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  #41  
Old 07-16-2009, 3:45 AM
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I have a question...

whats this all about?


Quote:
-the machinegun scar pin hole and the slotted right receiver rail must be removed-
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  #42  
Old 07-16-2009, 11:33 AM
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IIRC, the right side bolt guide rail on a full-auto AK is slotted for the sear to pass through it.
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  #43  
Old 07-16-2009, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
IIRC, the right side bolt guide rail on a full-auto AK is slotted for the sear to pass through it.
Is that illegal to use? A lot of people have Virgin kits that might come with those. I have not seen it brought up. I have only seen Oaklanders post on FCG parts.
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  #44  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technique View Post
Is that illegal to use? A lot of people have Virgin kits that might come with those. I have not seen it brought up. I have only seen Oaklanders post on FCG parts.
Based on that letter, I wouldn't use a slotted rail. I didn't realize that the virgin kits came with them. It may not have been mentioned by guys like Oaklander since the majority of people use demilled kits, in which the slot rail isn't included, and maybe they didn't even know that virgin kits included it.

I'd suggest doing some searches on some of the AK-centric forums to see what they say about using slotted rails in semi-auto builds.
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  #45  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:35 PM
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I am going to be researching this more. That letter was the first time I had seen anything about the rails being brought up.

and now for those as curious as I....a visual.


The lighter colored parts are AK builder...the darker, factory Yugo.
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Last edited by technique; 07-16-2009 at 12:39 PM..
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  #46  
Old 10-13-2009, 6:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Looking more closely at 27 CFR 478.92 you need to place your name, caliber, serial number and manufacturing location on any firearm you wish to be able to sell. A model designation appears optional.

-Gene
Link is no longer active....
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  #47  
Old 10-13-2009, 6:59 PM
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Just Goo "27 CFR 478.92"
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  #48  
Old 10-13-2009, 7:22 PM
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http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr478.92.htm
note that even though it only refers to "licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms", ATF has the opinion that it applies even for homebuilt firearms by non-licensees.
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  #49  
Old 10-13-2009, 7:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr478.92.htm
note that even though it only refers to "licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms", ATF has the opinion that it applies even for homebuilt firearms by non-licensees.
Gotcha...I am having a hard time convincing a few folks...I actually even included ^that^ in my post, but some people are still convinced that one can not sell a home built firearm....Even with supporting letters from the ATF on the subject...

I think they just don't understand the "mfg with *intent* to sell", as where you are required by law to have a mfg license/FFL 07.

They seem to be convinced that at NO point are you allowed to sell a homebuilt firearm...I have provided all the resources I can on the subject to support my claim the YES in fact you can legally sell a homebuilt firearm, and in doing so you need to follow the same rules as an FFL 07 at that point (engraving and such)...so long as you did not build it with the specific intent of selling there after....

Some people act like this is a new concept or something.
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  #50  
Old 11-30-2009, 10:11 PM
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This is a GREAT thread. Only thing I CANT find, is any legal language mentioning building a receiver from a "flat" and especially building an "ak style" pistol. Hope that makes sense? Just trying CMA with printed laws to keep in my case.
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  #51  
Old 12-24-2009, 10:32 AM
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I'm intrested in bulding a rifle from a flat..I've heard of build partys does any one know of any? Or where to get a good flat?
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  #52  
Old 12-24-2009, 10:35 AM
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I'm looking to build a rifle from a flat..I've heard of build partys from a kid at a local sacramento show.. does any one know of these get togethers? Any one know where to get a good flat or pre- bent? I'm in sacramento...thank you for any info...
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  #53  
Old 12-27-2009, 12:45 PM
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How many "firearms" can you home build. I.E. 1 ar, 1 1911, 1 ak Etc...
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  #54  
Old 12-27-2009, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heist1 View Post
I'm intrested in bulding a rifle from a flat..I've heard of build partys does any one know of any? Or where to get a good flat?
I'm a little far from you but, I am planning on hosting another BP in a couple of months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman323 View Post
How many "firearms" can you home build. I.E. 1 ar, 1 1911, 1 ak Etc...
How many would you like to build? There is no limit on the number of firearms you can build for personal use.
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  #55  
Old 12-31-2009, 3:31 PM
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I need a link or number of the actual code that says its ok for me as a non felonious citizen to build my own mac-11, AK, FAL, etc. and that i don't need to put any markings on it (i don't sell guns..only buy them). Maybe even an ATF letter or two. I'd like to print it out and keep it in the case with my new MAC i'm building. I'll probably also include copies of receipts for the various parts kits i bought to build it. Don't want Barney Fife thinking i filed off the markings or something stupid.

Thanks.

P.S. The letter in the first post is good but i'd like more back up on the issue.
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  #56  
Old 12-31-2009, 3:37 PM
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There is no Penal code that says it is ok for you to build your own firearms. The PC doesn't work that way, everything is legal unless specifically prohibited.

Same thing with required markings, there is no PC that states that a homebuilder must mark a firearm. The law does require licensed manufacturers to mark the firearms that they make, but it does not require the same of non-licensees.
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  #57  
Old 12-31-2009, 3:54 PM
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Ok thanks. So then the best thing would be to print some ATF letters that show its not illegal for my own peace of mind.
I see a lot of mentions of rifles and shotguns but not much being said on Pistols..why is that?
Also found the Firearms FAQ at the new ATF website.
Enjoy!
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/fire...parts-assembly

Also found this..its specifically deals with building firearms in CA.
http://savvysurvivor.com.cnchost.com...uilt_firea.htm
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  #58  
Old 01-05-2010, 12:42 PM
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so if i wanted to sell in a ppt a homebuilt ak pistol, i would need to mark them,

name,
serial #
city/state of mfg
caliber

that's it right?
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  #59  
Old 06-03-2010, 6:31 PM
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Smile HK91/MP5 Flats

I am new to Calguns.net. Found you while searching for info on building HK91/MP5 from flats. I wolud like to know a source for parts kits for both if available. I have a source for flats but if I cannot locate the parts kits they are useless. Also does anyone know the current skinny on when a flat becomes a firearm and the folded flat machinegun vs. semi-auto issue?
Thanks
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  #60  
Old 06-21-2010, 9:28 AM
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great sticky - Thank you HoffmanG
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  #61  
Old 06-22-2010, 9:35 PM
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If I put a serial number, place of manufacture, and a model #; would this not imply manufacture with intent to sell? I am thinking that leaving the receiver blank would indicate intent for personal use only. That or something like "Manufactured under Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 for personal use only" etched on receiver. Should/would this pass LEO scrutiny in an eCheck situation?
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  #62  
Old 06-22-2010, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
If I put a serial number, place of manufacture, and a model #; would this not imply manufacture with intent to sell? I am thinking that leaving the receiver blank would indicate intent for personal use only.
or, it could imply that you would wish to have some sort of identification on the firearm in case it was stolen.

Quote:
That or something like "Manufactured under Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 for personal use only" etched on receiver. Should/would this pass LEO scrutiny in an eCheck situation
your choice.
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  #63  
Old 10-15-2010, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
The question of "do I have to put a serial number" on my home built AK or other firearm has been coming up a lot recently.

Here is the law as I understand it with support below:

1. It is not required that you put the build location or a serial number on a firearm that you build at home.

2. You can not build a firearm at home with the intent to immediately sell it.

3. Prudence may dictate that you do want to place a serial number on the firearm as LEOs may not understand and think that you have obliterated a serial number which is illegal under both Federal and California law. I recommend your initials and a number - something like Redwood City, CA - GH-0001.

4. If years later you decide you want to sell your homebuilt rifle to someone else, you can, but it will require that it have a serial number and place of manufacture per Federal law.

5. Please be careful about the California definition of "zip gun" in PC 12020. Building a firearm that is the same design as a firearm that has been or is being sold commercially is safe but there are large and dangerous grey areas for designs that are not already in commerce. Building an AK, FAL, or AR is not a problem under the zip gun definition however.

6. DOJ BoF has opined that private individuals can manufacture non rostered handguns. However, I'm not 100% confident of their legal reasoning so do be careful in that arena.

7. Always be mindful that constructive possession does apply to machine gun parts. Never have a receiver that can accept FA FCGs and generally don't have FA FCG parts around period. Searching the forum will give you more information that at least one Calgunner has gotten into Federal hot water over FA fire control parts.

For clarification on the serial number issue please refer to this ATF letter:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BAT...2004-11-09.pdf

Hopefully this clears much of this area up.

-Gene
Does anyone have copies of letters like this with responses from CA DOJ? I'm trying to convince my father why home built AK's don't need a serial number. After this letter he believes me that may be true federally, but He still doesn't believe it is possible in California. Any help on specific letters/documents or CA Law?
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  #64  
Old 12-19-2010, 6:03 PM
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Does the name stamped on the build HAVE to be a person ,or could it be a corporation {LLC}?
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  #65  
Old 12-19-2010, 8:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bplvr View Post
Does the name stamped on the build HAVE to be a person ,or could it be a corporation {LLC}?
There is no requirement to mark your homebuilt firearms, however, if you ever want to sell it, it must be marked.

With that said, the "Manufacturer" or "Make" of the gun can be whatever you want to name it. It doesn't have to be your name, your business (unless you are a licensed manufacturer).

You can label it:

Bad MoFo Arms, Pretty Pink Pony mfg, Rainbow Ordnance Co., whatever you want
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Old 02-04-2011, 8:53 AM
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What is the appropriate depth for the numbers etc. to be engraved to? Only thing I've seen is .003" deep or 1/16" high, but the post was several years old and mentioned ATF changing those dimension at their whim. Also any specific CA requirements in that regard or just the ATF?
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Old 04-07-2011, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rust View Post
What is the appropriate depth for the numbers etc. to be engraved to? Only thing I've seen is .003" deep or 1/16" high, but the post was several years old and mentioned ATF changing those dimension at their whim. Also any specific CA requirements in that regard or just the ATF?
Bump for any information about this.
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:58 PM
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[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 2]
[Revised as of April 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR479.102]
[Page 188-189]
TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents
Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms
Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and
[[Page 189]]
(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be
measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.
The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of
the character impression bottoms (bases).

(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon
receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate,
showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder
the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize
other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter
application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving,
casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or
impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a
complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for
the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete
firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you
must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of
parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts
defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application
from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification
is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this
part.


as a note, the ATF NFA Handbook is available HERE, the issue is addressed in chapter 6 and 7...marking requirements are the same for both licensees and nonlicensees who manufacture a NFA firearm.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/

the ATF currently has this in thier regulations book under Chaper 7 "Manufacturing of NFA Firearms"

Section 7.4 The identification of firearms.

7.4.1 Serial numbers.
Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120

The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be
wholly unobstructed from plain view.

For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.

7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number?

Alpha characters (letters), for example a name,
are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or
letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number).

ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121

Deviations from this requirement have been found to
seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime.

7.4.2 Additional information.

Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view.

For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122

7.4.3 Measuring the depth of markings. The depth of all markings is measured from the flat surface
of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers is measured as the distance
between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).
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  #69  
Old 04-13-2011, 5:51 AM
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Thanks Roccobro that's what I was after.
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:09 PM
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This may seem rather a basic question, but since the margin for error is pretty steep I thought it should not go unasked.

Choosing to mark a home made AKM pattern rifle, is the following acceptable/defensible?

ROM AK
7.62X39
ZYX001
Hometown, CA

(where ZYX = initials)

More specifically asked: Do I have to add "model", "caliber", "serial no." etc.?

Common sense would dictate that it can be inferred by the markings, but is required to be spelled out?
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  #71  
Old 05-05-2011, 3:11 AM
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MyMalteseFalcon MyMalteseFalcon is offline
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I just recently did my first AK build with the help of a great guy here on the forum.

When asked what I wanted stamped on the receiver, I said I don't want anything stamped on it...only stamping on the receiver are the markings for safe, fire and FA.

The piece is NOT FA...just to clear that point up.

Now I realize I was wrong and should of had something on there.

At this point what should I do re some sort of #'s or initials on it?

Where also should these ID marks be placed so as to be noticed?

OR is it really necessary to mark some sort of ID markings on there at all?

I really want to be in compliance with the law.

I'm collecting parts for a future build and want to do it right the next time around.

Any advice and or suggestions are more then welcome...

Thanks!
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  #72  
Old 05-05-2011, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyMalteseFalcon View Post
Now I realize I was wrong and should of had something on there.

At this point what should I do re some sort of #'s or initials on it?
only if you want to. There is no requirement that you mark a non-NFA homemade firearm. Some people voluntarily mark, others don't.

Quote:
Where also should these ID marks be placed so as to be noticed?
ATF says that any required marks must be placed in a conspicuous location, so no putting it under the pistol grip, etc.


Quote:
OR is it really necessary to mark some sort of ID markings on there at all?

I really want to be in compliance with the law.
it isn't necessary to mark. you are in compliance with an unmarked homebuilt firearm.

Now, I personally mark everything with a serial number, but don't bother with the Name, City, State markings.
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  #73  
Old 05-05-2011, 10:25 AM
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MyMalteseFalcon MyMalteseFalcon is offline
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Thank for the info, I kinda figured as much. But I wasn't sure how to go about the next one. Perhaps the next build will have my date of birth on there, or some such thing.

I don't ever plan on selling any of my guns, did that once due to divorce and sorely regret letting go of some excellent collector pieces. Live and learn is the motto in life...

Thanks for the info...

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  #74  
Old 05-05-2011, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyMalteseFalcon View Post
I really want to be in compliance with the law.

I'm collecting parts for a future build and want to do it right the next time around.

Any advice and or suggestions are more then welcome...

Thanks!
I've never marked any of my homebuilt guns with anything more than F'ups from me. It is 100% legal to not have any markings at all. However, if you want to mark it, I suggest marking it to ATF standards. There are both size and depth requirements as well as what info is required to be there if you end up transfering it to someone else.
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  #75  
Old 05-05-2011, 1:30 PM
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My next question may seem over kill on my knowledge on the 922r compliance parts list. The following list is what I have on my build. There's no pistol grip at the moment, as I have it in a rifle configuration, but I do have one for it. Also, even though I know I don't need to have one on there, is a Solar Tech BB.

Receiver
Barrel
Gas piston
Trigger
Hammer
Sear
Disconnector
Butt stock
Fore grip
Magazine, floor plate, and follower.


In total it's 12 parts that I've got. Is it six (6) parts to make it all 922r?

Would big brother really take a count on how many there are?

Or are they making us whistle Dixie?
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  #76  
Old 05-05-2011, 2:06 PM
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Im building an ak pistol and I wanted to know if their was
someone can engrave the bay area or how have some of you have done it
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  #77  
Old 05-05-2011, 2:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyMalteseFalcon View Post
My next question may seem over kill on my knowledge on the 922r compliance parts list. The following list is what I have on my build. There's no pistol grip at the moment, as I have it in a rifle configuration, but I do have one for it. Also, even though I know I don't need to have one on there, is a Solar Tech BB.

Receiver
Barrel
Gas piston
Trigger
Hammer
Sear
Disconnector
Butt stock
Fore grip
Magazine, floor plate, and follower.


In total it's 12 parts that I've got. Is it six (6) parts to make it all 922r?

Would big brother really take a count on how many there are?

Or are they making us whistle Dixie?
You can thank Clinton for the 922(r) thing. 922(r) was intended to keep people (companies) from importing parts for long guns which were no longer importable and just building them again. We should really feel lucky that the law allows for as many as 10 imported parts per long gun. It doesn't matter how many US made parts are on your gun just as long as it only has 10 or less imported parts. By removing the PG and muzzle attachment and putting nothing in their places, you need two less US made parts. Get it?

Putting a ST BB or any other mag lock on a featureless rifle is really just plain STUPID. Having a mag lock on the gun means that you are stuck using 10 round or less mags. Having a featureless build lets you use any mag you want and you can drop them without a tool. Yea, the law doesn't make any sense but, antis aren't the brightest people in the first place.
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  #78  
Old 06-14-2011, 6:55 PM
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^^SO you don't have to put a mag lock on in Cali? Cause i was told otherwise.
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  #79  
Old 06-14-2011, 6:59 PM
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key word in the above post is "featureless". No, you don't need a maglock on a featureless semi-auto centerfire rifle.
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  #80  
Old 06-14-2011, 8:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domingo View Post
Im building an ak pistol and I wanted to know if their was
someone can engrave the bay area or how have some of you have done it
Here you go...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...58&postcount=1
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...83&postcount=1
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...90&postcount=2
https://calguns.net/calgunforum/show...&postcount=772

Next time I see you I'll show you some other stuff...
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