like this idea, but I do have one request.

I'm all for diversity and whatnot, but can we leave the mall ninjas out of this one?
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:41 PM
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I'm liking where this is going!

Yes - and Nicki nailed it. . .

"Our differences become our power" - is another way to say it.

This is in complete alliance with the concept of asymmetrical "conflict." It's easy to beat a single "army." It's much harder to beat a bunch of small armies who all "fight" differently.

Disclaimer: I am referring to the political, legal, and PR "war" here - NOT actual armed conflict!!!! Jeez guys!!!!

Again, this is all just common sense. . .
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Old 05-08-2011, 1:46 PM
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I can't stand the idea of a melting pot. People are unique and should remain that way.

A salad bowl idea is great and the gun community is a great example of that. Just look at us here on calguns for many examples of very different people all comingling and sharing in a common hobby.

Recognize similarities and enjoy them together, but acknowledge differences and celebrate them as well. We are strong because of our diversity.

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Old 05-08-2011, 2:46 PM
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I think even the salad bowl metaphor is inaccurate. I think we're more like a TV dinner: each part of the meal separated into its own little individual compartment, with only a little bit of mixing at the edges where some runs over during cooking, but mostly staying segregated.
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Old 05-08-2011, 2:50 PM
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Where you get strength is not in a salad but in a composite.
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Old 05-08-2011, 3:10 PM
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The problem with a "salad bowl" or "tv dinner" idea for immigrants is that our newer immigrants using this philosophy never think of themselves as "Americans". They are still Vietnamese or Mexican or German or Irish or whatever.

I actually had a couple of Hispanic kids this morning in Sunday School class tell me they would NEVER be Americans (and they are second generation here), because only white-skinned people are Americans. They would always consider themselves to be Mexican because of their skin color. I tried to explain to them that they were born here and therefore were Americans, but that concept was lost on them.

I blame the public school system and our politicians for being so politically correct that they get lost in the bottom of the (salad) bowl or (melting) pot.

The commonality of the melting pot culture has all but been lost. The Borg make everyone the same (socialism), but the melting pot causes a slight, but constant adaptation or change in our culture.

BTW, the melting pot culture would take the boring British food and spice it up a little with different cultural spices and side dishes..... to become a new American dish.
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Old 05-08-2011, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by GaryV View Post
I think even the salad bowl metaphor is inaccurate. I think we're more like a TV dinner: each part of the meal separated into its own little individual compartment, with only a little bit of mixing at the edges where some runs over during cooking, but mostly staying segregated.
Defenitly more accurate. Include the fact that none of the sides go along with the main course, and the whole thing gives you gas and makes you sick.

However, we will still eat the damn thing because if you are eating a TV dinner, its because you dont have anything better.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by GaryV View Post
I think even the salad bowl metaphor is inaccurate. I think we're more like a TV dinner: each part of the meal separated into its own little individual compartment, with only a little bit of mixing at the edges where some runs over during cooking, but mostly staying segregated.
Yeah. And that's BAD.

Until we mix together into a salad, we cannot be strong. Like a composite material.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:18 AM
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Yeah. And that's BAD.

Until we mix together into a salad, we cannot be strong. Like a composite material.
I think you mean tossed, you don't "mix" a salad.

Although personally, I wouldn't want to be responsible for tossing the salad of America in it's current state.

Heh.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:22 AM
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Dang it!

You guys are now making me hungry!!!!

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Old 05-09-2011, 11:24 AM
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I think the most destructive part of the gun community is the "I own a gun but..." group. I have talked with a few and they are almost as bad as Brady bunchers except they own a 12 gauge. If they can be brought over to our side I think they would increase our power a lot.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:26 AM
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Go heavy on the salad dressing
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:31 AM
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I think the most destructive part of the gun community is the "I own a gun but..." group.
I see that among some of my gun-owning friends who aren't on Calguns although I don't view it as being destructive, but it is apathetic. Those are the same people who initially wave me off at the Calguns booth until I mention that redundant gun laws and ammo restrictions will affect them regardless of them saying they don't want to get involved and that they're not the targets.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:36 AM
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I see that among some of my gun-owning friends who aren't on Calguns although I don't view it as being destructive, but it is apathetic. Those are the same people who initially wave me off at the Calguns booth until I mention that redundant gun laws and ammo restrictions will affect them regardless of them saying they don't want to get involved and that they're not the targets.
I see them as destructive because they don't fully support the right. They only care if the laws come after them.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:59 AM
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I disagree. While the idea of a "salad bowl" might work well for things like civil rights where it is important that we have a "big tent" to mix metaphors. I believe that the fact we are moving away from the "melting pot" model for immigration and assimilation has done significant damage to our society. The problem is that not only do the newcomers not assimilate to our existing society they don't contribute their own culture and experiences with the rest of society. It isn't that I want all of society to look like and act like me, I want society as a whole to be moving the same directions with the same goals and ideals. When we start the "salad bowl" you get classes taught in non-English languages as a norm rather than as a tool for building English competency. This leads to less and less interaction and more and more fractioning. There's a lesson to be learned in the term Balkanization.
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:16 PM
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I don't really see any mixing going on.

If you aren't an illegal immigrant I could care less if you cook tacos or celebrate newyears on the wrong day. I'm even OK with Ethiopians despite the fact that their bread tastes like sweaty gym socks.

The thing we don't mix on is the thing we all agree about, civil rights.
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:25 PM
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I thought the melting pot was more like we all have a very similar base (being american, morals, family values, personal liberty, responsibility) but we all add something unique and all our flavors mix and blend (like a stew, chili, or even salsa) to make something unique and special. Without all these things we would be boring and bland but we all adopt the same basic values while keeping a part of the original culture. Like texmex food...where it. takes alot of the mexican food culture and puts an american spin on it.
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:48 PM
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Oaklander, I believe, as do others it seems, that your interpretation of the Melting Pot is off.

When you melt something down it loses its form but it remains what it was, only now, mixed with other materials. Iron remains Iron but mixes with carbon and becomes Steel. Iron and Oxygen and Carbon and Molybdenum and Chromium mix to become Chrome-Moly Steel, a great alloy. The Melting Pot Metaphor is a fundamentally ideal one.

In a melting pot separate metals alloy to become something greater than they were before, their distinctiveness added to each other and mixed to form something amazing. Also, during the melting, slag is produced and separates to the top where it can be removed. So impurities, or baggage, of the old is left behind. The fire is refining, the melting strengthening. The bad of the old is let go, the good is kept and added into the whole, the whole becomes stronger and a new again.

Distinctive waves of Melting Pot integration of cultures created the American Strength that persisted through two world wars. The Salad metaphor has been indicative of the destruction of a system that makes stronger and stronger alloys. Salads are "tossed" have no intermixing between parts, though side by side they do not interact and barely touch. The materials in the Salad remain unique unto each other and the whole is neither more nor less than before. The bad is not separated out but remains as spots on your lettuce. A salad has no internal integrity or strength. It is weak and its contents can be shifted by simple motion.

America today is a Mixed Salad.
America once was Chrome-Moly Steel.
Which would you rather be?

The conflicts and suffering that each wave of immigrant suffered in the USA (they suffered) was the refining fire. If handled correctly by the society it would burn away the edges that would have held that group distinct and separate from their new culture. It hurt, it cost lives, but in every ingot, there is slag to be removed. Being melted is not fun, no one wants it, and rightly so. But WANTING something or not does not define its benefit in the long or short term. This is especially true of the individual perspective. No one wants suffering, but the suffering makes us stronger, the hardships make us hunger for something better. They become the underlying fuel driving us to make it better. Something happened, and it happened in the 90s. We suddenly decided as a society that we were that long sought "better". We ground to a halt as a culture and to be honest have been only self destructive since then whether governmentally or socially or as individuals with our life goals. After all, why go through the melting down when you are just fine as is and can live as a piece in a Salad?
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Old 05-09-2011, 1:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
... metaphor for immigration for a long time WAS the "melting pot." The idea was to get people to come to our country and "borg" them into becoming little cookie cutter british/scots.

The newer metaphor is "salad bowl" - the idea is people come here, and mix together - but keep some of their original flavor.
I reject your main premise from the start. The ORIGINAL "melting pot" idea was much closer to what you describe as the "salad bowl". I've read material dating back to the founding of the country (and prior) which supports this notion philosophically and reports it as a historical phenomenon. It was one of the primary strengths De Tocqueville noted about our nation.

The current "salad bowl" nonsense centers around the idea that everyone maintain almost EVERY aspect of their original cultural customs, mores and imperatives.

The melting pot leads to a harmonious sharing of differences,but a common sense of national identity and a shared common culture. The salad bowl leads to Balkanization and social division.

With these corrections in place, I agree with everything else.
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Old 05-09-2011, 1:38 PM
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Originally Posted by meaty-btz View Post
Oaklander, I believe, as do others it seems, that your interpretation of the Melting Pot is off.

When you melt something down it loses its form but it remains what it was, only now, mixed with other materials. Iron remains Iron but mixes with carbon and becomes Steel. Iron and Oxygen and Carbon and Molybdenum and Chromium mix to become Chrome-Moly Steel, a great alloy. The Melting Pot Metaphor is a fundamentally ideal one.

In a melting pot separate metals alloy to become something greater than they were before, their distinctiveness added to each other and mixed to form something amazing. Also, during the melting, slag is produced and separates to the top where it can be removed. So impurities, or baggage, of the old is left behind. The fire is refining, the melting strengthening. The bad of the old is let go, the good is kept and added into the whole, the whole becomes stronger and a new again.

Distinctive waves of Melting Pot integration of cultures created the American Strength that persisted through two world wars. The Salad metaphor has been indicative of the destruction of a system that makes stronger and stronger alloys. Salads are "tossed" have no intermixing between parts, though side by side they do not interact and barely touch. The materials in the Salad remain unique unto each other and the whole is neither more nor less than before. The bad is not separated out but remains as spots on your lettuce. A salad has no internal integrity or strength. It is weak and its contents can be shifted by simple motion.

America today is a Mixed Salad.
America once was Chrome-Moly Steel.
Which would you rather be?

The conflicts and suffering that each wave of immigrant suffered in the USA (they suffered) was the refining fire. If handled correctly by the society it would burn away the edges that would have held that group distinct and separate from their new culture. It hurt, it cost lives, but in every ingot, there is slag to be removed. Being melted is not fun, no one wants it, and rightly so. But WANTING something or not does not define its benefit in the long or short term. This is especially true of the individual perspective. No one wants suffering, but the suffering makes us stronger, the hardships make us hunger for something better. They become the underlying fuel driving us to make it better. Something happened, and it happened in the 90s. We suddenly decided as a society that we were that long sought "better". We ground to a halt as a culture and to be honest have been only self destructive since then whether governmentally or socially or as individuals with our life goals. After all, why go through the melting down when you are just fine as is and can live as a piece in a Salad?
That's a really cool metaphor.

FYI the Canadians have what they call "a mosaic". This new "salad bowl" sounds a lot like that. I prefer the melting pot. You come to America to become American, not to stay whatever-the-f%$# you were. And in the process, you change what American means, just a little bit. It's a stronger system. The "salad bowl" will result in endless segregated ethnic tension, or worse, civil war.
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Old 05-09-2011, 1:49 PM
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That's a really cool metaphor.

FYI the Canadians have what they call "a mosaic". This new "salad bowl" sounds a lot like that. I prefer the melting pot. You come to America to become American, not to stay whatever-the-f%$# you were. And in the process, you change what American means, just a little bit. It's a stronger system. The "salad bowl" will result in endless segregated ethnic tension, or worse, civil war.
Indeed,
except that Canada's Mosaic at least metaphorically means the sum is greater than the parts. In a mosaic, distinct pieces are conjoined and fitted closely together. They interlock and support each other as a unified whole and become a new and greater thing. They become Art. The small fragments and pieces of pottery and clay and paint are fitted into a greater Art. As far as metaphors go, its not half bad. I prefer the melting pot because my perspective is about strength and alloys and metals, but I can appreciate the concept of a Mosaic even if they are living it more like a Tossed Salad. A mosaic, while beautiful and even inspiring, has not substance or strength and needs constant maintenance to replace pieces as they fall out or are faded and chipped. A Mosaic Metaphor assumes a constant and endless refreshing of the Social Fabric where new pieces replace those that "fall out". The Melting Pot assumes the Wave Immigration system where each wave is a new metal component of value whose addition will strengthen the alloy. What most people don't get is that to re-alloy the metal requires that ALL THE METAL ENTER THE POT, not just the FNG. This pattern has indeed been played out in our Nations actual history where new entries created social tension and where those tensions created heat and that heat melted the alloy of Current Culture as well as the New Culture to allow them to blend and through that process, the slag would float to the top to be skimmed and discarded. The end result was new metal, fresh, stronger, and a ready to move forward again.
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Old 05-09-2011, 1:54 PM
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Old 05-09-2011, 2:08 PM
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I will comment more when I digest my lunch. The chrome was not sitting well with the Thousand Island!
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Old 05-09-2011, 2:24 PM
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I will comment more when I digest my lunch. The chrome was not sitting well with the Thousand Island!
Dude, seriously, this is like showing a kick-*** trailer for a movie that wont be out for 3 years. Totally leaving us hanging.
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...but their exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level, and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom.
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Old 05-09-2011, 2:26 PM
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Wouldn't be Oak without the drama.

He does this for a living, remember...
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Old 05-09-2011, 2:42 PM
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There shouldnt be any groups. Groups are a socialist thing. Socialists excell on deviding people up into smaller groups that they can handle and cause rifts in between. The whole point of the melting pot is to make everyone WANT the same thing. Freedom. Not be the same.
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Old 05-10-2011, 7:52 AM
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The conflicts and suffering that each wave of immigrant suffered in the USA (they suffered) was the refining fire. If handled correctly by the society it would burn away the edges that would have held that group distinct and separate from their new culture. It hurt, it cost lives, but in every ingot, there is slag to be removed. Being melted is not fun, no one wants it, and rightly so. But WANTING something or not does not define its benefit in the long or short term. This is especially true of the individual perspective. No one wants suffering, but the suffering makes us stronger, the hardships make us hunger for something better. They become the underlying fuel driving us to make it better.
I think the idea you outline here is way too utilitarian. Suffering can often temper our souls and make them stronger. But I think your idea leads to the idea that it's right to oppress people whose cultures are different from ours, and inflict cruelty upon them. I cannot countenance such a thing.
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Old 05-10-2011, 7:54 AM
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So who has the croutans?
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:15 AM
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I think the idea you outline here is way too utilitarian. Suffering can often temper our souls and make them stronger. But I think your idea leads to the idea that it's right to oppress people whose cultures are different from ours, and inflict cruelty upon them. I cannot countenance such a thing.
Never is it RIGHT, it simply IS. Lets continue my metallurgical analysis of the situation.

While still hot, an alloy, no matter how strong once cooled is mailable and mixable. Once cooled an alloy often requires even more significant temperatures than initially to re-melt it. So while you can forge a very strong society, that society itself is often resistant to change as well by nature of itself. So it is with out originating culture in America. Strong cultures by nature are resistant to outside influences in general, good and bad.

You are attempting to apply morality retroactively when it simply cannot be. Each new immigrant wave in America has consistently occupied the lowest slot in society. Historically, that slot is reviled, hated, looked down on, and discriminated against.

This is of course a far more complex problem than any simple metaphor. There are nuances and economics and other things such as amount of open land and job markets that all influence things.

The point perhaps to make here is if you want Strength, it will come only from Trial by Fire because only through such tempering is strength had in humans. Period. If you want Beauty and High Maint, go Mosaic. It will be a beautiful culture no doubt but one that lacks any kind of inner strength. If you want Balkanization go salad bowl because even a Mosaic requires that the new pieces be chipped or shaped or painted to fit into the Big Picture. Salad Bowl is the Zero Cost option and it is the weakest and most divisive. Value comes at a Cost, that is the only way, anything less is a falsity or falsehood. Nothing is truly without cost in life. To believe otherwise is a delusion.
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...but their exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level, and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:12 PM
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You are attempting to apply morality retroactively when it simply cannot be. Each new immigrant wave in America has consistently occupied the lowest slot in society. Historically, that slot is reviled, hated, looked down on, and discriminated against.
Actually I'm trying to apply morality proactively to decide how I should behave from now on.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:23 PM
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I really have no desire to foment a flame-war here... but I think Meaty is essentially correct. It is in the nature of the species to be mistrustful of strangers. By that I mean that it is hard-coded into our genome. There are behavioral experiments which have accumulated empirical evidence of this. When any given human population is exposed to another population of any species, human or otherwise they will at first be unfavorably disposed to said population.

And if you think that we are supposed to be "above the baser instincts" then you can turn in your firearms and daggers and wands right now because that's exactly the same thing the disarmament folks are saying.

Now, having said that, I do believe that we have a responsibility to be open minded about that which we do not know or understand; the ability to learn at a spectacular pace is one of the things that sets our species apart... but I think it is a mistake to imagine that a generation or even a century or two has any practical effect on the "stuff" of which said species is made. We can't just all decide one day to "love all as one" and expect the world to follow suit. Nature doesn't work like that.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:29 PM
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Melting Pot = unified America

Salad Bowl = Balkanization and ethnic pressure groups dividing up the government pie.

No thanks: give me the melting pot: it worked for more than 200 years until we got "sensitive."
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:49 PM
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Actually, I agree with both of you.

Ideally, any culture should be seek to be Strong and yet be willing to and even desire to incorporate additional strength as it is found.

Going back to our Metallurgical Metaphors when selecting an Alloy for a product one considers many features about it. Often the Hardest Alloy is inappropriate for your application and in fact its use could be disastrous. Strength isn't just about hardness, its about ductility and many other features. Finding the balance is key to reaching towards an ideal existence as a society. If you become to Hard you break, if you become to soft you are crushed or bent. A good example of being to HARD could be said to be Ancient Sparta whose very strong culture was broken by its own nature. It was doomed because it as too stiff to change.


The issue we have today isn't that we are somehow more gracious or moral than in times past. Instead we are more self centered and consider ourselves perfect. We do not even go into the pot because we consider ourselves good enough. Into this Social Attitude comes the Latino Problem. Sure it sounds trite but try to divorce emotion and logic here and leave Nazis out of this. They are our current Immigrant Wave. The problem is they are entering into a culture that does not want to integrate so neither do they. It may seem chicken or egg scenario, as to who was first with not wanting to play along but the reality is both groups are equally responsible though we bear a greater burden because of how we chose to alter the social landscape of our nation to which the Immigrant Wave is entering. They are at the lowest social rung, and the typical reviling and hate and discrimination is yet again occurring as per human nature. Not one of us should be surprised. The difference here is that they are no longer integrating. So we have social conflict and rather than it leading towards a merger it instead is DIVERGING. We have started what amounts to a Culture War since neither side is at all interested in a merger. No one wants to filter the dross/slag out of the equation. That is what Salad Bowls lead too, Culture Wars. Culture Wars are bad because in a War, one or the other must in the end dominate or destroy the other. Any "peace" that is had is usually a temporary reprieve at best. Cultural Alliances are also possible wherein two or more cultures who are not in a dominance battle (invading each others territories of dominance) will join forces to dominate another culture. Point of Example being the War on Terror which is in fact a Culture War between the Allied Western Cultures and the Allied Muslim Cultures.

Lets get back to the Immigrant Issue. In a melting pot, no matter how critical the conflict the goal of the new material is to join as equals to the old material. They do not seek to "assert" their culture over or distinctly to that of the old culture but in stead are clamoring for a BUY IN to the dominant culture by exchanging hard work, suffering, and effort in equal to those that came before by which the existing cultural alloy judges the new one. If you have the new group demanding full recognition with no sacrifices the old alliance will view them with even greater hostility because you have become a Culture In Opposition, Cultural War has been declared. The FNG needs to remember how high a price everyone who came before had to pay to join with the larger American Fabric.

Its like people who look and see a wealthy business man and demand a lifestyle and comfort that said 60 year old man has but no one notices that he worked for 40 years 7 days a week 80 hours a week to get there.

As a culture we are like that, so is it any wonder the FNG has the same attitude? Remove the plank from your own eye before worrying about the speck in the others. A refrain from a song is like the banner truth of our time: We all want love, we all want honor, no one wants to pay the asking price.

We have mountains of debt, no one wants to pay it.
We have mountains of pollution, no one wants to make the sacrifices or changes needed to clean it
We have huge economic problems but no one wants to deal with it
We have a huge social problem in our culture today and no one wants to solve it.

Why? Because to solve any of the above would require sacrifice, hardships, endurance, mental fortitude, and it would take at least a generation so that all your work would not be of any benefit to you but instead to your descendants only. We live only for ourselves and the now and we are racing down the path of our own destruction because of it.

A good perspective comes from HG Wells in the statement:
"By the toll of a billion deaths man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against all comers"

Replace "of the earth" with Freedom or America or whatever you wish. Our today is built on the sacrifices and hardships of those who have come before us culturally, nationally, and as a species. It is this web-work throughout history of both our most base wrongs and greatest acts of nobility and sacrifice that we rise. This holds true no matter how far out or in you magnify the domain in question, person, home, family, clan, tribe, nation, race, species.
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...but their exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level, and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom.

Last edited by meaty-btz; 05-10-2011 at 12:59 PM..
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