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  #81  
Old 03-31-2010, 6:53 PM
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I have a few questions and hoping that someone with the knowledge and experiences of the laws can help answering.

If your AR style rifle is completely legal in Ca, but you got in trouble with the police because of that rifle style. Will the DA continue to prosecute you, presumebly they know about that your rifle is legal? What is the chance that the DA will prosecute you? And what if they prosecute you and they can't win the case, who will pay for the attorney's fees? How much is a typical cost throughout the end?

Thanks,
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  #82  
Old 04-01-2010, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
So by looking at the Semi-Auto Rifle ID Flowchart I see that appendixes A,B, and C list what are generally deemed as "assault rifles".
No - those are "named" assault rifles. There's nothing "general" about it.

Regarding RRA lowers, the company makes a few lowers not on the lists. Some of us completely avoid the potential hassle of an LEO not understanding that by sticking with lowers that aren't named at all.

The DPMS lowers you're seeing aren't "Panthers".
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  #83  
Old 04-24-2010, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
What about a preban colt sporter year 2000 registered as a assault weapon. Would you advise putting a BB on it just for extra preotection? But I can still run 30 rounders or not?
If you specifically registered it as an assualt weapon, and the registration was accepted, there is no need to put a BB on it. You can run large-capacity magazines in a RAW with no issues, even if you have a BB on it.
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  #84  
Old 04-25-2010, 7:14 PM
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Here's a question I'd like some help with. I have an M&P 15 ORC. S&W ships these to CA with a fixed stock (and it is fixed at the shortest position). I like everything about this gun. It is a tack-driver right out of the box, with Troy folding battle sights and quad carbine battle rail added after purchase. But I don't like the fixed stock. Can I legally upgrade to a collapsible stock? I don't know why S&W did this for their CA shipments. The dealer I bought the M&P had a Remington AR (with classic pistol grip AND a collapsible stock) but I preferred to get the M&P.
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  #85  
Old 04-25-2010, 7:23 PM
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Originally Posted by neuron View Post
Here's a question I'd like some help with. I have an M&P 15 ORC. S&W ships these to CA with a fixed stock (and it is fixed at the shortest position). I like everything about this gun. It is a tack-driver right out of the box, with Troy folding battle sights and quad carbine battle rail added after purchase. But I don't like the fixed stock. Can I legally upgrade to a collapsible stock? I don't know why S&W did this for their CA shipments. The dealer I bought the M&P had a Remington AR (with classic pistol grip AND a collapsible stock) but I preferred to get the M&P.
I was not aware tht S&W was selling directly to CA FFLs. I would guess that they are going through a middleman who is not completely up to speed on all the regs and might think that even with a BB (I assume it came with a BB installed and wasn't shipped disassembled) that it needs a fixed stock.

As long as it does not ahve a detachable magazine, a collapsable stock is not prohibited.
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  #86  
Old 04-25-2010, 9:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I was not aware tht S&W was selling directly to CA FFLs...
I bought my M&P 15 from a reputable gun shop in the Bay Area (has been in business for years), and I have to assume that they wouldn't sell anything illegal. Went through the DROS and 10 day Cali wait. This was a dealer sale (not PPT). So the M&P 15 ORC is legal as equipped at sale. The only feature that I want to change is the pinned non-adjustable stock. I just want to know if this mod is legal here, or do I have to swap out the pistol grip to make it "featureless?" I have a bunch of 30rd pre-ban AR/M16 mags that fit the M&P 15, and which I assume are legal to use in it (with the M&P BB)...
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  #87  
Old 04-25-2010, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuron View Post
I bought my M&P 15 from a reputable gun shop in the Bay Area (has been in business for years), and I have to assume that they wouldn't sell anything illegal. Went through the DROS and 10 day Cali wait. This was a dealer sale (not PPT). So the M&P 15 ORC is legal as equipped at sale.
I'm not saying it wasn't a legal sale. I was just saying that I doubt S&W sent the rifle into CA in that configuration. Some outside middleman FFL made it CA-legal before it was sent to your local FFL.

I was commenting on the statement, "I don't know why S&W did this for their CA shipments. " and I was saying that S&W probably didn't do that to the CA shipment because they don't ship to CA. There are only a few manufacturers that sell directly to CA in a CA-legal configuration. Everybody else lets a middleman reconfig it for CA sale.


The only feature that I want to change is the pinned non-adjustable stock. I just want to know if this mod is legal here,[/quote] if you want to run it with a fixed-mag, with a mag lock like the bullet button, you can have an adjustable stock.


Quote:
or do I have to swap out the pistol grip to make it "featureless?" I have a bunch of 30rd pre-ban AR/M16 mags that fit the M&P 15, and which I assume are legal to use in it (with the M&P BB)...
if you want to use your large-capacity mags in it, it must be featureless and have a standard mag release. So you would need to remove the "pistol grip feature". YOu can't use 11+round mags with a BB.
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  #88  
Old 04-26-2010, 6:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I'm not saying it wasn't a legal sale. I was just saying that I doubt S&W sent the rifle into CA in that configuration. Some outside middleman FFL made it CA-legal before it was sent to your local FFL.

I was commenting on the statement, "I don't know why S&W did this for their CA shipments. " and I was saying that S&W probably didn't do that to the CA shipment because they don't ship to CA. There are only a few manufacturers that sell directly to CA in a CA-legal configuration. Everybody else lets a middleman reconfig it for CA sale.


The only feature that I want to change is the pinned non-adjustable stock. I just want to know if this mod is legal here,
if you want to run it with a fixed-mag, with a mag lock like the bullet button, you can have an adjustable stock.


if you want to use your large-capacity mags in it, it must be featureless and have a standard mag release. So you would need to remove the "pistol grip feature". YOu can't use 11+round mags with a BB.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I didn't know about the "middlemen" thing in S&W shipments to CA, but it makes sense. This is what must have happened, because I visited another dealer today who sells M&Ps WITH factory collapsible stocks...so go figure.

I went and bought a DPMS collapsible to swap out. To add insult to injury, the removal was a bit of a PITA, since the castle nut was staked to the latch plate... I know the rationale for lock nut staking, but it means you have to carefully remove the staked nut so as not to mess up other parts, and you will ruin the nut. The DPMS kit comes with the replacement nut, latch plate, stock, buffer tube, spring, and buffer, all for about $60.

+1 re the standard capacity mags. I reviewed the laws and they can't be used in the M&P or any other OLL, even one in which the AW "features" (collapsible stock, pistol grip, flash/recoil suppressor) are absent. From the way I read the laws, you can use them ONLY in a RAW AR... Guess I won't be using mine on the Smith.
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  #89  
Old 04-26-2010, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by neuron View Post
Thanks. I didn't know about the "middlemen" thing in S&W shipments to CA, but it makes sense. This is what must have happened, because I visited another dealer today who sells M&Ps WITH factory collapsible stocks...so go figure.
yup, different middleman, different californication.

Quote:
I went and bought a DPMS collapsible to swap out. To add insult to injury, the removal was a bit of a PITA, since the castle nut was staked to the latch plate... I know the rationale for lock nut staking, but it means you have to carefully remove the staked nut so as not to mess up other parts, and you will ruin the nut. The DPMS kit comes with the replacement nut, latch plate, stock, buffer tube, spring, and buffer, all for about $60.
to really add insult to injury, you probably didn't need to even swap out the buffer tube. You could have just unpinned the old stock and used it as-is, or remove the old stock and install a new stock.

Quote:
+1 re the standard capacity mags. I reviewed the laws and they can't be used in the M&P or any other OLL, even one in which the AW "features" (collapsible stock, pistol grip, flash/recoil suppressor) are absent. From the way I read the laws, you can use them ONLY in a RAW AR... Guess I won't be using mine on the Smith.
that would be incorrect. there is no law against using a large capacity magazine in a featureless rifle that does not have a fixed-mag release. You could use those mags in the S&W if you went featureless and put a standard mag release in it. At that point, it would be just like a Mini-14 or CA-legal M1a. both of those can use large capacity magazines legally.
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  #90  
Old 05-09-2010, 9:59 AM
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I was at a local Bay Area gun show recently when I happened upon a table with ARs, AKs, and a couple of MPs on it.
There was a local policeman there, and I clearly heard him asking the vendor, "are these things legal?"

As the legal owner of several AR15s, I was pleased to see the vendor produce a copy of the Calguns AW flow chart, and as he did, he replied to the officer, "they sure are", and proceeded to educate the officer.

Last edited by daveyshooter; 05-09-2010 at 10:11 AM..
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  #91  
Old 05-29-2010, 4:01 PM
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I am going to be moving in a week and will be transporting 3 OLL rifles (2 AK-47's and 1 AR-15). Can someone please evaluate my transportation plan and let me know if it appears to check out?

- All rifles have bullet buttons on them and will be stored in rifle cases, unloaded, with no magazines in the well. I will not put cable locks on them unless you guys think it would be a good idea.

- I have multiple rebuild kits that I will be transporting as well, none will be assembled into magazines. Do I need to store rebuild kits in any particular way?

- I will be transporting ammunition separately in a locked container.

- I have printed out all the relevant OLL and AW files that I could find from searching this forum.

- My vehicle will be a truck, the rifles will most likely have to ride in the bed unless I can somehow cram them behind the seats (most likely can't). I will also be moving furniture, etc. If the rifles are in the bed, I will be sure to bury them under furniture so that they are not visible to an outsider looking into the bed.

The truck is stock, not flashy in any way. I will maintain the speed limit at all times and not make any unnecessary stops. My drive is 6 hours, so that is why I am trying to be as cautious as possible, I will be on the road for quite some time.

Thanks in advance guys! I first learned about OLL's from this forum years ago and was part of one of the first group-buys in Milpitas back before any guns stores sold them, I met a lot of you back then.
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  #92  
Old 05-29-2010, 4:25 PM
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In-state move?

With bullet buttons it might be better to have empty mags in place, just to make any possible LEO explanations clearer. If the rifle case is locked you should be fine.

If it were me I would have the rebuild kits packed separately from everything else gun related but that is probably my personal paranoia.
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  #93  
Old 05-29-2010, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Dangerpin View Post
In-state move?

With bullet buttons it might be better to have empty mags in place, just to make any possible LEO explanations clearer. If the rifle case is locked you should be fine.

If it were me I would have the rebuild kits packed separately from everything else gun related but that is probably my personal paranoia.
In-state move, correct

My problem with putting empty mags in place is that I only have 1 5-round AK magazine, so I would have to buy another for the 2nd AK in order to do that.

With the rebuilds, I am trying to figure out the best place to stash them. I don't have much space to work with. I will keep them separate, however does anyone think I should go to great lengths to hide them? As in, keep all parts separate in different locations?
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  #94  
Old 05-31-2010, 4:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winnre View Post
Let's say I have a OLL in my left hand an ON list lower in my right.

How can I tell them apart? What are some of the subtle differences, if any?
by the roll-mark. One roll-mark appears "on the list" and the other roll-mark doesn't.
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  #95  
Old 05-31-2010, 5:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winnre View Post
Roll mark, as in branding?
yes

Quote:
I meant can the on-list versions be converted to full auto easier, are they stronger steal, do they have additional holes or cross-sections.. you know, stuff that actually makes a difference between the two.
no to all the above.
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  #96  
Old 05-31-2010, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by winnre View Post
Okay now I am really confused. I remember when the assault weapon law came into being and I knew it was stupid. But to see CA not let it go away like the feds did, oh well there must be a reason.
the reason the CA AW bans did not go away like the feds is that the anti-gun legislators in CA had enough votes to get the ban passed without needing to insert a sunset clause like the feds had to do in order to get the fed AW passed.

Quote:
Seems that we are simply discriminating against timing. Or maybe a company can close their doors and reopen the next day making "safer" firearms. But you say that there is no difference except where the lower is from?
they don't even need to close their doors, just change the model marked on the lower is good enough. For instance, for the most part, all of Bushmaster's aluminum AR-15 lowers are marked XM-15 and are listed. But their Carbon-15 marked composite lower is not listed. They could come up with a different model listing for an aluminum and legally sell them in CA. But it appears that they value the XM-15 model too much to do so (CG'ers have talked to them at SHOT about altering the model designantion to something off-list, without success).

Quote:
How did this pass? I am not complaining but come on now! It effectively negates the AW law because, mostly of a BB and a limited mag. Are the Brady people freaking out about this or are they okay with it?
how did what pass? The AW list, or the fact that items not listed are not considered AWs by default like the listed models? That would be due to someone suing the state and getting the court to agree that "series" was vague, and that if they wanted to ban it, they needed to specifically list that make/model.

Yes, the Brady people are not happy about it, but the cat is out of the bag. It is too late for them to close the "off-list exemption" without creating hundreds of thousands of new legal AWs.
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  #97  
Old 06-07-2010, 6:52 AM
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I may be new here but this threat actually rather irritated me. "Don't talk to the police"? Police hate, or the belief that police are ignorant is stupid. Flat out, STUPID. Every LEO, LEI, LEA that I have talked to knows what they are dealing with, they know all about the legalities of AR-15 modifications to ensure California Legality. Granted my experience rests only with Federal LE based in California. Either way believe it or not I know many police officers who are PRO personal protection, PRO personal CARRY, and very well educated on gun laws. The arrests come from gun safety issues or questionable conversions and modifications.
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  #98  
Old 06-07-2010, 7:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AQtahoe View Post
I may be new here but this threat actually rather irritated me. "Don't talk to the police"? Police hate, or the belief that police are ignorant is stupid. Flat out, STUPID. Every LEO, LEI, LEA that I have talked to knows what they are dealing with, they know all about the legalities of AR-15 modifications to ensure California Legality. Granted my experience rests only with Federal LE based in California. Either way believe it or not I know many police officers who are PRO personal protection, PRO personal CARRY, and very well educated on gun laws. The arrests come from gun safety issues or questionable conversions and modifications.
I don't think anyone here is hating on police. I respect and the job they have to do, but no one can expect them to know every single piece of the law, and be able to interpret it. They are not lawyers.

As far as "Don't Talk to Police", please watch this video (which has been posted in here already).



There are many documented cases where innocent, law-abiding citizens were unlawfully arrested. If they had simply kept their mouth shut they could have avoided this.
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  #99  
Old 06-07-2010, 7:22 AM
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I've seen the video. I was a sociology major in college and we studied a lot of criminology as well. It was required to watch and analyze multiple times in school. Like I said, every single law enforcement officer, agent, investigator I have met, become friends with, talked with knows about the bullet button conversions. I live so close to Nevada and in the National Forest which begs for people with illegal guns to "hide out and shoot" people are stupid and bring CA illegal guns here all the time. The ones who have questionable guns are contacted but if they TALK TO THE POLICE and EXPLAIN their gun RATIONALLY no one is wrongfully arrested. It has been my experience that the people who don't talk to the police and brush off any questions about their ar-15s are the ones who the officers become more suspicious of and nervous around. Not talking to the police is a double edge sword. Have you ever heard the expression: "you make more friends with a smile"
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  #100  
Old 06-07-2010, 4:46 PM
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Nope, never heard that one. I have heard the idiom, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." but I don't necessarily need to make a friend. I however agree that you should always be respectful of those who are charged with protecting us but disagree about police friend making. Never talk to police beyond what you are legally required. I have had LEO friends and I they have given me the same advice. Or more accurately, they have told me stories of how people talked themselves into a cell over and over again and that amounts to about the same thing.

Keep yourself legal, be respectful and shut the hell up.
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Old 06-07-2010, 6:57 PM
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To each their own, I suppose. I might also add that I am in the process of becoming USFS LEA. All of my experiences are with federal law enforcement agents. I have a lot of FBI friends. Local, state and county cops may be different. The Feds I know are strong proponents of personal protection and personal cary weapons, after-all in the national forests you have to expect 100% of the people you contact to be carrying a firearm. None of the LEA's I know let this fact scare them or even let it make them nervous. The mere fact that to determine if a ar-15 is CA-Legal is that you have to be examining the firearm personally. They are questionably legal, at best, from a distance.

just my two cents.
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  #102  
Old 06-08-2010, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AQtahoe View Post
So I had a long chat with my friend, and FFL dealer today. He refuses to accept or process or generally have anything to do with AR-15, AK and other assault weapons purely because it is "a silly loophole that people feel the need to squeeze through so that they can have a completely pointless gun, they get away with it by having a button that is pressed by a bullet, where the bullet is the 'tool' and the last time I checked the ATF's and DOJ's websites do not describe or define a bullet as a tool."
its fine if he doesn't want to deal with those types of firearms. His FFL, his perogative.

Regarding ATF and defining a bullet as a tool, no reason why they would, no federal law involved. CA does define a bullet as a tool on the website, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf


Quote:
ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS

5469. Definitions:

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
(a)
"detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.


Quote:
It will also be fun for you guys when you can only buy 2 boxes of ammo every 30 days starting the First of January 2011.
wrong!! There is no law going into effect January 2011 that limits us to 2 boxes of ammo per 30-days.

Quote:
I never will understand the need, desire or feeling that Assault weapons are good for home defense, hunting or whatever else you guys use them for. So have fun I guess.
and that is your opinion. Others don't share it.
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  #103  
Old 06-08-2010, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AQtahoe View Post
Please also define PRK?
People's Republic of California.

Also 45/70? Why torture yourself with that thing when you can have one of the zillion other calibers out there that is better?
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  #104  
Old 06-22-2010, 10:04 PM
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My semi-auto AK clone was designed at the end of WWII, and has no plastic.

Semi-auto rifles that shoot intermediate rounds are ideal for home defense, some kinds of hunting, and "just for fun" plinking.

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Now, don't get me wrong. I love my firearms as much as you do. I just happen to prefer wooden stocks and 1911's. My 47/70 would decimate any threat that came my way, and the most common threat I could possibly receive where I live is a bear breaking into my home. You can have all the plastic toys you want. I won't think any less of you guys. Like I said, I am a firm believer in individual personal protection and personal cary rights here in California.
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  #105  
Old 06-28-2010, 11:18 PM
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In the vein of "Don't talk to Police", another thing to consider...

Cops don't live in their uniforms, you may be speaking to one and not even be aware of it. Chances are increased if you're in an establishment that caters in any way to the armed populace.

Case in point (potentially):

Saturday, I got all itchy to make the purchase I'd been promising in anticipation of McD...since Straightline is closed Mondays, I figured I had the perfect excuse to make the 10 min drive there and give these guys some of the business I'd been meaning to send their way (mainly after seeing some of the posts from fellow Calgunners praising them for PPT and other accommodating practices--one of which I later experienced myself).

Went down there and talked to the guys about a half hour before close...told them how I heard of them and that I was in the market for a my first rifle in honor of the SCOTUS decision pending. At the time I probably didn't possess the level of knowledge required to be there (legalities, what to look for in a good rifle or avoid in a bad one)...so I quickly held a couple of rifles and went with the Century Arms WASR 10/63 because:

1. I wanted something with wood furniture in my safe.

2. AK platform was more in my price range for a starter rifle than AR.

3. Gentlemen in the store said they sold a lot of those, and the only other thing I saw on the shelf that looked like it fit 1 & 2 was a Dragunov that would have set me back another couple hundred bucks.


I came home and did my research, and plan on going back later in the week to inspect my particular rifle a little closer to see how I did in the "WASR Lotto"...cosmetically at least. Once I get it out, I'll post a range report.

So back to my comment on talking to LEO's...stopped at La Habra B5 on the way home to see if they had any ammo, and ran into a guy who was BS'ing with the sales guy to no end. I was in a hurry so I had to cut in a couple times to get the kid to check the end of the shelf for 7.62x39 (none there). So silly me, I get to giggling about my new purchase and Mr. Long Winded starts asking me more about it, if I've got it with me...I tell him at least twice that I just started papers on it but the FUD is non-stop at that point.

Before I could get out of there with my things, here's a sampling of what I had to wade through...in between the guy occupying the salesman (I could see the poor kid looking for a way to gracefully end the convo so he could help me) rattling off "war stories", after directly saying he never saw combat during his Army service.


"What is it a bolt action? If it has one of those 'banana clips' you better take that thing down to LHPD right now!" (this after I twice mentioned that the gun was in a wait period and I had just purchased it directly from the FFL)


"That Mini 14 right there is what you want to get. That's pretty much the best you can do in California when it comes to black rifles." (too bad I didn't know B5 was currently selling the IO at the time, doh)

"Those bullet buttons are grey areas in the law, and only the rich or privileged see the benefit of those."

Same guy had no clue about McD when I brought it up, telling him..."Monday starts the ball rolling, we'll be a free state just like everyone else soon enough.", and he also brushed it off real quick when I suggested he check out CGN.

(quick note: the LEO forum is one of the first things i usually mention to people I meet and tell about CGN...I think it gives a certain air of legitimacy FWIW to those who have doubts when I tell them that we have current and retired LEO/MIL as regular posters on the site. I always mention that everything is "on the up and up" and that no one here would last long attempting to make posts that encourage anything illegal).

I know it may sound paranoid or out of place without having the full context of the situation...but this guy's pointed line of questioning, combined with his asking me if I had the rifle with me, the FUD he was spouting and a couple of visual clues (haircut, style of dress with no tattoos) had me at least re-evaluating that whole exchange after reading through this thread...thus my (long winded...and no, the irony is not lost ) words of caution.

As usual, CGN, thanks for being here for the law abiding gun-owner in California and all the efforts on our behalf to keep us on the right side of the law.

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  #106  
Old 07-07-2010, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jackliu239 View Post
I am sorry for asking this, but what does OLL stand for?
Off List Lower.
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  #107  
Old 08-05-2010, 9:48 AM
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Default Am I Legal?

- Or maybe the Q should be, "If I'm illegal, how illegal am I??"

First post on this great Forum. I've read and/or scanned this thread pretty carefully, not sure if this is the right place for this query, but seems it should be at least close.

Lifetime trained shooter here, NRA, NAGR, GOA, etc. Many guns, brand spankin' new to AR's. Somehow, in my months of research prior to placing my configured and option-selected order for a Rock River Elite Comp, I had not heard of Calguns.net. Shame on me!

My first exposure to Calguns was on the day I picked up my RRA LAR-15 Elite Comp from my FFL last week. I took it to a local Tactical (AR, AK, shotgun, etc.) shop I had just discovered that day. I was looking for a few supplies, tools, Big Latch, rail covers, etc.

The proprietor took one look at my carbine, remarked that since it's a RRA upper on a RRA lower, it's an ILLEGAL weapon. He took a quick look around to see if there were any LEO's in the shop, and immediately knocked out the pivot pin, handing it back to me and advising me to never enter his shop again with it assembled, because it's a felony, and having it on site is a risk to his business.

Hm. My FFL had indicated that bringing this carbine into CA would be legal as long as it had the bullet button conversion, which was done by the out of state dealer he works with. I explained my understanding based on what I had been informed by my FFL. His response was that FFLs don't necessarily know the law. He does, and I'm in violation of State law.

For clarity, this is what I now have in my possession:

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=374

His suggestion to me was either replace the upper, or start over with a new lower. He printed out and handed me the current CALGUNS CA Centerfire, Semi-Auto, Rifle ID flow chart, which resembled several others I had previously seen, but had not attempted to decipher, since I had the assurance of several other Pro's in addition to my FFL that my carbine would be legal with the bullet button conversion. SURE ENOUGH -- it lists, "Rock River Arms, Inc.: Standard A-4 Flattop" in Appendix B.

So now the Q is this: Can any of you CA Law experts confirm or refute the legal status of this carbine in CA? Any knowledgeable, rational, fact-based takes on the pickle I seem to've got myself into here?

Any appropriate supporting links, etc. most welcome!!

Pls reply ASAP, I'm scheduled for a day with some Pals at the range on Saturday and don't want to end the day with a lawyer, a fine, harassment, or the slammer!

-- One formerly law-abiding, but now be-FUDDLED (as in full of FUD) new AR owner, and apparently potential new unconvicted felon

Last edited by Hatch; 08-05-2010 at 9:50 AM..
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  #108  
Old 08-05-2010, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatch View Post
- Or maybe the Q should be, "If I'm illegal, how illegal am I??"
If you haven't yet seen the flowchart, it's definitely work taking a look at (and printing a copy or two for your range bag)

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Appendix B on the flowchart specifically lists several RRA AR's. Be absolutely certain that yours isn't one of those listed.

Last edited by Chris M; 08-05-2010 at 11:50 AM..
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  #109  
Old 08-05-2010, 12:38 PM
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Hatch...

The only RRA rifles banned by specific model are the following (in 11 CCR 5499, the "Kasler" list):

- Rock River Arms, Inc. Car A2
- Rock River Arms, Inc. Car A4 Flattop
- Rock River Arms, Inc. LE Tactical Carbine
- Rock River Arms, Inc. NM A2 - DCM Legal
- Rock River Arms, Inc. Standard A-2
- Rock River Arms, Inc. Standard A-4 Flattop

A Rock River Arms "Elite Comp" is NOT banned by name.

As long as you are not one of these six banned-by-name RRA models and you are also SB23 compliant (i.e, BulletButton maglock+10rd mag, etc.) you're good. If someone causes you legal trouble we will defend you - I don't think that's gonna happen at this late date.

The FFL you talked to was correct in his general concern, but wrong in the specifics in your case. RRA receivers are indeed off-list (marked as "LAR-15") - but certain individual rifle *models" are banned: these models, however, have nothing to do with the markings on the receiver (which is only "LAR-15"). Thus in this case an unbanned receiver has a risk of being on a gun that could be banned by name as a whole.

For details on how certain RRA rifles are problematic, please see the thread on Calguns I created awhile back describing the situation and methods to alleviate prospective problems.

For your situation I'd just keep on the way you are and shoot the hell out of it. Keep your receipt just in case.
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  #110  
Old 08-06-2010, 8:08 AM
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Default OK, Thanks

I appreciate the replies, guys.

Thanks for your patience.

Bill, following your ref to previous threads, I believe you got to the crux of the matter here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
NO!

...if an RRA upper is affixed to an RRA lower such that the resultant combination produced is one of the banned RRA entities on the Kasler list (11 CCR 5499) such as "RRA Standard A4 Flattop", etc. - you could be in trouble, as that may be regardable as a 'listed' Kasler entity.

This may be a defendable case for a variety of other reasons, but you shouldn't go there for practicality's sake.
Otherwise, you might end up having to fight son-of-Harrott, etc.

If I had an RRA receiver, I would not put an RRA upper on it - or the RRA upper/configuration would be so sufficiently/visibily different from a banned entity that it could in no way be regarded as one of the banned RRA entities.

There is low probability that this'd be detected by cops/DA/crime lab - they're likely to say RRA LAR15 is the make/model - but the risk does exist and should be avoided.

Period.
. . .[sigh]. . . And here I thought I was PAST the steep part of the legal learning curve long before I had my FFL and out of state dealer place my order with RRA! Typical AR Newb ignorance on my part, I'm sure.

Seems to me the Sacto Power Elites have succeeded in doing what they do best -- Deliberately creating a horrifically complex, dark and confusing, convoluted abomination. It's a silly, indecipherable, quasi-contradictory legislative nightmare, so that any Citizen who sincerely INTENDS to follow the rule of law (such as myself) is forced into a dubious, submissive posture, and lives under constant threat of The State. True intimidation is achieved by exploiting intentional confusion and grey areas on both sides of the law.

We're not really Citizens anymore, are we? They're closing in on exactly where they want their SUBJECTS -- in constant fear of being arbitrarily persecuted. Get out of line according to the bureaucrat's personal opinion of what's "out of line", and they won't hesitate to bring the full force of the liberal activist dominated judical system to bear. Ever more scaling ladders appear on the walls of the Second Amendment. . .

I figure best not provoke the demons of tyranny, but be prepared to defend myself at all times against the relentless onslaught. This fits my personal philosophy behind owning an AR in the first place.

OK, still behind the curve on CALGUNS, but eager to master it --

One more Q: Where to find my best legal defense on this - just in case?

- Hatch

Last edited by Hatch; 08-06-2010 at 3:22 PM..
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  #111  
Old 08-18-2010, 10:07 AM
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With regard to the Sacramento PD sheet posted here for our pleasure.

Can't or wouldn't an uneducated officer just look at that and say or think.... anyone could have made up a sheet like that?

What would be great (well then again maybe it would come back and shoot us in the foot), if members from this site were to put together a traveling informational course on the California Legal AR's, to go out and teach the LE personel the truths surrounding the missinformation? Or would that be just asking for trouble?

It seems to me. If it is legal to own the BB AR's (which it is), that helping to educate the LE would be a huge step in the right direction. Or do you think it would just insite the anti gun folk?

What are your thoughts?
This is an excellent suggestion. CGF is already working on this.
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  #112  
Old 08-30-2010, 7:46 PM
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If your rifle is featureless, you can use 30 round mags as long as you acquired them legally
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  #113  
Old 08-30-2010, 9:02 PM
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Default Look Around YOU

Just as an addendum to the insight posted... when you shoot your OLL at a public range be aware that LE is usually there as well. Maybe shooting right next you. So remember those 30 and 20 round mags that you cherish?, Leave them at home, use your head and remember that your action reflect on all or us gun owners.
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  #114  
Old 08-31-2010, 8:33 AM
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Thanks, so acquired legally would be how?
Broadly speaking, acquired before 2000.

(Assuming you're in CA)
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  #115  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:03 PM
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what about a pistol grip? most of us have it on our OLL and on the flowchart is shown as illegal. please explain...
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  #116  
Old 08-31-2010, 11:43 PM
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By using a bullet button, you get a rifle without a detachable magazine, and that skips over the part about pistol grips and flash suppressors etc. on the flowchart.
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  #117  
Old 09-01-2010, 8:24 AM
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could you please explain HOW if you have a "non detachable" radlock magazine, this SKIPS over the fact that you still have a pistol grip, flash suppressor, and magpul extendable stock.

can someone please explain in legal terms how the flowchart allows you to supposedly SKIP over this very pertinent legal matter....

I just would like to know my rights and legalities of my rifle..
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  #118  
Old 09-20-2010, 9:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noveskePL View Post
could you please explain HOW if you have a "non detachable" radlock magazine, this SKIPS over the fact that you still have a pistol grip, flash suppressor, and magpul extendable stock.

can someone please explain in legal terms how the flowchart allows you to supposedly SKIP over this very pertinent legal matter....
Because when you reach the part that asks "Does the Rifle have a detachable magazine?", you answer "No" and move on to the next step(s) on the flowchart, which have nothing do do with the 'evil features'...thus 'skipping' the 'evil features'.

A mag-lock is a mag-lock. It locks the magazine, so that your gun does not have a detachable magazine, therefore, the evil features don't even come into play.

If the flowchart isn't clear enough, then read the penal code.
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  #119  
Old 09-21-2010, 11:11 AM
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So if your specific rifle model isn't listed in the tables of the flowchart and it doesn't meet any of the criteria for an Assault Rifle, then technically it isn't considered an AW in California right? There's a Norinco AK style rifle I'm interested in. But it isn't specifically listed.
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  #120  
Old 09-21-2010, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlltest View Post
So if your specific rifle model isn't listed in the tables of the flowchart and it doesn't meet any of the criteria for an Assault Rifle, then technically it isn't considered an AW in California right? There's a Norinco AK style rifle I'm interested in. But it isn't specifically listed.
Carefully follow the flowchart, and you'll see that there are many characteristics of a rifle that could make it an "assault weapon".

If the make/model are specifically listed in Appendix A, B, or C, then the rifle is automatically an assault weapon regardless of configuration.

If it's not listed in any of the 3 appendixes, then it must have a fixed magazine (properly installed mag-lock will suffice), or have all 'evil' features* removed.

* Evil Features:
Pistol Grip
Forward Pistol Grip
Flash Suppressor
Folding / Collapsible Stock
Thumbhole Stock
Grenade Launcher
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