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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials
$0 I don't want them at any price 380 15.35%
$100 308 12.44%
$500 730 29.48%
$1000 511 20.64%
$1500 102 4.12%
$2000 205 8.28%
$5000 127 5.13%
$10000 50 2.02%
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage 63 2.54%
Voters: 2476. You may not vote on this poll

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  #121  
Old 11-09-2009, 1:32 PM
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There is one...it's called 2A and its free. (Not available in stores, available June 2010).

And the state of the Union being what it is, you go to jail for exercising it.
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  #122  
Old 11-09-2009, 2:20 PM
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Guys we might be getting just a tiny bit off topic

This will either prove out or not....

I would like to know if any one has changed their opinion from what they initially voted... It would also be good to know of those who have voted who are already vested with Leo credentials
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  #123  
Old 11-09-2009, 2:43 PM
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it would prob be worth 500, but 1000 i just could not do.
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  #124  
Old 11-09-2009, 4:34 PM
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It'll be worth a lot more than what I think it's worth now, IF 2A is NOT incorporated to the States in Chicago v McDonald.
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  #125  
Old 11-09-2009, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bizcuits View Post
Earned?

Most departments and agencies hire family or friends of current Officers. Head back east, and you'll find it's a lot more of a Family business, then a depiction of the actual community being served.
Never said that made it OK.

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...umm, no...just ask FORMER OC Sherrif Mike Carona...
And we want to follow in his footsteps why again? To give us 2nd Amendment rights by pretending to be cops?
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  #126  
Old 11-09-2009, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Oh, okay then. LE and the military don't need training, just mere designation of ranks and titles

Never said that made it OK.

And we want to follow in his footsteps why again? To give us 2nd Amendment rights by pretending to be cops?
Legally no, LE and military do not need training.... designations of a special class of citizenry with special priviliges is typically not dependent upon training... thats just the line they feed you.

Kind of like how the 'supremem commander of the armed forces' doesn't require any training/military background what so ever...

Kind of like how the LA police chief wasn't post certified for a very very long time...

I don't care if I have to 'pretend' an albino Eskimo with a speech impediment to get my damn 2A rights back... if wearing mucklucks and lisping while wearing makeup gets me the ability to protect my family then I'll be a muckluck wearing, ssss slurring fool in white face.

this is not about 'playing cop' this is about getting 2A rights back,.

if you've got a better idea of how me and my family will get the legal ability to carry a pistol for personal protection while living in NYC (in a time frame which keeps us alive... remember justice delayed is justice denied)... lets have it....

If not... well... I can tell you I'm going to get mine... others are welcome to join me once the details get sorted.
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  #127  
Old 11-09-2009, 5:19 PM
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I was thinking about this. Even with the easy availability of CHL here in Texas, there are many places you can't carry - "51%" establishments (that percent of gross receipts is from sale of on-premise alcohol), schools, hospitals (WTF!?)... unless you're a LEO.

I'm not sure if it's all LEO or if I'd have to qualify as a Texas Peace Officer. But if it would get rid of those restrictions (and others), I'd be happy to save up $300-$500 to do it.
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  #128  
Old 11-09-2009, 5:26 PM
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This is the wrong way to go. Want a badge? Join the force.
Um technically that is what is being talked about here, just not their local force
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  #129  
Old 11-09-2009, 5:37 PM
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How do you plan to vet 10,000 persons that pony up $1,000.00, even established departments that vet officers get bad seeds, how do you plan to address the liability issues and what chain of command will be in place to monitor the activities of these 10,000 person spread out across many States.

It seems the legal liability and inability to monitor the conduct of 10,000 individuals would doom any plan of this scale.
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  #130  
Old 11-09-2009, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
How do you plan to vet 10,000 persons that pony up $1,000.00, even established departments that vet officers get bad seeds, how do you plan to address the liability issues and what chain of command will be in place to monitor the activities of these 10,000 person spread out across many States.

It seems the legal liability and inability to monitor the conduct of 10,000 individuals would doom any plan of this scale.
Hire as contractors for a short period such as 32 days. The contract stipulates that the 1st month is a probationary period where the contractor can't engage in any LE activities.

At about the 2 week point, the city places the new contractor on unpaid administrative leave of absence andas such he/she has no arrest or other LE authority. The original 32 day contract contains a clause whereby the contract is automatically extended even when on unpaid administrative leave of absence. The leave can only be ended upon signed approval of the city officials.

Departments separate themselves from employees all the time using the unpaid administrative leave of absence. It doesn't mean that the employee gives up their badge and gun necessarily. Correct me if I am wrong, but are cities liable for what officers do while on unpaid administrative leave of absence?

As long as the original contract is worded correctly, I see no particular legal liability on the city's part; but then again I am no lawyer.
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  #131  
Old 11-09-2009, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
I wouldn't want to be a LEO
This thread is not about "being an LEO". It's about acquiring a piece of paper that will stop the state from infringing upon our rights.

If this idea comes to pass, and I can be a Special Constable for East Tree Stump County... how likely am I to try enforcing the law, there or anywhere? Answer: not at all.

I don't want a badge, or power, or the headache. I just want to exercise my rights in peace and without fear of prosecution.
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  #132  
Old 11-09-2009, 6:52 PM
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This thread is not about "being an LEO". It's about acquiring a piece of paper that will stop the state from infringing upon our rights.
+1 Agreed
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  #133  
Old 11-09-2009, 7:47 PM
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Interesting out of the box thinking but this has to stay legal!

Last edited by Dont Tread on Me; 11-24-2009 at 8:48 PM..
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  #134  
Old 11-09-2009, 8:58 PM
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  #135  
Old 11-09-2009, 9:06 PM
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Ok, who wants to be a law officer from Sunrise Wyoming?

http://www.sunriseminewyoming.com/

And this in Nevada from 2006: "For $70,000, I'll turn over the keys to Coaldale. The town needs fixing up, I admit, but it's got a great future," says Ylst. He can be reached at (775) 482-7750." from http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/...NEWS/102200042

Seems like there are towns that come available. We just need to figure out which state(s) to target.
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  #136  
Old 11-09-2009, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jnojr View Post
This thread is not about "being an LEO". It's about acquiring a piece of paper that will stop the state from infringing upon our rights.

If this idea comes to pass, and I can be a Special Constable for East Tree Stump County... how likely am I to try enforcing the law, there or anywhere? Answer: not at all.

I don't want a badge, or power, or the headache. I just want to exercise my rights in peace and without fear of prosecution.
You just made my wall of fame. Nicely Put.
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  #137  
Old 11-09-2009, 9:40 PM
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Those are to be earned, not bought.
The badge is NOT earned. It's not an award, or medal of valor. You pay for it by attending a class and gaining employment...
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  #138  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:24 PM
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I don't care if I have to 'pretend' an albino Eskimo with a speech impediment to get my damn 2A rights back... if wearing mucklucks and lisping while wearing makeup gets me the ability to protect my family then I'll be a muckluck wearing, ssss slurring fool in white face.


Now, dats funny right there I don't care who you are....

I would be interested, $500 sounds like a good figure!
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  #139  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:56 PM
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You have got to be very naive not to realize that this scheme would be very quickly defeated.

You are trying to use a provision in existing laws. As soon as legislators or the media get wind of this little project and the first badges or IDs are issued, you can bet that it won't take long for legislation to be drafted to make sure that those LEOs on "administrative leave" (or whatever statute you give them) don't get to carry in CA.

Instead of spending hundreds or thousands towards that project (which I doubt will ever see the light of day), why don't you donate just 50% of that money to the CGF or other organizations that defend and represent our rights in the state?
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  #140  
Old 11-09-2009, 11:51 PM
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You can spin it any way you want, but being a cop or a soldier does require special training. There are recruiting standards one must meet to get hired or selected, and, once you have the training, standard you must withhold, or you get fired or discharged.
That is why there are NO fat lazy out of shape cops ?????

Yea right sure.

And all leo's are marksmen shooters


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  #141  
Old 11-10-2009, 2:41 AM
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Im in for 1K
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  #142  
Old 11-10-2009, 2:54 AM
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As of this time, 70 percent of us would do it if it was 500 dollars, but something tells me if it was 1000 dollars, people would bite.

If this is something that is in fact possible, it is something that we would have to make sure that we make reasonable efforts to make sure that those of us getting badges are in fact responsible.

Nothing is 100 percent, what we want to avoid are people getting permits who then go around like they are royality. That type of behavior is what burns sheriffs.

Nicki
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  #143  
Old 11-10-2009, 5:54 AM
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Interesting concept. I'd go in for some bucks. I do know that there are a number of agencies that just relaxed their standards for reserve sworn officers, maybe for this reason.
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  #144  
Old 11-10-2009, 5:57 AM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
You have got to be very naive not to realize that this scheme would be very quickly defeated.

You are trying to use a provision in existing laws. As soon as legislators or the media get wind of this little project and the first badges or IDs are issued, you can bet that it won't take long for legislation to be drafted to make sure that those LEOs on "administrative leave" (or whatever statute you give them) don't get to carry in CA.

Instead of spending hundreds or thousands towards that project (which I doubt will ever see the light of day), why don't you donate just 50% of that money to the CGF or other organizations that defend and represent our rights in the state?
After reading the thread, I think that a1c is correct. As all loopholes, this one will be closed with speed proportional to the number of people who take advantage of it.
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  #145  
Old 11-10-2009, 8:10 AM
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After reading the thread, I think that a1c is correct. As all loopholes, this one will be closed with speed proportional to the number of people who take advantage of it.
Just like the OLL "loophole"
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  #146  
Old 11-10-2009, 9:27 AM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
You have got to be very naive not to realize that this scheme would be very quickly defeated.

You are trying to use a provision in existing laws. As soon as legislators or the media get wind of this little project and the first badges or IDs are issued, you can bet that it won't take long for legislation to be drafted to make sure that those LEOs on "administrative leave" (or whatever statute you give them) don't get to carry in CA.

Instead of spending hundreds or thousands towards that project (which I doubt will ever see the light of day), why don't you donate just 50% of that money to the CGF or other organizations that defend and represent our rights in the state?
You mean like the OLL movement was?
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  #147  
Old 11-10-2009, 9:43 AM
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Interesting concept. I'd go in for some bucks. I do know that there are a number of agencies that just relaxed their standards for reserve sworn officers, maybe for this reason.
Really? Which Agencies?
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  #148  
Old 11-10-2009, 9:55 AM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
You are trying to use a provision in existing laws. As soon as legislators or the media get wind of this little project and the first badges or IDs are issued, you can bet that it won't take long for legislation to be drafted to make sure that those LEOs on "administrative leave" (or whatever statute you give them) don't get to carry in CA.
The House and Senate would need to agree on a bill restricting LEO carry rights. Difficult to do an about face and take guns away from cops. Tough for the blue dog types to explain. Requiring residency in the state where one is a LEO won't work. The clowns in Sac. would be helpless.
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  #149  
Old 11-10-2009, 10:01 AM
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I was thinking about this. Even with the easy availability of CHL here in Texas, there are many places you can't carry - "51%" establishments (that percent of gross receipts is from sale of on-premise alcohol), schools, hospitals (WTF!?)... unless you're a LEO.

I'm not sure if it's all LEO or if I'd have to qualify as a Texas Peace Officer. But if it would get rid of those restrictions (and others), I'd be happy to save up $300-$500 to do it.
It's interesting to me the different amounts that people have posted. Some think $300 - $500 would be worth saving up to secure an actual LE credential, affording them a National CCW. Others would pay much more.

I spent $600 for a regular, highly restricted, single-weapon, two year CCW...and was denied. As a resident of the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, I hoped against hope...but completely expected the decision. I decided to make the sacrifice as part of my ongoing battle for 2A.

If there was a LEGAL, solid, honest, LASTING way to secure a National CCW...I would pay far more than $600.00. Sadly this is just a fantasy unless / or until SHALL ISSUE is achieved. Even then, it would not be nationally recognized.
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  #150  
Old 11-10-2009, 10:38 AM
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I absolutely hate people who tell you what cannot be done, they slow down the people who are actually getting things done, generally. I come from entrepreneurship as a career and everyone always wants to tell you why your idea is stupid/crazy/whatever. Oh and then when it works (and you make a lot of money) they tell you how they were actually helping. Forget all the people who tell you how it cannot be done and let's do it. Nay sayers are generally people clinging to some small sliver of thought that they are in fact special and important well beyond the general population.

I do think many of you are not thinking the economics of this entirely through ... you have states such as Illinois (of which I am a co-resident) that has NO CCW permitting. So beyond our little sliver of CA there are far more restrictive states not to mention the problems found in other states previously mentioned like TX. We are talking about a NATIONALLY recognized permit, that makes even the best CCW look like a child's toy. I think there is a TON more money here than any one has calculated.

I would want some guarantees beyond that of the mayor's office though. A lawyer would need to work this out and I am betting there would be enough money to "adopt" a number of towns nationwide. If this could be buttoned up tight by a decent legal team, this would be fun times even if it didn't stand very long.

I know they are considered looney but has anyone looked into asking the Oath Keepers about this? Many of them as I recall are law enforcement and probably would help in pointing us in a helpful direction.

I cannot wait to see if this has legs beyond a discussion on this board, its a wonderful idea on so many levels.

Oh and for those of you rambling on about Mike Carona ... #1 he was not found guilty on any charge involving CCW's, a man is innocent until proven guilty and he was clearly not proven guilty on any of those related charges, he was proven guilty on a charge in no way related to CCW's. #2 he was a sheriff, people here are talking about going a level or two above that station to the actual creators of the local laws not the enforcers of them, huge difference #3 these would be legally sanctioned LEO's not under the table dealings, it would be created under colour of law and would be done openly, that is the beauty of the plan.
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  #151  
Old 11-10-2009, 10:45 AM
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$500 I would be a shoe in. $1000 would be doable.
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  #152  
Old 11-10-2009, 10:45 AM
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I have a feeling that some of the backlash against the idea is coming from people with something to lose if they were to "fix" HR218 should this idea be workable.

That being said, I dont think they could do a whole lot to HR218 without losing backing from C's.O.P., police unions, etc. Any ensuing fight 'might' force the police organizations to fight alongside us gunnies rather than fight against us for once.
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  #153  
Old 11-10-2009, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Dick Thomas View Post
As I recall from my reading of HR218, to be CCW qualified nation-wide as a retired LEO requires one to have served on active duty for a minimun of 15 years, anything less will not qualify under HR 218. Also, this is a really stupid idea, and as a 35 plus year local LEO retiree, I resent the idea of people "gaming" the system just to be able to carry a gun concealed.

I resent the fact, that we the people are forced to have to think about how to "game" the system to be able to exercise a right granted to all of us by our constitution.

Last time I checked it didn't read you have the right to keep and bare arms, but if you want to carry that arm concealed you have to obtain a permit to do it.

What we need to do, is get all of the unconstitutional laws repealed, staring with the crappy NFA laws!!
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  #154  
Old 11-10-2009, 11:32 AM
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Really? Which Agencies?
Out of state.
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  #155  
Old 11-10-2009, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by The Banana View Post
... I think there is a TON more money here than any one has calculated.

I would want some guarantees beyond that of the mayor's office though. A lawyer would need to work this out and I am betting there would be enough money to "adopt" a number of towns nationwide. If this could be buttoned up tight by a decent legal team, this would be fun times even if it didn't stand very long.
...
I really think that buying our own town that is already abandonded (but previously established) gives us the level of control we need. This would afford the opportunity to word the city's ordanances the way they need to be. You are correct that the legaleez makes/breaks this whole deal.

595 people @ $1000 each buys http://www.alberttexas.com/home/
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  #156  
Old 11-10-2009, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dansgold View Post
I'd like to know how ANY law enforcement officer can justify enforcing ANY of the various blatantly unconstitutional laws on the books.
The justification is to continue receiving paychecks. It is that simple for the most part, with some nuances here and there.
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  #157  
Old 11-10-2009, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kermit315 View Post
I have a feeling that some of the backlash against the idea is coming from people with something to lose if they were to "fix" HR218 should this idea be workable.

That being said, I dont think they could do a whole lot to HR218 without losing backing from C's.O.P., police unions, etc. Any ensuing fight 'might' force the police organizations to fight alongside us gunnies rather than fight against us for once.
You know they might just push through a national CCW law to get rid of this. That would be OK too, if a CCW from anywhere was OK everywhere.
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  #158  
Old 11-10-2009, 4:09 PM
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See! Tons of towns for sale! Then total responsibility lies with the commission running it for us.

Oh and guys don't just think about CCW...
No high cap magazine laws
DEPARTMENT ISSUED AW PERMITS???? maybe?
NO ROSTER!
So many more advantages. Hell, as it turns out we might all be eligible for federal benefits for LEOs and a retirement plan sponsored by the town we create through the funding for the town! There is always going to be a list of people who want to be a cop in "our town" and not many expenses since the town is two blocks and a "police department"
Gotta pay someone to man the phones and fax machine there though...
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  #159  
Old 11-10-2009, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Sgt Raven View Post
You know they might just push through a national CCW law to get rid of this. That would be OK too, if a CCW from anywhere was OK everywhere.
Agreed.
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Over reaction to non-crimes by State loyalists. If they keep up their heavy handed crap, soon it'll be a better gamble to shoot at cops before they even start bothering you considering the amount of time they're willing to put you in prison for if you cooperate.

Seems like that pendulum is about to shift.
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  #160  
Old 11-10-2009, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by USAFTS View Post
It's interesting to me the different amounts that people have posted. Some think $300 - $500 would be worth saving up to secure an actual LE credential, affording them a National CCW. Others would pay much more.

I spent $600 for a regular, highly restricted, single-weapon, two year CCW...and was denied. As a resident of the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, I hoped against hope...but completely expected the decision. I decided to make the sacrifice as part of my ongoing battle for 2A.

If there was a LEGAL, solid, honest, LASTING way to secure a National CCW...I would pay far more than $600.00. Sadly this is just a fantasy unless / or until SHALL ISSUE is achieved. Even then, it would not be nationally recognized.
That's the thing: value is relative, often to where your butt is parked. I'm sitting in a state where I can get a CCW by taking a joke of a "class" and then sending in the right paperwork. That CCW is honored by the majority of States, and honored by every state I can imagine visiting in the forseeable future. Heck, the reason I don't have a CCW yet is partly because I hardly need one - I can carry without a license while traveling and while in my own vehicle (traveling or just going to the gas station) and carry of long guns isn't restricted like it is with handguns...

So no, you won't catch me paying as much as someone living in NY or CA would be willing to. It would be nice for me to get it, but I wouldn't break the bank getting it done since the cost/benefit would skew too far to the "cost" side.
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