[grammaton76]

One thing I'll point out is this: If you live in a single story house, and the kid's room is in the background... drop to the floor and shoot with an upwards trajectory. Probably gets the kid out of the line of fire.

I still disagree with the idea of max load slugs in urban areas, and I disagree with it speaking as a guy who owns a crap-ton of body armor and has done more than a bit of research on it.

First off - sure, soft armor will stop 00, but if he's not stopping after a couple hits, you hit his face next. What if he's wearing face armor?

Well, if the guy's wearing protection for his face, it's at best level a 2A comparable Lexan glass shield, and you're REALLY unlikely to encounter that outside of a SWAT entry scenario (and if you're holding a gun and SWAT's there for you, you screwed up big time - resisting the police is done in a court room, not your living room). Anyway, even in the case where a certifiable BG is wearing SWAT level gear, a hit with even low recoil 00 to a face shield will at minimum disorient, and repeated hits will either blind (scratching the face shield to the point of opacity) or penetrate. In the event of not penetrating, a blinded man is either going to tear off his visor so he can see (and then you blow his head off) or be unable to engage effectively as you pull back and chamber a slug to put him down.

Of course, the real answer to this is that it's all an armchair commando exercise reaching for that .001% scenario where BG's wearing body armor invade your house at night.

And if you REALLY have to go the full power slug route, why don't you just go for the gold and use a 308 or 30'06 rifle for home defense?

My HD loadout... primary weapon is a 12ga M590A1 with low-recoil buckshot and slugs attached. Downloaded one round in case I need to go slug from the get-go.
Secondary - MMG'ed AR-15 with USGI 30rd mag. Bullet buttons don't belong on HD weapons.
Tertiary - 308 semi-auto VEPR-II with 20rd mags, gripless.

Body armor readily accessible in primary occupancy rooms.

And chamber-empty, mag-loaded semi-auto handguns in most areas of the house in case it's necessary to fight one's way to the long guns.

[thomashoward]

[This really is not a reliable source of information. Does anyone have a cited case or real evidence proving the ineffectiveness of birdshot? ]

Yep, Helm's House of Guns, Santa Rosa Ca.about 5 years ago or so. Some tried to hold up the gun shop (go figure). A clerk was in the backroom and he came out and gave the guy a chest full of small shot. The BG propelled backwards and broke a display case, but lived to be tried for his crime. He is behind bars

[jonni]

Originally Posted by thomashoward

[This really is not a reliable source of information. Does anyone have a cited case or real evidence proving the ineffectiveness of birdshot? ]

Yep, Helm's House of Guns, Santa Rosa Ca.about 5 years ago or so. Some tried to hold up the gun shop (go figure). A clerk was in the backroom and he came out and gave the guy a chest full of small shot. The BG propelled backwards and broke a display case, but lived to be tried for his crime. He is behind bars

holding up a gunshop

wow

[QuarterBoreGunner]

holding up a gunshop

wow

Surprisingly enough, it does happen.

[eccvets]

Originally Posted by grammaton76

And if you REALLY have to go the full power slug route, why don't you just go for the gold and use a 308 or 30'06 rifle for home defense?

I'd say cost and a lot of people already have a 12guage and use it for other things as well as HD.

[eccvets]

Originally Posted by Rally Dave

I have a question....sorta on topic. Has anyone thought about "less than lethal" rounds in the shotty?? Example: rubber slugs, rubber buckshot, bean bags?

If you shoot someone with these types of rounds, do you have to be "in fear for your life"? or can you use these rounds more liberally than you would a normal round? IE: Shooting a guy in the back as he is running away or shooting a guy who is breaking into your car, but is not a direct threat to you?

Good lord that is a terrible option, if your gonna shoot someone you had better need/want to down them for good. Why take the chance that he may or may not go down and that he might have a gun on him for his protection agaisnt people using rubber bullets?

[eccvets]

Originally Posted by ponderosa

RE: Birdshot



seriously, anything w/ enough energy to kill your attacker has the potential to go through walls... you could always fill your walls with sand I guess... especially if you live near eccvets...

a few layers of phone books would probally do the job as well if I were using buckshot but I'm not

[tombinghamthegreat]

Originally Posted by Rally Dave

Has anyone thought about "less than lethal" rounds in the shotty??

wow a choice worse that bird shot

[neomentat]

I use #4 magnum buck shot

[scr83jp]

All one needs is a full choke 12 guage shotgun firing 1 1/8oz of 5's or 6's at close range it will incapacitate or shred a human abdomen and not tear up the residence or injure others.I read police reports while doing presentence & probation reports for courts in NYS & CA for 38 years.Most perps used 12g,16g or 20g hunting loads depends what they were able to steal.

[secretasianman]

Originally Posted by thomashoward

Yep, Helm's House of Guns, Santa Rosa Ca.about 5 years ago or so. Some tried to hold up the gun shop (go figure). A clerk was in the backroom and he came out and gave the guy a chest full of small shot. The BG propelled backwards and broke a display case, but lived to be tried for his crime. He is behind bars

I remember that shooting when I lived in Santa Rosa. Didn't hear if the guy survived or not. Helms House of Guns is a pretty small store so if the perp survived it further solidifies my decision not to use birdshot.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

So much anecdotal evidence in this thread.

[eccvets]

Originally Posted by scr83jp

All one needs is a full choke 12 guage shotgun firing 1 1/8oz of 5's or 6's at close range it will incapacitate or shred a human abdomen and not tear up the residence or injure others.

and your evidence comes from??? what again???

oh yeah, your making stuff up; I nearly forgot!

[HondaMasterTech]

Cool. If overpenetration is a worry of yours, don't own a gun. When they say don't point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot, they mean anything in your house AND a mile or more down your street.

[HUTCH 7.62]

Thats what she said

[M. Sage]

Originally Posted by bdsmchs

Here's the thing, at really close ranges birdshot will hit like a fluid slug, and kill the bad guy really dead.

Originally Posted by scr83jp

All one needs is a full choke 12 guage shotgun firing 1 1/8oz of 5's or 6's at close range it will incapacitate or shred a human abdomen and not tear up the residence or injure others.I read police reports while doing presentence & probation reports for courts in NYS & CA for 38 years.Most perps used 12g,16g or 20g hunting loads depends what they were able to steal.

No no no no no. A mass of pellets, even tightly-packed, will not act even similarly to a slug. It will act like a tight cloud of small, light projectiles.

#8 shot works passably well as a breaching round for this reason. It'll bust a lock, won't go through the door with enough energy to really do any damage, and splash back isn't likely to wound anybody on the outside, either. Using 00B for a breaching round is a great way to get hurt, though.

Guys, I've seen what bird shot does at close range and let me tell you it does dick. I used to hunt rabbits and have given a couple coup de grace shots at close range because sometimes you only wind up with a hindquarters hit that only incapacitates and wounds. #4-#6 birdshot at under three feet will not completely penetrate a rabbit's head. He'll be missing about half his noggin, but it will not go through that little head.

I agree with QBG on #4B as a compromise size. It worked passably well on Michigan white tail deer; similarly sized to people and possibly a bit tougher.

To answer the original question about why people prefer 00B for home defense: because it works.

[LE132_00]

Originally Posted by M. Sage

To answer the original question about why people prefer 00B for home defense: because it works.

This is the simplest and best answer to the OP's question.

[skip]

can someone school me on these Remington "Sport Loads" ?

http://www.remington.com/products/am...land/sport.asp

[pigiron]

Originally Posted by skip

can someone school me on these Remington "Sport Loads" ?

http://www.remington.com/products/am...land/sport.asp

Birdshot.

[opos]

2 of #4 buckshot first..then the rest OO buck....had a buddy LEO advise that was a really decent alternative to slugs and/or to all OO buck .... live in a small old house with thin walls and a neighbor close by. Figured the added "spread" on the #4 Buckshot was enough for a bit of distance and help to avoid possible penetration through the walls..and the OO buck was for closer use and absolute knock down power...I shoot this at the range to keep "sharp"...I wonder how many 12 guage Mossbergs and Mavericks are sitting in closets or under beds with OO buck loaded and have never been fired, cleaned or gotten used to? Bet there are a ton of them...

[AJD]

This is still one of the best references on shotgun ammo for home defense use and is a very good read for those trying to choose a load:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Here is a section regarding birdshot:

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

[Konnekery]

According to the book the Tactical Shotgun, written by an extremely popular author with a police background, 00 is overkill at the distances the typical in-home combat occurs and the penetration could be an issue if people are behind walls, in other rooms, etc. Out to 15-20 ft., 7-8 shot is fine according to this author, after that you need something more. Also, being hit by 7-8 shot a close range would be a different experience than out 30 yards. If you look at the statistics on in-home defense situations, it is unusual for a gunfight in a home to go beyond 1 shot 85% of the time with a shotgun and 93% are ended with two. That's a lot better than a hangun for most people under high stress that don't shoot frequently.

[pigiron]

All things considered, if buckshot was so problematic for home defense, then there should be significant examples of "innocents" being injured.

[sofine354]

I would use slugs for home defense.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

^I would not want to live next to you. Or across the street from you.

[M. Sage]

Originally Posted by Konnekery

According to the book the Tactical Shotgun, written by an extremely popular author with a police background, 00 is overkill at the distances the typical in-home combat occurs and the penetration could be an issue if people are behind walls, in other rooms, etc. Out to 15-20 ft., 7-8 shot is fine according to this author, after that you need something more. Also, being hit by 7-8 shot a close range would be a different experience than out 30 yards. If you look at the statistics on in-home defense situations, it is unusual for a gunfight in a home to go beyond 1 shot 85% of the time with a shotgun and 93% are ended with two. That's a lot better than a hangun for most people under high stress that don't shoot frequently.

Trust me, I've shot live animals with birdshot at home-defense ranges. #4-6 won't go through a rabbit at close range. I've head-shot rabbits (and seen others do the same) at 3 - 5 feet from the muzzle, and this is with a longer-barreled hunting shotgun so there's more velocity. The result? Less than total penetration of a rabbit's head. It looks like something bit part of the rabbit's head off - the side you shot.

This guy is going off "it should work" rather than looking to empirical data.

Light, fast hollow points used to be the "conventional wisdom" until the FBI found out that it was all wrong... You need 12" penetration in ballistic gelatin, and birdshot comes way short.

[supersonic]

Originally Posted by bdsmchs

.The most desirable outcome is a safe home and family and a dead bad guy.

Maybe where you come from (Earth?), but I'm more of the mind that the most desirable outcome is when you & yours are safe & bad guy is in custody. Why you would prefer dealing with a homicide (and ALL that comes with it) is beyond me.

[M. Sage]

Originally Posted by supersonic

Maybe where you come from (Earth?), but I'm more of the mind that the most desirable outcome is when you & yours are safe & bad guy is in custody. Why you would prefer dealing with a homicide (and ALL that comes with it) is beyond me.

So he won't come back later, and can't sue you for saying mean things to him.

[eccvets]

Originally Posted by M. Sage

So he won't come back later, and can't sue you for saying mean things to him.

+1 although I think the badguy will come back to kill you when he gets out of jail.

[Hayashi Killian]

To be honest, if you shot him once before, he knows you're armed and is likely to stay the hell away from you.

[eccvets]

I'd see it as a challenge and I love challenges!!! At the very worst I get peppered with birdshot again ha!

[M. Sage]

Originally Posted by Hayashi Killian

To be honest, if you shot him once before, he knows you're armed and is likely to stay the hell away from you.

Worst case: he knows you're armed and comes back weeks/months later to steal your guns or lie in wait for you. Maybe with his friends.

No thanks. Dead men don't carry grudges, nor do they try to sue you.

[coop44]

if they live through it, 00 is easily removable and the damage is repairable. #4 shot at close range will turn flesh into hamburger and require removal of lotsa damaged meat.

I keep #4 loaded.

[eccvets]

Originally Posted by M. Sage

Worst case: he knows you're armed and comes back weeks/months later to steal your guns or lie in wait for you. Maybe with his friends.

No thanks. Dead men don't carry grudges, nor do they try to sue you.

amen!

[NSR500]

Robber shot during home invasion
By BETH SHAYNE
WCNC
Posted: Saturday, Oct. 31, 2009

ROWAN COUNTY, N.C. -- When a team of robbers returned to a Rowan County home police say they'd robbed up earlier in the week, the homeowners were ready Friday.

One suspect is in the hospital after being shot by the couple's son. Two other people are in custody.

It happened on Corriher Grange Road near Highway 152.

The house was first held up Monday night. NewsChannel 36 spoke exclusively with the Deadmon family after the first home invasion. They told us how the robbers forced them to open the safe at gunpoint. They reported the robbery to police, and they believe that's why the suspects returned.

"He told my husband they had come back to kill," Sherry Deadmon said, speaking for her husband Randy, who has a disability that affects his speech.

It was Randy and his son John-Ross who were home Friday afternoon when two men arrived.

Randy explained how one of the robbers grabbed his son by the collar and lead him into the house. He said both men had guns.

There was a scuffle -- pushing, punching, and then shooting. The family had placed several shotguns around the house because of Monday's crime.

When police arrived at the home, they found one man shot in the garage. He was wearing black clothing, a black mask and a bulletproof vest.

John-Ross Deadmon told investigators he believed he had shot that man. He said a second man had run from the scene, while exchanging gunfire with him.

Police believe they arrested that second man in Kannapolis a short time later. They also arrested a woman, who was found in the vehicle investigators connected to the crime scene.

The wounded man was airlifted to Carolinas Medical Center where he is recovering. Names will be released after charges are filed against all three suspects.

The Deadmon's son, John-Ross, was taken to the hospital with some bruises and scrapes from the fighting. His pastor tells NewsChannel 36 he was shaken, but home Friday night, along with his parents, who are unharmed.

"Thank God we're saved," Sherry Deadmon said. "I forgive them, but they need Jesus."

The reason why I use 00 and not bird shot. Sure, it may be 1 in a Million you'd get home invaded, and even smaller that the bad guy would be wearing a vest, but why chance it?