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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-02-2010, 12:17 PM
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Default California UOCers: please avoid black rifle drama...

Hello UOCers,

I'll not go into another Bill W. harangue here about merits (or lack thereof) of UOCing, or the political consequences we luckily dodged.

[We were fortunate *this year* to end up having some big help from unexpected quarters and from drama around two legislators (one with mental function issues, one very ill) that would've required being wheeled in on gurneys to vote. Who knows what'll happen next year.]

But what I WILL specifically ask for, however, is to please REFRAIN FROM (U)OC OF BLACK RIFLES/"EVIL LONG GUNS", etc.

Certain groups don't need to be alienated and are disposed to work with us on certain key legislative matters of important mutual/overlapping interest in the future. OCing of EBRs can result in more Saldaña-style PR drama with an even more inflammatory aspect. Without drama, and a "low position on the radar" certain things can, if not get 'fixed', improve quite a bit.

Let's not speculate publicly here, but I'm hoping some folks can 'read between the lines'. Fixups with multi-group support are much cheaper than litigation.

Thank you.
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Last edited by bwiese; 09-02-2010 at 12:31 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-02-2010, 12:19 PM
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I agree.
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  #3  
Old 09-02-2010, 12:25 PM
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I agree as well, even at the risk of being called a hypocrite by someone bound to post later. It seems rather common for someone to take a valid suggestion and consider it an authoritarian attempt to regulate their behavior.

If one looks at the history of this bill, it is an amazing thing that it didn't pass. It was very close.
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Old 09-02-2010, 12:28 PM
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nuff said.
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  #5  
Old 09-02-2010, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Hello UOCers,

I'll not go into another Bill W. harangue here about merits (or lack thereof) of UOCing, or the political consequences we luckily dodged.

[We were fortunate *this year* to end up having some big help from unexpected quarters and from drama around two legislators (one with mental function issues, one very ill) that would've required being wheeled in on gurneys to vote. Who knows what'll happen next year.]

But what I WILL specifically ask for, however, is to please REFRAIN FROM (U)OC OF BLACK RIFLES/"EVIL LONG GUNS", etc.


Certain groups don't need to be alienated and are disposed to work with us on certain key matters of important mutual/overlapping interest in the future. OCing of EBRs can result in more Saldaña-style PR drama with an even more inflammatory aspect.

Let's not speculate publicly here, but I'm hoping some folks can 'read between the lines'.

Thank you.


^^ This.... agreed, 10000000000000%

AB 1934 was defeated by the skin of midnight's teeth.
AB 1810 already attempted to put long guns on the chopping block.
Let's NOT add any more fuel to the fire that MIGHT flare up next year.

And Always remember - "Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It"



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  #6  
Old 09-02-2010, 12:29 PM
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Could this be a sticky?

And yes, just a few minutes more and AB1934 would likely have been law.

Edit: I'd just like to point out that this really applies to everyone - not just to those who are ordinarily considered UOCers. I have an EBR (RAW) and I will now endeavor to make sure that thing is just never seen except when it is at the range.
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  #7  
Old 09-02-2010, 12:35 PM
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If i saw someone walking down the street with an ar15 id probably wonder what the hell they are doing and be cautious
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  #8  
Old 09-02-2010, 12:48 PM
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Are people UOCing rifles, much less black rifles?
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  #9  
Old 09-02-2010, 12:50 PM
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No need to provoke the beast. I feel the same about any UOC rallies. Why look for trouble, look what it almost cost us.
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  #10  
Old 09-02-2010, 12:57 PM
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I've yet to find and be part of a meaningful UOC event. I ain't going in it alone, and want to be part of a dedicated group that knows whats it's doing, has it's bases covered, and backs all participant's backs. This would include dedicated cameramen/microphone recorders, and perhaps an attorney present. And, the no-brainer, my personal UOC weapon would be a wooden stock, non-EBR type rifle.

Bweise is speaking from sheer logic and wisdom here, I'm not just taking his word for it. Anyone with half a mind of the anti-gun ways of 'Fortress California' knows this already.
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  #11  
Old 09-02-2010, 1:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shotgun Man View Post
Are people UOCing rifles, much less black rifles?
There was at least one guy with an OLL EBR in one recent group rally in the Capitol. [Seems CHP had a van, calling people over quietly and was doing "e' checks and/or background checks.]

We've also heard there were various threats by certain individuals in the larger UOC community to parade around with EBRs if 1934 had passed.

If this happens, "more than rifle UOC" can be affected.
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  #12  
Old 09-02-2010, 1:02 PM
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I think Bill's words are wise. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should.
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  #13  
Old 09-02-2010, 1:38 PM
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Is there a way to make a sticky flash, maybe neon?
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  #14  
Old 09-02-2010, 1:43 PM
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I hope you don't mind, Bill, but I forwarded your message to my group. None of them were planning on open carrying any rifle, but I felt it an important message to share.

Note that I do not condone or encourage my members to open carry rifles, period.
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  #15  
Old 09-02-2010, 1:49 PM
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Heard loud and clear. Would hesitate to exercise UOC in general unless absolutely necessary anyway.
Lets gain some ground first. Not throw a parade at the little scrap of freedom we've retained.
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  #16  
Old 09-02-2010, 2:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stitchnicklas View Post
mr.wiese is awesomely correct,oucer's need to tone down the stupidity,there is never a need to ouc a black rifle.

this does need to be a sticky ,i agree..
It is typically more productive when asking someone to refrain from doing something for the greater good if you treat them well. Calling them names will rarely convince them to cooperate with you.

Also, when you are calling the intelligence of another into question it often makes you look bad if you do not use standard capitalization and word spacing. Getting important TLA's such as UOC wrong also do nothing to support your position, again, especially when you are calling others stupid.
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  #17  
Old 09-02-2010, 2:06 PM
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We have the right to defend ourselves. In our society the expectation is that pistols are for defense and rifles are for offense. With this in mind UOCing a pistol is a no-brainer legal thing to do.
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  #18  
Old 09-02-2010, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by winnre View Post
We have the right to defend ourselves. In our society the expectation is that pistols are for defense and rifles are for offense. With this in mind UOCing a pistol is a no-brainer legal thing to do.
I've never heard that before.

The old westerns, Rifleman, etc., teach me otherwise.
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  #19  
Old 09-02-2010, 3:02 PM
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I wouldn't do it nor would I encourage it but I still want to see it so I can laugh lol.
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  #20  
Old 09-02-2010, 3:14 PM
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Boy, I'm glad my AR pistol is almost done.













Just kidding, UOC of an AR pistol is double dumb.

Maybe I should bend up some Kydex just in case.
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  #21  
Old 09-02-2010, 3:27 PM
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If 1934 had passed I think EBRs would have been the next item to carry to make a point.
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  #22  
Old 09-02-2010, 3:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stitchnicklas View Post
sorry dan,but if it quacks like a duck,walks like a duck,looks like a duck..then it must be a duck.

some oucer's out there are extremely misinformed and irrational to logic.
there is zero logic in open carry of a AR-15 in public just because you can..
Dan's post was well written and filled to the brim with logic.
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  #23  
Old 09-02-2010, 3:54 PM
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winnre, it's well understood that rifles would have been used by the UOC movement. What Bill's asking is that folks committed to participating in UOC activities refrain from implicating long guns since it would damage or reverse some positive things next session.
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  #24  
Old 09-02-2010, 4:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevic View Post
If i saw someone walking down the street with an ar15 id probably wonder what the hell they are doing and be cautious
Although quite frankly I'd probably feel the same way if I saw someone lugging a 590 down the street as well. (even as a 590 owner)
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Old 09-02-2010, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Hello UOCers,

I'll not go into another Bill W. harangue here about merits (or lack thereof) of UOCing, or the political consequences we luckily dodged.

[We were fortunate *this year* to end up having some big help from unexpected quarters and from drama around two legislators (one with mental function issues, one very ill) that would've required being wheeled in on gurneys to vote. Who knows what'll happen next year.]

But what I WILL specifically ask for, however, is to please REFRAIN FROM (U)OC OF BLACK RIFLES/"EVIL LONG GUNS", etc.

Certain groups don't need to be alienated and are disposed to work with us on certain key legislative matters of important mutual/overlapping interest in the future. OCing of EBRs can result in more Saldaña-style PR drama with an even more inflammatory aspect. Without drama, and a "low position on the radar" certain things can, if not get 'fixed', improve quite a bit.

Let's not speculate publicly here, but I'm hoping some folks can 'read between the lines'. Fixups with multi-group support are much cheaper than litigation.

Thank you.
I can agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stitchnicklas View Post
mr.wiese is awesomely correct,oucer's need to tone down the irrationality,there is never a need to ouc a black rifle.

this does need to be a sticky ,i agree..




edited for dan
there iznt a nede 2 due a lott uv thingz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stitchnicklas View Post
sorry dan,but if it quacks like a duck,walks like a duck,looks like a duck..then it must be a duck.

some oucer's out there are extremely misinformed and irrational to logic.
there is zero logic in open carry of a AR-15 in public just because you can..
Just because they don't agree with you or Bwiese doesn't mean they are misinformed or irrational. Also, there are a lot of reasons why carrying a rifle is perfectly legitimate. Feel free to thumb through the last 200 years of history to find why.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Boy, I'm glad my AR pistol is almost done.













Just kidding, UOC of an AR pistol is double dumb.

Maybe I should bend up some Kydex just in case.
Why? A handgun is a handgun. Just get a decent sling and either make or procure one of those little keeper things so the pistol chills out at the 4:00 position.
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Old 09-02-2010, 4:23 PM
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Everytime the wise ones speak and ask for us NOT to do something, we should listen. Some people choose not to and are putting us in a precarious and vulnerable situation by doing so.
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Old 09-02-2010, 4:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
Although quite frankly I'd probably feel the same way if I saw someone lugging a 590 down the street as well. (even as a 590 owner)
I wouldn't even think twice. Hell, I would probably strike up a conversation about it.
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Old 09-02-2010, 4:26 PM
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You do acknowledge how extraordinarily anomalous you are, right?

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Originally Posted by pullnshoot25 View Post
I wouldn't even think twice. Hell, I would probably strike up a conversation about it.
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Old 09-02-2010, 4:34 PM
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You do acknowledge how extraordinarily anomalous you are, right?
Apparently so, apparently so.
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Old 09-02-2010, 4:44 PM
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completely agree with OP
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  #31  
Old 09-02-2010, 4:49 PM
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I just hope and pray the UOC groups don't hose all the work that has been done to allow us to have our black rifles.
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Old 09-02-2010, 4:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom View Post
I think Bill's words are wise. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should.
Wise Words
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  #33  
Old 09-02-2010, 5:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom View Post
I think Bill's words are wise. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should.
OK, although I know Bwiese's request is logical and is part of a bigger picture strategy, that may be beneficial to us as firearms owners at some time in the future, I really don't like the argument for it. Let me make an ad absurdem extension of Crom's, just4fun's, broncobob's and other's slightly obsequios, fawning, obedience pledges to bwiese's request...
Quote:
Just because we have the right to go the range, doesnt mean we should...

Just because we have the right to free speech; doesnt mean we should start blogs...
the argument you are all unconsciously making is; is that exercising our rights will cause us to lose them. I disagree.

Dove season opened on Monday, I know this because they always wake me up at o-dark thirty every Sep. 1st! Anyways, I can't just walk down the levee past the subdivisions to get out in the fields anymore because of the fear of multiple "man with a gun" calls to 911. The reason is people are not used to seeing that. I could UOC on my BICYCLE when i was a kid (late '70's 80's), the Sheriffs wouldnt pay us any mind- imagine teenagers doing that TODAY in CA...Frankly, I don't see a problem with getting the sheep used to seeing armed citizens again, that's all. This is not to say I plan on UOC'ing an EBR anytiime soon, I'm just sayiing I don't like the reactionary logic being used to support such 'restraint'.

Last edited by Falstaff; 09-02-2010 at 5:13 PM..
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  #34  
Old 09-02-2010, 5:14 PM
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Exclamation Lets Plan for it and be properly prepared

Bill I appreciate and share your concerns. I hate to say there is always that dumb a.. that just has to push it. You know he's out there, in full Mall nija uniform, just dying to carry his new mforgery to the local park. I can already see mothers snatching their kids off the swings, police, swat teams faning out and the news crews showing up. I am hopeful that the powers that be on this forum and others have thought out the best way to position and distance responsible gun owners from the showboat idiot... but if not, I hope that those smarter than me will do so, soon...
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  #35  
Old 09-02-2010, 5:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
We've also heard there were various threats by certain individuals in the larger UOC community to parade around with EBRs if 1934 had passed.
The option was entertained because AB1934 would leave no other reasonable alternative.

I personally prefer handgun open carry over long guns, as rifles present too many issues regarding muzzle discipline and security.
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Old 09-02-2010, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havoc70 View Post
I hope you don't mind, Bill, but I forwarded your message to my group. None of them were planning on open carrying any rifle, but I felt it an important message to share.

Note that I do not condone or encourage my members to open carry rifles, period.
Thank you for passing the message along.
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Old 09-02-2010, 5:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falstaff View Post
.
.
.
the argument you are all unconsciously making is; is that exercising our rights will cause us to lose them. I disagree.
Actually, that's not the argument that was made. Bill effectively told us that CGF has obtained some important allies who don't necessarily wish to be identified as such at this time - whose cooperation is contingent on damping down some of the publicity on UOC - and especially UOC of EBR's. Those allies are going to help us obtain at least incremental progress in our fight for our rights. So if we restrain certain behaviors we are likely to get important wins we will not otherwise achieve.

And I'm really tired about the garbage about how exercising your rights means that you lose them. It's a fallacious argument. Look, if you really believe that you must exercise your constitutional rights I expect you to LOC tomorrow everywhere you go. I firmly believe you have a constitutional right to do so - and that you'll be locked up for doing so.

I expect you to purchase a 30 round magazine in Nevada or a similar state and call in the news media to watch you import it into California - I firmly believe that the law that says that you can't do that is unconstitutional.

I expect you to stop paying that portion of your taxes which goes to unconstitutional expenditures. And, of course, I expect you to go to jail for doing so.

There are many of your rights which you do not exercise because you know very well that you will lose many of the freedoms you currently have. Therefore it is clear that everyone who believes that their constitutional rights must be exercised also believes that to do so with all their rights would mean a loss of constitutional rights - or they would LOC, not pay much of their taxes, and overtly import standard capacity magazines.

So let's get off that particular kick. We have to fight smart, we have to avoid doing the things that will get us hurt, and we have to fight unfairly. We also have to sacrifice - no war worthy of the name has been won without substantial personal sacrifice.

I also learned in the Army that in war, if you don't cheat - you're not trying.

(Not advocating breaking the law, just saying that in a war like this you have to be sneaky and nasty if you want to win.)
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  #38  
Old 09-02-2010, 6:09 PM
NightOwl NightOwl is offline
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Good post, Bwiese.

That's a sentiment I can support, presented in a way that's both reasonable and not hostile towards OC as a whole. Also goes straight to the heart of the issue at hand, without a broad "don't carry" message.

If the original stand-down had been more like this request, there likely would have been more people agreeing to comply.
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  #39  
Old 09-02-2010, 6:33 PM
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hoffmang hoffmang is offline
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Just to re-iterate. There are some possible "really good things" (TM) that could happen next session but if rifles get mixed into the UOC message it could specifically alienate the potential friend that would help every gun owner out.

Also, folks have been asking me for my opinion on UOC now that 1934 failed. I don't think CGF is going to defend, but I don't think that UOCers need stand down anymore. However I caution that it should be done as nonchalantly as possible. Making a scene just convinces the next Saldaña to run her bill again. I personally don't think UOC is all that valueable to the movement now but if you use your head I think you're not specifically hurting when limited to handguns.

Those of you who can LOC, feel free. That's no different than hunting.

-Gene
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  #40  
Old 09-02-2010, 6:49 PM
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CitaDeL CitaDeL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Just to re-iterate. There are some possible "really good things" (TM) that could happen next session but if rifles get mixed into the UOC message it could specifically alienate the potential friend that would help every gun owner out.

Also, folks have been asking me for my opinion on UOC now that 1934 failed. I don't think CGF is going to defend, but I don't think that UOCers need stand down anymore. However I caution that it should be done as nonchalantly as possible. Making a scene just convinces the next Saldaña to run her bill again. I personally don't think UOC is all that valueable to the movement now but if you use your head I think you're not specifically hurting when limited to handguns.

Those of you who can LOC, feel free. That's no different than hunting.

-Gene
I have been putting forth this advice for some time- that if you dont make open carry into an event, neither will anyone else. The only thing gained in the 'big splash' events is media coverage, and that isnt helpful unless you wish to deliver a well thought out message- not just to be seen on tv.

This ties into the open carry of long guns too- there is no way that carrying a rifle can be made 'low key' or discrete. With this, probability of one's intentions being misconstrued goes up astronomically.
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