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  #1  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:35 AM
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Default New Marketplace Rules! Effective 7/9/2010

After considerable discussion and review, the rules of the Marketplace are being revised effective July 9, 2010. Use this thread for discussion and feedback of the new Marketplace rules.

Last edited by 69Mach1; 07-09-2010 at 10:49 AM..
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  #2  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:37 AM
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What are the new marketplace rules?

ETA: ah, here they are, thanks for the link.
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Last edited by nick; 07-02-2010 at 11:41 AM..
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  #3  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:45 AM
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I like them. The additions address some of the issues I've seen. Trouble is, most people don't read them before posting.
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)
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Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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  #4  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:46 AM
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Oh, and bump
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"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)
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Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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  #5  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredieusa View Post
Thank you for adding # 11 !!!

Now if only we can split the Private Firearm into Handguns and long guns..

I wanted to refer back to someone's add and it was three pages (using the default setting) over, in less than 24 hours!! It is crazy.
Good comment
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


WTB: Saiga .223 bolt; HK G3 bolt; Chinese AK pistol grips; milled AK cut receiver pieces and stubs.
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  #6  
Old 07-02-2010, 1:34 PM
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I like the proposed new rules. Although can we do something about all these "I'll take it" pending location/price/meeting place/pictures/reply crap? I figured that it's either you will take the item with consideration for all the seller's requirements or you don't. It's not to save your place in line cause it's a good deal.
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  #7  
Old 07-02-2010, 1:48 PM
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Pending is fine with me, assures buyer and seller agree, and half the sellers do not post exactly how the deal goes or a meeting place or are negotiable, leave the pending alone.
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  #8  
Old 07-02-2010, 2:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishoot View Post
I like the proposed new rules. Although can we do something about all these "I'll take it" pending location/price/meeting place/pictures/reply crap? I figured that it's either you will take the item with consideration for all the seller's requirements or you don't. It's not to save your place in line cause it's a good deal.
See the Proposed Rule #13, basically anything that's conditional/pending should be take up directly between the two parties. I can think of at least two reasons to do it this way: 1) keeps the thread cleaned up and 2) prevents frequent posts and discussion acting as btt's.

Quote:
13) Question and Inquiries about products listed in an ad. Most questions and product inquiries can be handled via Private Messages. We expect you to use this feature for all questions and inquiries. If you feel your question or inquiry involves a material aspect of the item being bought/sold you may post that in the thread. The term "material aspect" means one that dramatically affects the value, function, or operation of the item being bought/sold. Any information about the item that was not included initially in the original post, but asked about by another member, should be added to the original post. All offers other than 'I'll take it' must be made via Private Message and do not need verification such as "pm sent", "offer sent", "would you be willing to xxxx".
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  #9  
Old 07-02-2010, 2:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronk View Post
Pending is fine with me, assures buyer and seller agree, and half the sellers do not post exactly how the deal goes or a meeting place or are negotiable, leave the pending alone.
If unsure about any of the above, then send a pm to negotiate. "I'll take it" should mean exactly that. It's not "I might take it"....
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  #10  
Old 07-02-2010, 2:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlivingston View Post
See the Proposed Rule #13, basically anything that's conditional/pending should be take up directly between the two parties. I can think of at least two reasons to do it this way: 1) keeps the thread cleaned up and 2) prevents frequent posts and discussion acting as btt's.
Ahhh...thanks missed that. Need to work on my reading comprehension.
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  #11  
Old 07-02-2010, 2:29 PM
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Thanks for adding the clarifications. Too bad you can't force first time sellers to READ it!! vBulletin script?? (just kidding).

And thanks for cutting down the insane bumping... If nobody wants your stuff, bumping is NOT going to sell it...

Minor point
Shilling - I thought this was a guy asking his buddies to bump for him, and is pretty obvious. I don't do that - ever or ask anybody else to.

But sometimes, I'll see a guy I know and post good luck with sale, great seller. I will refrain in the future.

BUT - a guy saying 'buy with confidence' DOES have meaning - especially for a seller who is new and commenting poster has itrader and history.... Not a big deal.. But didn't know I was breaking the rules....

EDIT: See that they kick in 9-July-2010 so I'm not guilty (yet)!!!

.

Last edited by orangeusa; 07-02-2010 at 2:33 PM..
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  #12  
Old 07-02-2010, 2:30 PM
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In post #2, the quote is messed up. Other than that, good proposal!
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  #13  
Old 07-02-2010, 2:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N6ATF View Post
In post #2, the quote is messed up. Other than that, good proposal!
I'll look #2, I think you're right.
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  #14  
Old 07-02-2010, 2:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeusa View Post
Thanks for adding the clarifications. Too bad you can't force first time sellers to READ it!! vBulletin script?? (just kidding).
I wish! The number of members who don't read the rules is astonishing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeusa View Post
BUT - a guy saying 'buy with confidence' DOES have meaning - especially for a seller who is new and commenting poster has itrader and history.... Not a big deal.. But didn't know I was breaking the rules....
Today, that isn't breaking the rules. Under the proposed rules it probably would be. Comments like "buy with confidence" are most appropriately left in somebody's iTrader feedback.
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  #15  
Old 07-02-2010, 3:38 PM
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So does a unconditional "i'll take it" supersede any PM's between buyer and seller? I've seen many disgruntled buyers saying they stated that in the post while the seller goes with another buyer who pm'd them prior vs posting. Then arguments about who sent what and when starts to erupt.

The photobucket instructions are very good and appreciated. The only issue I see is many hosting sites have a bandwidth limit. CGN has many members as well as lookie loos that can easily view the thread so much that it maxes out the bandwidth. I myself have posted using the 'attachment' process of the forum because that has no viewing limit. It does however have a 5 item limit upload per post. Some buyers feel the need to see every possible angle in which 5 may not be enough especially if the seller is selling multiple items. Maybe you admins can increase the limit to at least 10 or 15 pics then just be sure the size limit to upload works.

Everything else looks fine to me.
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  #16  
Old 07-02-2010, 3:49 PM
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+1 for clarifying the "I'll take it" custom. Many issues are caused by negotiation VIA PM superseding a post on the thread or vice versa; I have been involved in a transaction where this was an issue as a matter of fact. either enforce the "I'll take it" rule as binding over all other forms of communication, or get rid of it entirely IMO.

Also, I don't know if it has been addressed in the past, but what is stopping the marketplace section from being divided by location? is it not feasible to have a sub-forum for each county, or at the very least every few counties?
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  #17  
Old 07-02-2010, 4:32 PM
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Couple comments:

1. I feel like it's getting to the point where you're trying to point out exactly the 9/10 things you can't post, whereas the rules should state something like, "The only two types of posts allowed are 'I'll take it' or something which affects value substantially." Even the value question posts are subjective.

2. I don't understand everyone's beef with the PM vs. I'll take it issue. As a seller, I feel like I should be able to select from the interested buyers the individual I see fit to buy what I'm selling. If that person offers me more money, but has less iTrader feedback, or the other person offers me less money, but has really fantastic iTrader feedback, I don't think it should matter. On the other hand, If there is an acceptance of offer from the seller, then he changes his mind, that's another story. I just feel the "I'll take it" and PM routes are one-sided, and until the seller responds, it should be at the seller's discretion.
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  #18  
Old 07-02-2010, 6:18 PM
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Hey CGN. Pbnation.com is utilizing a feature that allows the threads to not be "bumped" except every 24 hours (I imagine that time period is changeable) Instead of replying to the thread the OP clicks on the bump button to bump it to the top of the forum.

I don't know if it's a feature they had to pay mega $ for but an idea as it will eliminate the need for your mods to patrol for "illegal bumps"

http://www.pbnation.com/forumdisplay.php?f=141
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  #19  
Old 07-02-2010, 6:37 PM
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So If I am negotiating via PM mail with the Seller, before someone posts an "I will Take It" and the seller and I strike a deal after an "I will take It" is posted, who has the presumptive first right to buy?

.
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  #20  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:03 AM
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WOW. Somewhat complex set of rules - but I totally like them.

It is going to be tough not to cheer someone on who is a good seller, has great items or will work with the buyer or seller in a positive manner; i.e. rule 13 is a moral crusher. So, my feedback posts and PMs are the answer.

Regarding who gets to buy - in the end it is all a negotiation until the money is handed over. Or, is there a legal opinion that "I'll take it" is now a binding contract? I sure hope not, cause life events can alter many aspects of potential deals. All transaction discussions should be by PM and conversations - always best with Pm followed by phone and then in-person unless a mutual trust is reached.

My $0.02. Man, I like the idea that this could mean that the seller actually has the location in the post - I can dream - can't I? So why can't location be a must have data input in order to even sign-up as a poster in the web site?

Keep up the good work - thanks moderators. Happy 4th weekend.
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Last edited by CenterX; 07-03-2010 at 9:15 AM.. Reason: clarifying
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  #21  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:37 AM
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What happen to rule #17?..
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  #22  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:50 AM
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Minor edit suggestions, #16 reads:
Quote:
Positive feedback is appropriate for transaction with good communications between they parties involved and that completes in a timely manner
And should probably read as:

Quote:
Positive feedback is appropriate for a transaction with good communications between they parties involved and that completes in a timely manner. Neutral feedback is for everything else, including transactions which are not completed. Use the comment section to describe why you gave the rating you did.
My other nits are too tiny to pick so I'm not mentioning them. I do like the new/updated rules though.
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  #23  
Old 07-03-2010, 9:25 AM
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The title states proposed yet the balance of the post gives the distinct impression that these are the new posting boundaries and enforcement measures.

Are any of these proposals up for modification based on feedback or open discussion?
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  #24  
Old 07-03-2010, 9:45 AM
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In an ideal world "I'll take it" in the thread would be sufficient and binding, but the fact is for sale postings open up a de facto auction via pm or email, and sellers may have the item listed elsewhere, word of mouth, GB, gun club bulletin board. You can only be fast, follow up, and hope the seller is a stand up guy or gal.
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  #25  
Old 07-03-2010, 11:09 AM
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In re: to #3, put the location in the thread title. That way you are not combing ads only to find that they are 600 miles away.
In re: to #5, bumps after 48 hours would be sufficient as there are so any ads at any one time. For BTT violations, lock the thread for 72 hrs and make the violator contact a mod to unlock as AR15.com does. Though I hate to use them as an example
In re: to #11, FINALLY! There should be nothing posted except "I'll take it" or "PM sent."
In re: to #18,

And a minimum post count before one can post in the classifieds. If its a legitimate commercial business then no minimum should be required.
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Last edited by RobG; 07-03-2010 at 2:22 PM..
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  #26  
Old 07-03-2010, 11:54 AM
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Just my thought, but while you are negotiating a deal via PM and someone jumps in and says he'll take it as is, I think he gave full acceptance to the terms of the offer to the seller while you are still up in the air.

To put it simply:

I offer a gun for sale for $500 cash, meet at Dealer X, you pay all fees.

You PM and counteroffer with $400 cash, meet at Dealer Y, you pay all fees.

You have therefore killed my offer with your counteroffer, and now I have to counter your counter and so on and so on. No deal has been made.

We go back and forth a few times. Get pretty close to a deal.

Sam jumps in and says I take all the terms as is (I'll take it). No negotiations needed on my original deal which is still open to everyone else who did not counter.

Who fully accepted the terms and has a binding agreement?

I would say Sam as Sam clearly has struck a deal based on my original open offer and accepted them. I have not made any other deals in the meantime which would preclude me from accepting Sam's acceptance of my offer.

At that point, Sam has the deal. All other negotiations must cease as the item has been sold to Sam pending final transaction.

To put it more simply, you haggle with a dealer over a $20,000 car on the lot, this guy runs in and puts $20,000 on the car hood and says I'll take it, who is the dealer going to sell to?
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  #27  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:23 PM
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Considering the amount of first time posters that only join to sell something in the marketplace, I beg that a rule be included that requires either a minimum number of posts before being able to post in the marketplace section OR a grace period before being allowed to post. It seems that most of these first time posters break multiple rules then disappear. This activity seems to have increased lately too. These folks often post multiple threads for the same item, don't include required information, don't reply and don't update the thread when the item has been sold, traded or removed. I have even noticed where someone registers a second time under a new name and reposts items.

If the purpose of the rules to to "clean up" the marketplace, I cannot think of a more effective way to achieve it than this.

Last edited by Bill92869; 07-03-2010 at 12:27 PM.. Reason: Typos
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Old 07-03-2010, 12:33 PM
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I don't think they should have access to the marketplace period. I've had several new posters as supposed buyers that just try to jack you around any way they can.
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  #29  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:41 PM
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Just wondering did the mods feel there were problems with the marketplace that needed to be addressed. Or were they just tired of seeing people complaining.

I thought the marketplace was fine, as is. I didn't feel that commenting or asking questions in the thread were that big a deal. I like the noobs, they're the ones most likely to have a good deal.
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Old 07-03-2010, 12:48 PM
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So some guy posts I'll take it and the seller has to hold out for maybe 3 days to a week or more until they can meet up. If they agree then that is good and bette if they both stick to the agreement. Yet, I think the car sales reference will be more likely the result. I've missed several opportunities based on timing, and was I dazed? Maybe, but heck thats the way the cookie crumbles in life. Free enterprise has very few rules. Now congress is slamming more on us. So, it seems as though it is closer to home as well. I sure hope the restrictions do not come down to an e-bay or gb set of restraints. That will kill this site.

If a guy wants to deal from one end of the state to the other that is between the buyer and seller - period. I and several folks have gotten some cool deals this way on many sites other than this. Selling is free enterprise at work and all hopefully within personal cost constraints and applicable laws.

Keep it simple and keep it open. Remain tolerant. Not everyone is as perfect as you.
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  #31  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfried View Post
Just wondering did the mods feel there were problems with the marketplace that needed to be addressed. Or were they just tired of seeing people complaining.

I thought the marketplace was fine, as is. I didn't feel that commenting or asking questions in the thread were that big a deal. I like the noobs, they're the ones most likely to have a good deal.
They are also the most likely to troll potential "fake sales" to get everyone excited. Sadly enough, there are plenty of people like this on the internet. They are also the most likely to lowball you, or waste your time saying they'll buy and end up leaving you hanging. All the while another buyer could've stepped in.
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  #32  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:58 PM
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I'm just saying that people are complaining about what takes precedence over what. Legally speaking, the one that accepts the offer has the binding contract. The one that is still negotiating has not formed a binding agreement at all. It's that simple.

In any event, when you say "I'll take it", that is binding to all terms of the agreement. It's up to the buyer to follow through on all the terms. You don't say, "I'll take it" and then dick around with the terms wasting the seller's time until you can work a better deal because you excluded the others.

If the buyer says complete the sale within 1 week and you don't, then you didn't stick to the terms.

I know, it's very idealized and I wish everyone could stick to the rules perfectly but we can all hope, right?

As for newbs, I have no problems with them accessing the marketplace. You can't get people to read the rules, even the veterans, so what difference can it make to put a post or time limit on someone?

If someone is going to dick you around on the sales, they are going to do it regardless of their time or post limit here.
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  #33  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:58 PM
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Lots of people who do not see and read this thread are going to get themselves into trouble with these new rules.
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  #34  
Old 07-03-2010, 2:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
Just my thought, but while you are negotiating a deal via PM and someone jumps in and says he'll take it as is, I think he gave full acceptance to the terms of the offer to the seller while you are still up in the air.

To put it simply:

I offer a gun for sale for $500 cash, meet at Dealer X, you pay all fees.

You PM and counteroffer with $400 cash, meet at Dealer Y, you pay all fees.

You have therefore killed my offer with your counteroffer, and now I have to counter your counter and so on and so on. No deal has been made.

We go back and forth a few times. Get pretty close to a deal.

Sam jumps in and says I take all the terms as is (I'll take it). No negotiations needed on my original deal which is still open to everyone else who did not counter.

Who fully accepted the terms and has a binding agreement?

I would say Sam as Sam clearly has struck a deal based on my original open offer and accepted them. I have not made any other deals in the meantime which would preclude me from accepting Sam's acceptance of my offer.

At that point, Sam has the deal. All other negotiations must cease as the item has been sold to Sam pending final transaction.

To put it more simply, you haggle with a dealer over a $20,000 car on the lot, this guy runs in and puts $20,000 on the car hood and says I'll take it, who is the dealer going to sell to?
I would say that unless a deal has been struck and all details agreed to, then the item remains up for grabs. I have done this during a sale. A guy kept lowballing me via email and then another buyer popped in and offered to buy at full price so I sold it to the second buyer. The first was pissed stating we were "negotiating" and therefore the items should have been listed as "pending" or no longer for sale. I did not feel it was negotiating, more like him making stupidly low offers and me rejecting them and telling him xyz was the price, period. But, since no offer had been accepted, I felt the items were still available for purchase.
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  #35  
Old 07-03-2010, 3:30 PM
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I like the location in the title and the "no stupid comments rule"
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  #36  
Old 07-03-2010, 4:52 PM
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How about deleting all ads after 30 days -- gets rid of the old ads that are sold or forgotten -- my ha-penny
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  #37  
Old 07-03-2010, 5:10 PM
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30 days is a bit short. How about 120 or 190? Sometime it takes that long to get the right buyer. Rebuilding a sale thread every month would be a drag.

Also, a lot of folks use them as a historical reference of what has been out there and in some cases for how much.

I'm with Chickenfried on his question - What is wrong with it now?

To me, it has been working. It is klunky, newb's are amusing which brings a lot of humor at a time when all can use some. We were all there once.
Heck other areas on this site are so ridged you can feel the heart disease being generated over nothing.
It takes skill to go through 3 days of posts in less than 30 minutes just to find stuff that could be fun. The search engine is interesting.

I'm tired of the phrase "Change is Good" Is anyone else?
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  #38  
Old 07-03-2010, 7:42 PM
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Question vBulletin Script for Classifieds to embed price and/or location?

QUESTION:
On the bumping and shilling - is the intent to minimize number of posts? (i.e. server burden?)

SUGGESTION which might help $ and Location requirments:
Another website I frequent has a vBulletin form that is only invoked if you post a thread in classifieds (it's used to force WTS/WTB to be prefixed to thread title). You COULD implement a similiar thing to force seller to enter price and/or location and embed in the title.

The site I'm talking about is much smaller than CALGUNS, and don't know if this script would affect performance or reliability of CALGUNS site. Which is pretty awesome right now....

Mods - PM or email me if you think this is worth trying. I ran this by Lorax3 and he suggested I post the suggestion here. If it helps, I can link you folks up with the guy who did the vBulletin form - which would need to be modded somewhat for your needs.
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  #39  
Old 07-03-2010, 7:55 PM
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Original rule #5
Quote:
5) When posting within these forums - we ask that you keep all items to one thread per sub-forum only. Multiple threads opened for various items by one member may result in all threads by that member's posts being deleted. ...
Can we get unilateral enforcement of this instead of the picking and choosing when to enforce it? There are several vendors that have multiple threads bumped per week with zero repercussions.
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  #40  
Old 07-03-2010, 8:04 PM
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I suggested thirty days as posts frequently seem to go on forever without up dates or being closed out when sold -- Wading through thirty or forty posts to see if something is still available is pointless --
I can not see why reposting after thirty days should be a hardship, If the post has a 100 items listed it is likely few people read it anyway.
As for history, who cares what a MN-91 sold for last year?
But, all said, i can live with it as is -
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