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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:19 PM
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Default AB 1934 will lead to Loaded Open Carry (with a 12050 license)

AB-1934 passed moments ago.

Should the Governator sign the bill it will have a hilarious unintended consequence.

Because the bill removes the assertion that a firearm carried in a belt holster is unconcealed, the law will default back to the current California state court jurisprudence. In California courts, a partially concealed firearm is considered concealed.

As such, someone with a license under 12050 will be able to carry a handgun "partially concealed" loaded in a belt holster.

Thanks Saldaña!

And sadly, no UOC advocate was paying attention to that little issue...

-Gene
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:24 PM
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Good to hear because I am quite furious right now.
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:24 PM
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LOL! You da man.
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:24 PM
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Gene, are we assuming one has a CCW for this?
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:25 PM
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But will it get us Shall issue CCW?
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
AB-1934 passed moments ago.

Should the Governator sign the bill it will have a hilarious unintended consequence.

Because the bill removes the assertion that a firearm carried in a belt holster is unconcealed, the law will default back to the current California state court jurisprudence. In California courts, a partially concealed firearm is considered concealed.

As such, someone with a license under 12050 will be able to carry a handgun "partially concealed" loaded in a belt holster.

Thanks Saldaña!

And sadly, no UOC advocate was paying attention to that little issue...

-Gene
Where do you get the idea that a partially concealed is concealed? Even the CalCrim jury instructions says "substantially". . .
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:25 PM
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I love it! Now we just need shall issue.
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:25 PM
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bwaahahahahah
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:26 PM
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Not the best satisfaction for many, but at least I don't have to worry about the wind moving my shirt as much?
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  #10  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:26 PM
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I remember some reading between the lines on this in other posts
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:26 PM
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HAHAHA. PWNED!!!
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  #12  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:26 PM
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Sounds like some good news.
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  #13  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobler View Post
Gene, are we assuming one has a CCW for this?
A 12050 license is only colloquially referred to as a CCW. It's actually a carry license.

12050 licenses will be shall issue soon.

-Gene
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:27 PM
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I was hoping it would give us a "shall" issue before this goes into effect. Is that likely?
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
A 12050 license is only colloquially referred to as a CCW. It's actually a carry license.

12050 licenses will be shall issue soon.

-Gene
That is what I wanted to hear
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  #16  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theseus View Post
Where do you get the idea that a partially concealed is concealed? Even the CalCrim jury instructions says "substantially". . .
There are numerous cases in which partial concealment was found to be concealed.
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theseus View Post
Where do you get the idea that a partially concealed is concealed? Even the CalCrim jury instructions says "substantially". . .
I think it might be from state court jurisprudence finding that if you're trying to open carry a knife (that you aren't otherwise allowed to carry concealed) but a little bit of it happens to be obscured by your jacket, you can be found guilty of carrying the knife concealed. Or something to that effect. I haven't actually looked it up, just talking from memory.
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
A 12050 license is only colloquially referred to as a CCW. It's actually a carry license.

12050 licenses will be shall issue soon.

-Gene
What makes you so confident? And how soon is soon?
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  #19  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
A 12050 license is only colloquially referred to as a CCW. It's actually a carry license.

12050 licenses will be shall issue soon.

-Gene
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  #20  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
12050 licenses will be shall issue soon.
Not soon enough! And, I suspect Santa Clara County going shall issue may not be so "soon". Although I am confident the day will eventually come, my patience will continue to be tested!
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  #21  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
As such, someone with a license under 12050 will be able to carry a handgun "partially concealed" loaded in a belt holster.
-Gene
This part ^^^ is one reason why I am going to apply for CCW. If I am on a hike with the family and I am carrying my LAR Grizzly in .45 Win MAG I will not have to worry about my shirt partially concealing it and catching crap from a LEO or Ranger Rick/Game Warden for breaking any laws.
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:30 PM
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My explanation of the case law here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=325003

-Gene
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  #23  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thayne View Post
There are numerous cases in which partial concealment was found to be concealed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kf6tac View Post
I think it might be from state court jurisprudence finding that if you're trying to open carry a knife (that you aren't otherwise allowed to carry concealed) but a little bit of it happens to be obscured by your jacket, you can be found guilty of carrying the knife concealed. Or something to that effect. I haven't actually looked it up, just talking from memory.
Then I would love a cite, because CalCrim is not usually so incorrect in its guidance and includes changed due to case law. And as of 2009/2010 it was still saying "substantially" concealed.
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  #24  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:32 PM
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lolz that's great.

They just traded UOC for LOC.
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  #25  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:33 PM
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So you're saying that because of AB1934 and previous court decisions that the "Concealed Carry" weapon only has to be partially concealed? Like a little covered up in a belt holster?

And that we can have great hopes that California will be Shall Issue for CCW before .... after a while?

WOW! Just WOW!

This is a great forum.
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
A 12050 license is only colloquially referred to as a CCW. It's actually a carry license.

12050 licenses will be shall issue soon.

-Gene
YEESSS!!! Good thing I picked up a XD subcompact 2 days ago incase I get a CCW. Now the question is how soon is soon? Do you think it'll take months or years for shall issue?
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:34 PM
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Once again demonstrating the insanity of California Gun Law.
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:35 PM
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I'm guessing that we will NOT have "Shall Issue" CCW (per se), it will be "virtual shall issue" (VSI) where the Sheriff or CLEO will be issuing based on good cause defined as "Self Defense or Self Protection"...

My thoughts are that most of the counties that are red will go green before Alameda, San Francisco, Contra Costa, LA & maybe Orange. Those "hold out" counties will be the last to go VSI.

Am I right, Gene, or do I need to eat a sandwich & take a nap?

Erik.
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
A 12050 license is only colloquially referred to as a CCW. It's actually a carry license.

12050 licenses will be shall issue soon.

-Gene
I think I just teared up at this....
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post

12050 licenses will be shall issue soon.

-Gene
Let me guess? just another 2 weeks?
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  #31  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
AB-1934 passed moments ago.

Should the Governator sign the bill it will have a hilarious unintended consequence.

Because the bill removes the assertion that a firearm carried in a belt holster is unconcealed, the law will default back to the current California state court jurisprudence. In California courts, a partially concealed firearm is considered concealed.

As such, someone with a license under 12050 will be able to carry a handgun "partially concealed" loaded in a belt holster.

Thanks Saldaña!

And sadly, no UOC advocate was paying attention to that little issue...

-Gene
Someone with a license under 12050...So, someone who has already has a CCW? And those that don't, since Cali remains 'may issue'? I don't see what you're crowing about. I'm not a proponent of UOC, in fact I think carrying an unloaded gun is ludicrous, but once again, by circumvention and dirty manuevers more of our rights are taken away and again we get the "Oh, but this can turn out really good for us". I'm not a lawyer and you guys are a lot smarter about that stuff than I am but I don't get it. It just reminds me of Neil Young..." You're all just pissing in the wind, you don't know it but you are."
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:36 PM
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Wow. That is amazing.

I must admit, I thought the previously proclaimed "unintended consequences" of the Saldana bill might just be feigning on CGF part, as was done with the LCAV dinner.

You're keeping everyone on their toes!
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:36 PM
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Would this apply to a gun that "prints"? Sounds like it would.
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
My explanation of the case law here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=325003

-Gene
When you wrote that back in July I did not fully get the reasons for it, but your opening post in this thread just crystallized it for me.

Thank you Gene!
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:37 PM
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Theseus,

You are correct that I'm being imprecise when I say "partially concealed." A firearm in a holster is substantially concealed - otherwise they wouldn't have repealed it. By definition, striking "a holster is not concealed" means that the reverse has to now be true.

-Gene
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluNorthern View Post
And those that don't, since Cali remains 'may issue'?
Are you familiar with Sykes and what is happening in Sacramento County or the 6+ other cases around the nation?

-Gene
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  #37  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:39 PM
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I hope all the ccw guys carry their guns belt holstered and loaded. Im jealous that they can. BTW... WHy do all these politicians think that the ppl who legally carry firearms and follow gun laws are gonna be the ones who start violent crimes?
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:39 PM
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Well, I'm glad the CGF is on our side.
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  #39  
Old 08-31-2010, 9:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
My explanation of the case law here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=325003

-Gene
Sorry I missed it. .. but I disagree, but I will hold that discussion for that thread.
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Old 08-31-2010, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bertdigity View Post
I hope all the ccw guys carry their guns belt holstered and loaded. Im jealous that they can. BTW... WHy do all these politicians think that the ppl who legally carry firearms and follow gun laws are gonna be the ones who start violent crimes?
I never understood this either. They make the rules for owning a gun, with a 10 day waiting period and other restrictions to ensure the gun owner is a legitimate person. Then turn on the gun owner and make him to be the perp. Sad.
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