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  #1  
Old 11-30-2010, 12:48 PM
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Default Unregistered Handguns?

I was told this morning that having an unregistered handgun (handgun that was not registered to you) can be a felony per 12025(c) PC. The section was very confusing. It directs you to many different sections, and I am getting lost. I didn't know the handguns had to be registered. I thought pre '94 purchase from a private party was okay without registration.

If you are stopped by an LEO, and you tell him you have a handgun. And, it is not registered to you. Or, you are UOC and the LEO checks it, and it was not registered to you. Now what?

(I am not looking for an answer that says don't tell anything or stay quiet type of response. I just want to know what the legality is on the subject.)

Can anyone shine the light on this subject?
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2010, 1:13 PM
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lots of light at the Wiki: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...s_registration

12025 is concealed without CCW, and indeed that is correct - so don't carry concealed without CCW.

Beyond that, no, handguns need not be registered -- but they ARE registered when going through DROS. It's just that not all handguns have gone through CA DROS.
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2010, 1:18 PM
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there are many pre 94 pistols in the state and they are legal to own.

if checked by a cop i would guess there is a large chance he will take the gun and leave you with LEGR and DOJ as your only hope to get it back.

i had a mossberg 500 taken for safe keeping by LBPD. after my LEGR came back from DOJ LBPD still would not give me back my gun without the original DROS paperwork showing i was the legal owner. lucky for me it was DROSed at turners and they list the make,model, and serial on the paperwork or i would not have been able to get my shotgun back. once they have your gun they will make it very hard to get it back. they want to melt it down and ad it to their stats.

i think an unregistered pistol will will be a lost cause unless you get a lawyer or CGF to help you.
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2010, 1:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
lots of light at the Wiki: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...s_registration

12025 is concealed without CCW, and indeed that is correct - so don't carry concealed without CCW.

Beyond that, no, handguns need not be registered -- but they ARE registered when going through DROS. It's just that not all handguns have gone through CA DROS.
This is something I have wondered about too. I have pistols I purchased in AZ. If I get a CCW in SD county based on a part time residence I have there (come on judge Gonzalez!) will I have to DROS any AZ purchased pistols I have in order to carry them WITH a CA CCW?
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2010, 1:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
This is something I have wondered about too. I have pistols I purchased in AZ. If I get a CCW in SD county based on a part time residence I have there (come on judge Gonzalez!) will I have to DROS any AZ purchased pistols I have in order to carry them WITH a CA CCW?
One hopes that restriction will go away - there is no requirement in PC that it be so, just a whim of the CLEO issuing authorities.

But when that might be so, I do not know.
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2010, 1:47 PM
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Will they tell me when I apply for the CCW that I have to register them? I don't want to get in trouble for not having done it because I didn't know I was supposed to...
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2010, 2:05 PM
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Topgun,

The Penal Code section that you're referring to makes it a felony to possess a concealed firearm where the firearm is not registered to you. (It's a misdemeanor offense if the firearm is registered to you). It does not provide a felony offense for the simple possession of an unregistered firearm.

California does not directly make the possession of an unregistered firearm unlawful. But it's not over yet, please keep reading.

When you purchase a handgun, the Dealer Report of Sale (DROS) effectively creates a registration record for you. If you brought handguns in from another state prior to 1998, there is no requirement for you to register them in California, but you become liable to the felony provisions of Penal Code sections 12025 (Carrying Concealed) and 12031 (Carrying Loaded) if you violate these other sections. These would only be misdemeanors if the weapon were registered to you. If you brought handguns into California after January 1 of 1998, then you are (were) required to register them within 60 days or dispose of them per Penal Code section 12072(f).

It's a minor distinction. Although you can't be charged with possessing unregistered weapons, but you could find yourself charged with failing to register your weapons.
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Old 11-30-2010, 2:08 PM
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Now Im not sure but cant you just register the handgun for the $19 fee? Thats what C&R people do who buy handguns out of state and bring them back to california.
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Old 11-30-2010, 2:23 PM
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This gives me a headache
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2010, 2:28 PM
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This applies if you are a new resident here. So coming from AZ with a handgun, you have 60 days to register it.

Handguns
Any person who moves into California and who brings any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is considered to be a "Personal Handgun Importer" and is required to do one of the following within 60 days:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/ab991.php
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  #11  
Old 11-30-2010, 2:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
Will they tell me when I apply for the CCW that I have to register them? I don't want to get in trouble for not having done it because I didn't know I was supposed to...
They might have that requirement - depends on the county where you apply, so check up in the CCW subforum.
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2010, 2:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildeman_13 View Post
This applies if you are a new resident here. So coming from AZ with a handgun, you have 60 days to register it.

Handguns
Any person who moves into California and who brings any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is considered to be a "Personal Handgun Importer" and is required to do one of the following within 60 days:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/ab991.php
But I'm still a part (most) time AZ resident...
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the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is
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Defendants’ philosophy or personal beliefs about the value of this activity—must carry the day-Alan Gura
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2010, 2:45 PM
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Quote:
But I'm still a part (most) time AZ resident...
But if you get a CACCW, and good luck with that, I wonder if you just became Californian enough to pay that $19.....................
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2010, 3:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
But I'm still a part (most) time AZ resident...
Good point on the dual residency issue...

If, during the time you reside in, say AZ, you purchase a pistol (not otherwise illegal in CA) and you bring it with you (unloaded in locked container) into CA, do you have to register it pursuant to the "move into CA" requirement considering you will take it with you back to AZ when you live there again???
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2010, 5:35 PM
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If it's more than 60 days then yes. Just register the damn thing for 19 bucks and be done with it.
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  #16  
Old 11-30-2010, 5:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Topgun,

The Penal Code section that you're referring to makes it a felony to possess a concealed firearm where the firearm is not registered to you. (It's a misdemeanor offense if the firearm is registered to you). It does not provide a felony offense for the simple possession of an unregistered firearm.

California does not directly make the possession of an unregistered firearm unlawful. But it's not over yet, please keep reading.

When you purchase a handgun, the Dealer Report of Sale (DROS) effectively creates a registration record for you. If you brought handguns in from another state prior to 1998, there is no requirement for you to register them in California, but you become liable to the felony provisions of Penal Code sections 12025 (Carrying Concealed) and 12031 (Carrying Loaded) if you violate these other sections. These would only be misdemeanors if the weapon were registered to you. If you brought handguns into California after January 1 of 1998, then you are (were) required to register them within 60 days or dispose of them per Penal Code section 12072(f).

It's a minor distinction. Although you can't be charged with possessing unregistered weapons, but you could find yourself charged with failing to register your weapons.
The reason that I asked the question was that there was a prisoner in court today. He was arrested for a carrying concealed weapon. The pistol was not registered to him. So, they were charging him for a felony.

If the pistol had no record in AFS, no dealer sales record, is that a problem just for just a possession?
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  #17  
Old 11-30-2010, 6:23 PM
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this is why so many people are moving out of california. my new quote is "there's no such thing as ridiculous in California" this is a case-in-point. while i don't agree with the carry laws, if you obey the law, you shouldn't have a problem. don't have a carry permit? don't carry the damn gun. that's about as simple as i can make this mess. believe me, i'd love to be able to carry, but i don't live in an area(or even close to one) that i'd have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a CCW. so i just don't carry. it sucks, but hey, "we have great weather"....
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  #18  
Old 11-30-2010, 6:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun7 View Post
The reason that I asked the question was that there was a prisoner in court today. He was arrested for a carrying concealed weapon. The pistol was not registered to him. So, they were charging him for a felony.

If the pistol had no record in AFS, no dealer sales record, is that a problem just for just a possession?
The situation you describe is handled specially - see PC 12025(b)(6).

If you are not carrying concealed without CCW, registration or lack of it generally has no importance.
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2010, 9:11 PM
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Topgun,

+1 to Libarian's posting above. The thing that got your courtroom guest into trouble was carrying the weapon concealed. The lack of registration just elevated that "faux pas" to a felony. There's no criminal violation for simply possessing an unregistered handgun.

It is possible to be charged with a failure to register a handgun upon entry to California. Here's what the LEO would have to show:

1) That the person entered California with the handgun more than 60 days ago (that's an element of the offense)

2) That the person entered California with the handgun less than one year and 60 days ago (that's the statute of limitations)

It's certainly possible that a prosecutor could meet that burden of proof, but it's not a simple as showing the possession of an unregistered handgun.

Last edited by RickD427; 11-30-2010 at 9:24 PM..
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Old 12-01-2010, 3:40 AM
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If read If a guy I knew passed away and his wife sold me his revolver and I didnt do a ppt and register it in my name . Should I worry about it? Lighten up francis

Last edited by mattt; 12-01-2010 at 3:57 PM..
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Old 12-01-2010, 4:25 AM
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Old 12-01-2010, 6:34 AM
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Help a brother with low comprehension out.

When you apply for a CCW in CA, and you list a handgun that has not been registered to you, but you have owned since the 80's, will that handgun be denied on your CCW until you register it?
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Old 12-01-2010, 7:33 AM
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I am trying to figure out if one of my handguns is registered in CA. I purchased it from a dealer in CA in 1992 and there was a mandatory 10-day wait to take possession, but I don't recall whether it went through a DROS. Were they being recorded and the handguns automatically registered in 1992?
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Old 12-01-2010, 8:26 AM
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These are valuable discussions because they bring up fine points in the law that could have serious repricussions. For instance; I have possession of a couple of my dad's guns, if I were to transport one of those in a non-compliant manor, that little mistake with one of his guns could result in a felony conviction.
Major lesson learned! If you are tempted to ccw without a permit, make certain you only do it with a gun that is registered to you!
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Old 12-01-2010, 8:31 AM
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Shoot, I just thought of another scary scenario. I bought a gun for my wife. It is registered to me. I have told her, if anything happens on a road trip (to the car or if she gets lost) load it up and keep it accessible. I would rather her have to explain it to a cop (who would hopefully be sympathetic) than to something worse happen. But from this thread, I gather that she would be committing a felony rather than a simple misdemeanor.
Is that correct? How do I transfer her gun to her name?
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Old 12-01-2010, 8:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun7 View Post
The reason that I asked the question was that there was a prisoner in court today. He was arrested for a carrying concealed weapon. The pistol was not registered to him. So, they were charging him for a felony.

If the pistol had no record in AFS, no dealer sales record, is that a problem just for just a possession?
AFAIK, there is no law that states "all handguns in CA must be registered". I am sure enough about this to openly state that I own unregistered handguns which I've owned for many years or recently manufactured. On my homebuilt handguns, I haven't even put a SN of them and I'm not required to unless I need to transfer it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattt View Post
A guy I knew passed away his wife sold me his revolver and I didnt do a ppt and register it in my name . Should I worry about it?
So, you're admitting to criminal activity on a public forum? Or, did this transfer take place prior to 1991?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto4Fun View Post
Shoot, I just thought of another scary scenario. I bought a gun for my wife. It is registered to me. I have told her, if anything happens on a road trip (to the car or if she gets lost) load it up and keep it accessible. I would rather her have to explain it to a cop (who would hopefully be sympathetic) than to something worse happen. But from this thread, I gather that she would be committing a felony rather than a simple misdemeanor.
Is that correct? How do I transfer her gun to her name?
You can transfer it into her name by simply filling out a intrafamilar transfer form from DOJ's website and sending that along with $19 to DOJ.
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Old 12-01-2010, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkoff View Post
Help a brother with low comprehension out.

When you apply for a CCW in CA, and you list a handgun that has not been registered to you, but you have owned since the 80's, will that handgun be denied on your CCW until you register it?
It depends on the LEA that you are applying to for your CCW. Requiring the carry guns to be registered is an illegal requirement, but is still a requirement imposed by some agencies.
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Old 12-01-2010, 8:58 AM
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Wow, stuff like this amazes me. What is a felony in CA in AZ doesn't even get a second look.

Last edited by Colt-45; 12-01-2010 at 9:01 AM..
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Old 12-01-2010, 9:10 AM
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Wow, stuff like this amazes me. What is a felony in CA in AZ doesn't even get a second look.
It is amazing how much paperwork and Kalifornia BS we have to put up with.

Considering in Arizona a Face to Face transaction can legally take place in a Parking Lot.

I was with my adult son in Oklahoma (on a visit to the grandkids) walk into a GUN SHOP, point to the pistol he wanted, showed his DL, paid in Cash and walked out with it. No registration no record of the gun recorded anywhere.

No waiting period, no limit on magazine capacity, no limit on what would be called an Assault Rifle here in California, no worries about threaded barrels or
pistol grips-and if a normal person wants to carry concealed all they have to do is APPLY for the permit and it will be issued.!
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Old 12-01-2010, 9:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Oceanbob View Post
It is amazing how much paperwork and Kalifornia BS we have to put up with.

Considering in Arizona a Face to Face transaction can legally take place in a Parking Lot.

I was with my adult son in Oklahoma (on a visit to the grandkids) walk into a GUN SHOP, point to the pistol he wanted, showed his DL, paid in Cash and walked out with it. No registration no record of the gun recorded anywhere.

No waiting period, no limit on magazine capacity, no limit on what would be called an Assault Rifle here in California, no worries about threaded barrels or
pistol grips-and if a normal person wants to carry concealed all they have to do is APPLY for the permit and it will be issued.!
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Old 12-01-2010, 9:46 AM
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Old 12-01-2010, 9:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyGuy View Post
It depends on the LEA that you are applying to for your CCW. Requiring the carry guns to be registered is an illegal requirement, but is still a requirement imposed by some agencies.
Thank you. Once or if I get a CCW I might try it with one of the old man's model 19's with a 3".
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Old 12-01-2010, 3:52 PM
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The senario I asked about is a what if. Like what happens if I got pulled over with a loaded handgun ect. Every hangun I own is in my name because I would like the option of selling them if I had to.But I was curios of the senario I asked about.
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Old 12-01-2010, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattt View Post
The senario I asked about is a what if. Like what happens if I got pulled over with a loaded handgun ect. Every hangun I own is in my name because I would like the option of selling them if I had to.But I was curios of the senario I asked about.
Well, without CCW you would very likely be charged with violating PC 12025, concealed weapon, and PC 12031, loaded in a public place.

Best to avoid that, if possible.
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Old 12-01-2010, 4:44 PM
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How are long guns related to this? I inherited a bunch of pistol from my grandpa when he passed and did an interfamily transfer for those. But what about the long guns?
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Old 12-01-2010, 4:49 PM
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Default Sam Gerard

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What movie was that from?
The Sam character in US MARSHALS.....1998
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Fewer people are killed with all rifles each year (323 in 2011) than with shotguns (356), hammers and clubs (496), and hands and feet (728).
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Old 12-01-2010, 4:50 PM
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Default There is no registration

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Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
How are long guns related to this? I inherited a bunch of pistol from my grandpa when he passed and did an interfamily transfer for those. But what about the long guns?
of Long Guns or Shotguns in California. They don't track them.
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Fewer people are killed with all rifles each year (323 in 2011) than with shotguns (356), hammers and clubs (496), and hands and feet (728).
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  #38  
Old 12-01-2010, 4:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
How are long guns related to this? I inherited a bunch of pistol from my grandpa when he passed and did an interfamily transfer for those. But what about the long guns?
Intrafamilial transfers of long guns are paperless and CA has no registration requirement for long guns.
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Old 12-01-2010, 7:00 PM
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I love Calguns. Every time I log on I find yet another motivational push to get the hell out of this state. Thanks guys!
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