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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-09-2011, 11:10 PM
harbinger007 harbinger007 is offline
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Default Discharge of firearms illegal in Yosemite - no exceptions

I searched but did not see this discussed previously, but may have missed it.

According to Yosemite's web site, there is not even an exception for self defense. Is this constitutional?

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm


Quote:
Yosemite National Park
Weapons/Firearms

Firearms
As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park.

It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before entering this park. As a starting point, visit the California Attorney General's website.

Federal law also prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park; those places are marked with signs at all public entrances.

Discharging a firearm for any reason is illegal.

Other Weapons
The possession, use, or discharge of pepper spray (including bear spray), pellet guns, and BB guns in Yosemite National Park is prohibited.
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:39 PM
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I guess this will be the next anti movement. The 2nd allows keeping and bearing, but says nothing about shooting. ;-(
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Old 04-10-2011, 3:29 AM
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Defending ones self is part of the ..."security of a free state..." in the 2nd Amendment.
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Old 04-10-2011, 4:55 AM
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I believe the law put firearms law in state boundaries depending on the state the park is in. CA allows for self defense discharge and the "policy" does not override state law if I understand the Federal legislation. Any inputs from our legal types.....please.
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Old 04-10-2011, 8:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harbinger007 View Post
I searched but did not see this discussed previously, but may have missed it.

According to Yosemite's web site, there is not even an exception for self defense. Is this constitutional?

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

Since the only time you can use the firearm is to prevent great bodily injury or death from happening. Violating this asinine rule would be the least of your problems. IMHO
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Old 04-10-2011, 8:25 AM
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Originally Posted by wellerjohn View Post
Since the only time you can use the firearm is to prevent great bodily injury or death from happening. Violating this asinine rule would be the least of your problems. IMHO
YNP says it's "illegal", not a "rule". Being arrested in such a situation would be my second biggest problem, not "the least of my problems."

What law specifically are they referring to that makes discharge for self defense illegal?
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Old 04-10-2011, 8:29 AM
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When is policy the actual law? Backdoor rule making is the law? Maybe no hunting or discharge for that. The real law is that what mirrors in state parks. More anti FUD
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Old 04-10-2011, 8:46 AM
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You might be reading it wrong. You are reading it into a contradiction.

Quote:
As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park.

Discharging a firearm for any reason is illegal.
You might want to ask yourself, what good is it to pass a new law that allows you to possess a firearm within a national park, yet can't shoot it?

This is the way I read it.

Quote:
Federal law also prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park; those places are marked with signs at all public entrances.

Discharging a firearm (within these facilities) for any reason is illegal.
I added the stuff in ( ) to clarify.
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Old 04-10-2011, 8:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
I added the stuff in ( ) to clarify.
Kinda what the anti gun lobby does with the 2nd Amendment.
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  #10  
Old 04-10-2011, 8:57 AM
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I doubt that any Jury would convict a good shoot in the Yosemite jurisdiction.
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Old 04-10-2011, 9:29 AM
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They ban the discharge of firearms and the possession and use of bear spray in a forest known to be inhabited by bears........ Niiiiice!
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2011, 9:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple K View Post
They ban the discharge of firearms and the possession and use of bear spray in a forest known to be inhabited by bears........ Niiiiice!
Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)
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Old 04-10-2011, 9:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning View Post
Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)
I'm glad I could be the Laurel to your Hardy... lol
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  #14  
Old 04-10-2011, 9:40 AM
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WOW ^^^^ thats Awesome! LOL
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  #15  
Old 04-10-2011, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning View Post

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)
Congratulations, you've won an all expense paid one week vacation to Juarez, Mexico!! The winner of the second prize will win a TWO week all expense paid vacation to Juarez!
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:01 AM
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Discharge within almost any city limits is illegal too. So everybody in a self defence shooting is breaking the law? This thread follows "I saw it on the internet so it must be true."
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ten Rounder View Post
Discharge within almost any city limits is illegal too. So everybody in a self defence shooting is breaking the law? This thread follows "I saw it on the internet so it must be true."
I believe most cities have an exception for self defense. San Francisco's situation is the matter of a suit filed earlier this month, see http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?p=6165212

Not sure what your point is about this thread.
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:58 AM
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I have no reason to visit Yosemite NP or any other NP. In my experience they are severely overcrowded abysmal substitutes for a real wilderness experience. They often seem to be places where the main purpose of the visit is for people to show off their latest outdoor fashion wear. Wild animals are turned into pets and behave as such, services and goods are priced way above market rates. The experience is over priced, and over regulated with rules about where you can walk, where you can camp, law enforcement running around writing citations. Nope National Parks not for me.
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Old 04-10-2011, 12:13 PM
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Yeah, Yosemite can be way too crowded but it's not always like that. I once hiked up to Nevada Falls in late October and there were no other footprints in the snow on the trail. It had been at least a couple of days since it had snowed.

Still, I go to Yosemite primarily to enjoy the beauty there which I can still enjoy even if there are too many present.

There are some weird folks that do go there and they present more danger than wildlife as long as you use common sense.
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Old 04-10-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunt View Post
I have no reason to visit Yosemite NP or any other NP. In my experience they are severely overcrowded abysmal substitutes for a real wilderness experience. They often seem to be places where the main purpose of the visit is for people to show off their latest outdoor fashion wear. Wild animals are turned into pets and behave as such, services and goods are priced way above market rates. The experience is over priced, and over regulated with rules about where you can walk, where you can camp, law enforcement running around writing citations. Nope National Parks not for me.
I don't have much experience with Natl Parks outside CA but Kings Canyon is my favorite. You can really get out to more isolated areas and it's generally much quieter which is nice. The last couple times I've gone where we camped we were the only ones in the entire site, and only saw maybe 10-12 people at the most on the northern half of the park. Yosemite is ridiculous, it's like Disneyland with trees.
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Old 04-10-2011, 3:36 PM
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yosemite sucks and has been just a breeding ground of stupid people from urban areas to gather over last 20 years... better off camping outside areas of yosemite with less traffic and trouble..
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Old 04-10-2011, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning View Post
Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)
Oooh I want to play....
You have the right to bring the gun to the bear encounter, you just can't shoot the gun, ergo, you get the bear's arms (in your face). In the end, you STILL had the right to bear arms...They didn't lie.

Last edited by Etihtsarom; 04-10-2011 at 3:45 PM..
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Old 04-10-2011, 3:44 PM
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necessity is an affirmative defense.

Ignore the rule.
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  #24  
Old 04-10-2011, 8:56 PM
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OK here is a quandry although I feel I know how most will answer but....

Given the assinine rules either way, which would you choose if you faced a bear (2 legged a-holes are a 'given' response)-

1- use only bear spray
2- use only a gun
3- try bear spray first but have gun ready for back up......that way you can explain that you tried to use non lethal method to make the bear leave..

Just wondering....I may have to take relatives up there in Sept.
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Old 04-10-2011, 9:21 PM
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People have been bringing guns into national parks for years, long before the Feb. 2010 law went into effect. People had them for self defense. If someone used a gun for self defense against another person I seriously doubt there would be any charges against the shooter.

Earlier this year I recall a visitor to Yellowstone National Park shooting off some warning shots (shot the dirt) to scare off a wild animal maybe a moose or something. I recall the shooter was lectured by a park ranger and let go with a warning.
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Old 04-10-2011, 10:40 PM
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Im going on a 50-70 mile hike in a few weeks in Yosemite. Most of the time we will be days out from human contact. If any of the other people I am with is attacked by a bear, I will make sure to grab my sat com phone and call for help. Or maybe I will use my SPOT, or better yet... I will try reasoning with the bear.
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:05 PM
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Let me tell you a story. Last year in July I was on my honeymoon with my wife just days after getting married. We spent the majority of our honeymoon camping, fishing, relaxing, hiking and such just a couple miles below the Yosemite entrance in Lee Vining. On our last morning I was walking to the bathrooms and came nearly face to face with a bear as wide as a picnic table and almost twice as tall. It started coming right at me and my only choice was to run, I was barefoot and only had shorts and a wifebeater on and didn't even have my work knife on me.

Luckily for me I can sprint faster than a housecat without shoes, I'm not even joking, I've chased my cat down the street in bare feet and caught her when she escapes. Anyway I turned and booked it before I became breakfast. Prior to my honeymoon I considered taking my M1 carbine and a couple boxes of softpoints, or my Ruger P94 and a box of hollowpoints but for some idiot reason thought it was a bad idea at the time. I thought I'd get hassled by park rangers and turned away or worse, turned in for violating some obscure law I wasn't aware of, and getting married plus work distracted me too from thinking the decision over, especially because I didn't completely consider the threat from wild animals instead of from humans.

I sprinted as hard as I could and even hurdled a bush and a woodpile back to my Silverado about 100 yards away, which was the closest thing in that direction that wasn't a tree or a rock. I ended up flying into the tent in the bed and grabbed my axe but the bear had lost me along the way. I felt triumphant for getting away but also foolish for putting my life and my wife's in jeopardy by not being armed. Not that having my M1 carbine with softpoints is the most ideal rifle to take down a bear with, but is certainly better than a goddamn axe.

What's even stupider is that normally when I go camping I go out to the BLM near Ocotillo I've been shooting and have my guns with me anyway. Needless to say I'll never make that mistake again. The next time I go camping anywhere in California I'll be armed. I will never let myself be exposed like that again, and if I discharge a firearm "illegally" in a state park it'll be for a damn good reason.
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swilson View Post
Let me tell you a story. Last year in July I was on my honeymoon with my wife just days after getting married. ...I was barefoot and only had shorts and a wifebeater on...

No. I can't say it. It's just too easy...
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Old 04-11-2011, 1:41 AM
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Leave Yogi and BooBoo alone. Store your food properly and you won't have bear problems. They are looking for food, and Black Bears don't eat people. Just don't getbetween a mama and her cubs. Do stupid things, win prizes.

If you use a 9mm on a bear, make sure the front sight is ground smooth. That way it won't hurt as much when Yogi shoves it where the sun don't shine.

Two legged critters are more of a concern.
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Old 04-11-2011, 6:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexter9659 View Post
Im going on a 50-70 mile hike in a few weeks in Yosemite. Most of the time we will be days out from human contact. If any of the other people I am with is attacked by a bear, I will make sure to grab my sat com phone and call for help. Or maybe I will use my SPOT, or better yet... I will try reasoning with the bear.
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Old 04-11-2011, 8:12 AM
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I do always have a firearm with me when offroading,camping,hiking,etc so by default I would be armed....I just find the rules/laws/etc that over lap and conflict with one another assinine....I guess it should not surprise me that there is not ONE person in the chain that can correctly proof read and figure out what is wrong with these things...

Yes, I am also more concerned with coming across 2 legged pests,illegal poachers,pot farmers,etc than the wildlife.......I will do everything possible to NOT have to shoot a bear,cougar,moose,etc unless LAST option........the biped cretins.....ehhhhhhhhh.......
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Old 04-11-2011, 8:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
...They are looking for food, and Black Bears don't eat people.
What if they're looking for sex? There's that old joke, punchline is, after the third time the bear says to hunter, "You don't come up here for the hunting, do you?"

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If you use a 9mm on a bear, make sure the front sight is ground smooth. That way it won't hurt as much when Yogi shoves it where the sun don't shine.

Yeah. That joke.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning View Post
Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)
LOL
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Hunt View Post
I have no reason to visit Yosemite NP or any other NP. In my experience they are severely overcrowded abysmal substitutes for a real wilderness experience. They often seem to be places where the main purpose of the visit is for people to show off their latest outdoor fashion wear. Wild animals are turned into pets and behave as such, services and goods are priced way above market rates. The experience is over priced, and over regulated with rules about where you can walk, where you can camp, law enforcement running around writing citations. Nope National Parks not for me.
Wish more people felt as you do. More room for me.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Leave Yogi and BooBoo alone. Store your food properly and you won't have bear problems. They are looking for food, and Black Bears don't eat people. Just don't getbetween a mama and her cubs. Do stupid things, win prizes.

If you use a 9mm on a bear, make sure the front sight is ground smooth. That way it won't hurt as much when Yogi shoves it where the sun don't shine.

Two legged critters are more of a concern.
people on the gun boards always say that you don't need a gun for bears, but it seems that most fatal bear attacks ( & I would bet most non fatal ones ) involved ppl who were not armed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._North_America

I don't care that most of the time you don't have to worry about bears, I'm gonna bring a gun anyhow.

at least 16 unarmed ppl killed by black bears in north america in the last 10 yrs-none of them or their families thought having a gun was a necessity
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Old 04-11-2011, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledReaper View Post
OK here is a quandry although I feel I know how most will answer but....

Given the assinine rules either way, which would you choose if you faced a bear (2 legged a-holes are a 'given' response)-
The last few times I ran into bears (including a time involving bear cubs) I yelled and waved my arms and the bears ran away. It's worked for many other friends that I've known as well.

Yeah, I had a gun nearby, but I've NEVER run into a bear where I felt it was absolutely necessary to have a gun with me.

Now, a mountain lion is a whole other story. But bears are generally pretty tame.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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Old 04-11-2011, 1:52 PM
harbinger007 harbinger007 is offline
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I shared the wikipedia link with a friend of mine from Utah. The company he works with had an event the day before the boy there was killed and he said there were several attacks by black bears while people were sleeping. That's quite different than my own personal experience with black bears but when I googled "utah black bear attacks" there are numerous stories about them.

Still, I'll rely primarily on bear spray when I'm in bear country.

I did backpack with my son a couple of years ago and we came across an a half mile stretch in the trail where there was a lot of mountain lion scat. I made sure my son stayed right in front of me but I was still more than a little anxious and wished I was armed at the time. Now that I've got a CCW I will be.
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Old 04-11-2011, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by harbinger007 View Post
I shared the wikipedia link with a friend of mine from Utah. The company he works with had an event the day before the boy there was killed and he said there were several attacks by black bears while people were sleeping. That's quite different than my own personal experience with black bears but when I googled "utah black bear attacks" there are numerous stories about them.

Still, I'll rely primarily on bear spray when I'm in bear country.

I did backpack with my son a couple of years ago and we came across an a half mile stretch in the trail where there was a lot of mountain lion scat. I made sure my son stayed right in front of me but I was still more than a little anxious and wished I was armed at the time. Now that I've got a CCW I will be.
Just two weeks ago me and a buddy went for an all-day hike in a local state park thats only a mile from my house. We went WAAAAY off trail, as thats the best way to experience the park. I came accross an area just like what your talking about. Mountain lion scat everywhere, like every two feet. I felt so stupid for not bringing a firearm with me. I won't make that mistake again. I just moved to this town in the North Bay Area and I guess I just havnt had to deal with mountain lions since I lived in the mountains of San Diego so I didnt even think about it.
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Old 04-11-2011, 3:17 PM
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Iv been reading in the thread about the use of Bear Mace as an alternative to a firearm for self defense while in a N.P, but isn't any pepper spray canister larger than 2oz or so in size illegal for CA citizens to posses? I don't think i have ever seen a 2oz can of bear mace so wouldn't the mace be illegal to? Am I way wrong, or does "Bear Mace" fall under different regulations?
I do not want to spread false info (especially legal info), so if someone could confirm/correct me on this info I would greatly appreciate it.
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Old 04-11-2011, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by awall919 View Post
Iv been reading in the thread about the use of Bear Mace as an alternative to a firearm for self defense while in a N.P, but isn't any pepper spray canister larger than 2oz or so in size illegal for CA citizens to posses? I don't think i have ever seen a 2oz can of bear mace so wouldn't the mace be illegal to? Am I way wrong, or does "Bear Mace" fall under different regulations?
I do not want to spread false info (especially legal info), so if someone could confirm/correct me on this info I would greatly appreciate it.
Canisters larger than 2oz are only illegal for self defense use against other humans.

Perfectly legal for animals.

And before you say it, you're right, the law makes no sense.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
--Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"
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