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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-20-2010, 1:27 PM
59caddy 59caddy is offline
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Default Legality of a 50 Caliber Upper in California?

I have done a few searches and seem to get conflicting information.
Question: Is it legal to purchase a 50 caliber upper, mount it on an AR lower, and shoot it in California? This would be a bolt action, single shot, no magazine upper.
If it is legal, is there a manufacturer/supplier that is recommended?
Thanks!
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Old 09-20-2010, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 59caddy View Post
I have done a few searches and seem to get conflicting information.
Question: Is it legal to purchase a 50 caliber upper, mount it on an AR lower, and shoot it in California? This would be a bolt action, single shot, no magazine upper.
If it is legal, is there a manufacturer/supplier that is recommended?
Thanks!
That depends on which 50 caliber you're talking about. .50 BMG rifles are restricted, so you generally could not legally do what you propose with a .50 BMG upper in CA unless the lower was registered as a .50 BMG rifle before the deadline (or possibly registered as an assault weapon; I don't remember the rules for .50 BMG conversions of registered assault weapons). If you're talking about one of the other .50 caliber chamberings such as .50 Beowulf, then you would just need to follow the same assault weapon laws that you would need to follow for a .223 chambering.
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Old 09-20-2010, 1:54 PM
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Forget about 50 beowulf. If you want a bolt action .50 cal upper, either go with a 50BMG and put it on a registered lower or get a .510 DTC upper and put it on any lower. Before you just jump into the 50 game, you really should do some research and join the FCSA. Many manufacturers/vendors give FCSA discounts which more than offset the cost of membership.
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Old 09-20-2010, 2:06 PM
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50caliber firearms that are NOT specifically "50BMG" chambered are not restricted.

50BMG rifles required registration by April 30, 2006.

Possession of a separate 50BMG upper (that is not a firearm) separate from a lower (that is a firearm) is legal, as there is no 'constructive possession' for 50BMG rifles. Nevertheless it would be a good idea to keep them well separated and locked away from each other (including at home), and not transport them in daily use... no need for cop/DA "bait".

A registered AW can become a 50BMG rifle without any special additional registration.
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Old 09-20-2010, 2:10 PM
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I want one of those BOHICA .50BMG uppers. Badly. But, I have to wait until the ban goes away ...
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Old 09-20-2010, 2:12 PM
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http://www.tactilite.com/ Like these !!!
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Old 09-20-2010, 4:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loather View Post
I want one of those BOHICA .50BMG uppers. Badly. But, I have to wait until the ban goes away ...
Why a BOHICA? They are still the new guy on the block and there are 5 or 6 other compnaies who produce 50 uppers. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against BOHICA but, it's 3rd on my list as far as 50 uppers go. But, if you want one, you can always find one in .510 DTC. Of course, both of my first two choices (ALS and Spider Firearms) will chamber their uppers in DTC too.
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Old 09-20-2010, 6:27 PM
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I always like to post this link in response to this thread's question:

http://fiftycal.org/newletters/070822/

Edit: Since the conclusion is well down in the newsletter, the gist is what others have said in this thread: 50BMG upper is OK on an already registered AW.
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Old 09-20-2010, 6:52 PM
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that reminds me, what ever happened with this:

Quote:
In 2006, in recognition of and response to this confusion, the legislature adopted resolution ACR 73, instructing the California Law Review Commission to rewrite the laws - particularly the laws addressing firearms transfers, so that they are more easily understood. The author noted:
I remember that the "revised" laws were included in pending legislation last year but don't remember the outcome.
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Old 09-20-2010, 6:57 PM
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Have a look at this site. They have uppers in .50 DTC and they are a quality product:

http://www.ferret50.com/

If you are in the Los Angeles area, there is a monthly .50 cal shoot at Angeles Range. A pic from this past Sunday:



Try the link to the site in my sig line with more site links and info on .50 firearms.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:45 PM
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If you are talking about a Bohica or Zel Custom uppers in .50 BMG then yes, you could possess even a .50 BMG upper for the AR platform from them but you couldn't use it CA unless you had a RAW lower receiver. Zel Custom makes some pretty cool stuff, and I REALLY want one of their side-mag fed .50 BMG uppers. I don't feel like having to drive to another state just to put it on a lower and shoot it though, and the .416 Barrett ammo is too damn expensive.
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Old 09-21-2010, 8:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Why a BOHICA? They are still the new guy on the block and there are 5 or 6 other compnaies who produce 50 uppers. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against BOHICA but, it's 3rd on my list as far as 50 uppers go. But, if you want one, you can always find one in .510 DTC. Of course, both of my first two choices (ALS and Spider Firearms) will chamber their uppers in DTC too.
The BOHICA is relatively inexpensive (Not sure if this is a good thing, really!) and comes with some features I like. I also find the aesthetics pleasing. That's not to say I wouldn't go for one of the other ones, though - I'm not stuck on BOHICA.

.510 DTC is out for me because frankly I don't want that kind of an oddball caliber that nobody stocks, isn't made commercially (that I've seen), and when you do find it is very expensive. There's also that nonsense between the EDM spec and the Euro spec .510 DTC, and that just *screams,* "STAY AWAY!" Besides, I can find surplus .50 BMG for $1-2 a round if I look hard enough.

Anyhow, to steer it back on topic, no, there's nothing inherently illegal about the .50 BMG uppers in California until such time as you attach it to a lower. That said, I wouldn't recommend owning one anyways as it could land you in trouble.
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Old 09-21-2010, 8:55 AM
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And, general background - it of course does not even pass rational basis that .50 BMG is illegal but .510 DTC is fine. As well, they obviously can't just ban rifle above a certain caliber, since the canonical [ha!] revolutionary war Springfield Armory rifle used by the men that wrote the 2nd Amendment was .58 caliber.

We've read the law very carefully a number of times, and there doesn't seem to be wiggle room on .50 BMG, it's reasonably well-crafted by the poor standards we have in Sacramento. There is a very tiny crack in the law that I'm not going to detail here. With a lot of work and money, I believe we could, through lawsuits, get a crowbar in that crack, and eventually crack it wide open (much as what happened with the off-list "named" assault weapons). I expect, though, we'll do a frontal "this doesn't even pass rational basis" attack once we have a standard of review, and some spare cycles.

ETA: I guess I should add something about this to my FAQ...
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Old 09-21-2010, 9:05 AM
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Having examined many BOHICA uppers and seen the problems owners are having, I personally would not own one. That's my opinion and some would vehemently disagree. I know plenty of guys that are happy with their's, but YMMV. Bohica DTC uppers are now discontinued, so they are no longer an option for Californians that actually want to shoot in California anyway.

FYI, There are two ammo manufacturers that produce .50 DTC and they both post here on CalGuns:

mrkubota
Triple R Munitions

Currently, .50 DTC is the only option for Californians without RAW lowers that want the real .50 cal experience in a rifle. True, DTC is a bit more work to reload than BMG, but it's not a big deal. As mentioned above, ammo is available commercially if you don't want to reload.

The EDM/Europ spec thing, although unfortunate, is overblown. Buy an upper from a reputable manufacturer and buy ammo from one of the vendors mentioned here or reload with EDM dies. You will have no issues.

I shoot and reload both calibers in relatively large volume so I have first hand experience with this.

If you want to buy a new firearm and legally shoot only BMG in Cali, get an M2 or M3! You could also wait for the ban to go away.......
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Old 09-21-2010, 6:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loather View Post
The BOHICA is relatively inexpensive (Not sure if this is a good thing, really!) and comes with some features I like. I also find the aesthetics pleasing. That's not to say I wouldn't go for one of the other ones, though - I'm not stuck on BOHICA.

.510 DTC is out for me because frankly I don't want that kind of an oddball caliber that nobody stocks, isn't made commercially (that I've seen), and when you do find it is very expensive. There's also that nonsense between the EDM spec and the Euro spec .510 DTC, and that just *screams,* "STAY AWAY!" Besides, I can find surplus .50 BMG for $1-2 a round if I look hard enough.

Anyhow, to steer it back on topic, no, there's nothing inherently illegal about the .50 BMG uppers in California until such time as you attach it to a lower. That said, I wouldn't recommend owning one anyways as it could land you in trouble.
You get what you pay for. Personally, I don't see the reason to not spend a bit more and get a gun proven to shoot .5 moa at 1000 yards.

DTC is not as "oddball" as you think. There are several commercial manufactures of DTC ammo. I think Ben soell some for just over $2/round. If you can point me to some BMG for $1/round, I'll take at least 1000 rounds. I'm pretty good at finding deals on 50 stuff and I haven't see $1/round ammo for over 10 years. Although, I've still got components that allow me to reload for less than $1/round.

Why don't you recomend anyone owning one? They are not illegal to use in Ca on a registered AW or 50BMG Rifle lower. Also, just because someone owns a 50BMG upper and not a registered lower doesn't mean that they can't put it on their buddy's RAW/R50BMG lower and use it while the owner of the lower is there.
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Old 09-23-2010, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
You get what you pay for. Personally, I don't see the reason to not spend a bit more and get a gun proven to shoot .5 moa at 1000 yards.
After looking at the Zel Custom uppers I think you might have convinced me ... that mag-fed T2 might have jumped to the top of my list.

Quote:
DTC is not as "oddball" as you think. There are several commercial manufactures of DTC ammo. I think Ben soell some for just over $2/round. If you can point me to some BMG for $1/round, I'll take at least 1000 rounds. I'm pretty good at finding deals on 50 stuff and I haven't see $1/round ammo for over 10 years. Although, I've still got components that allow me to reload for less than $1/round.
It's oddball enough for me to not want it. And you're right, I exaggerated quite a bit on the $1-2/round number: I can find it all day for around $4/round and occasionally find it as low as $2 and change.

Quote:
Why don't you recomend anyone owning one? They are not illegal to use in Ca on a registered AW or 50BMG Rifle lower. Also, just because someone owns a 50BMG upper and not a registered lower doesn't mean that they can't put it on their buddy's RAW/R50BMG lower and use it while the owner of the lower is there.
They may not be illegal for someone to use on a RAW or .50 BMG rifle lower, true. But, in the general case where one of these isn't available, you're kind of playing with fire. An overzealous cop could have a field day when he sees it, which is generally a waste of my time, as well as CGF's time ('cause that'd be my phone call). I'd get off because I had done nothing illegal, but not after a significant waste of time.

So, I should probably rephrase my earlier comment:

I don't recommend anyone owning one who doesn't also already own or otherwise have access to a RAW lower or .50BMG lower.
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loather View Post
After looking at the Zel Custom uppers I think you might have convinced me ... that mag-fed T2 might have jumped to the top of my list.
WARNING

Zel has a recall due to the possibility of OBD!!!!!!!!!!! Please, anyone with a Zel upper, look in the current VHP for details or contact them directly!!!!!! DO NOT fire a Zel upper unless you are 100% positive that it is not one which needs to be recalled!

That said, personally, I would not get a mag fed upper. I prefer an action without a big hole for a mag in it. But, I'm looking at it as a precision rifle instead of a small tool compensator. If you are serious about getting into the 50 world, join the FCSA and do a lot of research before jumping into an expensive purchase that you might later regret.

Also, there are several entry level rock buster complete rifles around for about the same price as an upper plus a built lower. Serbu and Noreen are two that would probably be a little more precise than a Zel. East Ridge Gun Co. makes an entry level priced rifle that does pretty well in matches too. I believe that all three of these manufacturers will chamber their rifles in DTC too.
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:46 AM
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What kind of lower do these .50bmg uppers fit on? Ar-10?
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:50 AM
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What kind of lower do these .50bmg uppers fit on? Ar-10?
A standard AR lower. I believe that Spider Firearms makes an upper that fits on a AR-10 pattern lower as well.
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevic View Post
What kind of lower do these .50bmg uppers fit on? Ar-10?
I'm not an expert - there may be other choices - but I do know if you have a registered .50 lower (which is just a standard AR caliber-free lower), you can put a single-shot .50 BMG upper on it.

I've never been clear on whether an AR-10 lower can be chambered in .50 BMG, or not.
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_quark View Post
I'm not an expert - there may be other choices - but I do know if you have a registered .50 lower (which is just a standard AR caliber-free lower), you can put a single-shot .50 BMG upper on it.

I've never been clear on whether an AR-10 lower can be chambered in .50 BMG, or not.
Personally, I don't see the reason to use an AR10 lower but, it would be easy enough to make a 50 upper to fit an AR10 lower. So, it is possible.
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Personally, I don't see the reason to use an AR10 lower but, it would be easy enough to make a 50 upper to fit an AR10 lower. So, it is possible.
What I expressed poorly there is that I don't know if you could have an AR-10 that would actually allow for a .50 BMG magazine feed.
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
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What I expressed poorly there is that I don't know if you could have an AR-10 that would actually allow for a .50 BMG magazine feed.
It would be just like the mag fed AR15 uppers. The mag would feed from the side of the action.
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
It would be just like the mag fed AR15 uppers. The mag would feed from the side of the action.
Thanks. Just wasn't sure if an AR-10 was physically big enough to feed a .50 BMG through the mag well.

Which, to those of you who own a .50 BMG and/or an AR-10 may be a stupid question, but I've never personally fired either.
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Old 09-24-2010, 2:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_quark View Post
Thanks. Just wasn't sure if an AR-10 was physically big enough to feed a .50 BMG through the mag well.

Which, to those of you who own a .50 BMG and/or an AR-10 may be a stupid question, but I've never personally fired either.
It would require a miracle of engineering.

Here's a pic I found of a 7.62x54r next to a .50

http://www.flickr.com/photos/88874258@N00/3299933876/
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