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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials
$0 I don't want them at any price 380 15.34%
$100 308 12.43%
$500 730 29.47%
$1000 512 20.67%
$1500 102 4.12%
$2000 205 8.28%
$5000 127 5.13%
$10000 50 2.02%
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage 63 2.54%
Voters: 2477. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 11-08-2009, 2:23 PM
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Did not the jerk that crashed the Ferrari Enzo in Malibu have a phony public transportation company that allowed it to have transit police under California law, get caught in a world of hurt. Is this what you are talking about?

http://www.wreckedexotics.com/special/enzo/
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  #42  
Old 11-08-2009, 2:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
Did not the jerk that crashed the Ferrari Enzo in Malibu have a phony public transportation company that allowed it to have transit police under California law, get caught in a world of hurt. Is this what you are talking about?

http://www.wreckedexotics.com/special/enzo/
Exactly what came to my mind when I saw that thread.
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  #43  
Old 11-08-2009, 2:37 PM
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But his was phony, and not even his. He was just one of the members. What's being proposed here is apparently a qualified LEO program from another, more friendly state.
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  #44  
Old 11-08-2009, 2:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bigcalidave View Post
But his was phony, and not even his. He was just one of the members. What's being proposed here is apparently a qualified LEO program from another, more friendly state.
This is the wrong way to go. Want a badge? Join the force.
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  #45  
Old 11-08-2009, 2:48 PM
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That's your opinion. I wouldn't want to be forced to uphold the BS laws here in california.
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  #46  
Old 11-08-2009, 2:51 PM
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I put 5k as long as I can legally carry anywhere I go and that would be a one time shot. I would not pay 5k every 5 years however. I think thats absurd. 5k 1 time for me and re-qualify every year to prove that I am worthy to handle a firearm.
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  #47  
Old 11-08-2009, 2:53 PM
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That's your opinion. I wouldn't want to be forced to uphold the BS laws here in california.
So Kansas is your state of choice? You don't think they have BS laws over there?

Last edited by a1c; 11-08-2009 at 2:55 PM..
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  #48  
Old 11-08-2009, 3:31 PM
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So Kansas is your state of choice? You don't think they have BS laws over there?


Kansas was hypothetical, why are you *****ing at me again? Stick to the topic!
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  #49  
Old 11-08-2009, 4:17 PM
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I would be willing to put $500 into the pot for this experiment ...
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  #50  
Old 11-08-2009, 4:21 PM
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I woudl pay about 500$ to get a CCW and with training power to arrest bad guys. The problem is not everyone can be a LEO and then yourun into the problem of power trips for non LEO trained people
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  #51  
Old 11-08-2009, 4:23 PM
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Great idea. Judging by the number of posts and interest, it sounds like something much worth exploring...so what's the punchline intended?
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  #52  
Old 11-08-2009, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bigcalidave View Post
Kansas was hypothetical, why are you *****ing at me again? Stick to the topic!
Wow, calm down here. So let me see if I understand the topic in question, because it's still not quite clear for some of us what is suggested here.

What I seem to understand is that someone could set up a LEA somewhere in the US - basically, buys a town, for instance - and issue badges as some sort law enforcement deputy positions to whomever is ready to pay for it, even if they live out-of-state (in this case, CA).

Am I getting this right?
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  #53  
Old 11-08-2009, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jtippins View Post
Something that needs to be considered: Statutory rights to arrest is a HUGE authority. If a civilian detains another person it can be kidnapping. A great deal of authority is given to police for a reason.
Here in California, an average citizen has nearly the same powers of arrest as a peace officer.

The difference is in knowing when you can place someone under arrest.

As for the poll... I see no moral or ethical issue here. If there was a way I could pay some money to get credentials that would allow me to CCW here and across the nation, you better believe I'll do it.

However... once this comes to light, if people start doing whatever it is, sooner or later they'll start to be arrested. Why not? You'll complain that you're acting legally. Your complaints will come from inside of a jail cell, or after you've paid thousands or tens of thousands to bond out. You will then have the opportunity to retain an attorney and fight an opponent who has unlimited funding and manpower. And if, somehow, you prevail... you won't even get an apology. And if you're ever arrested again, you can do it all over.
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  #54  
Old 11-08-2009, 5:11 PM
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I'd do it, and pay a pretty penny (up to $500) if legal.
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  #55  
Old 11-08-2009, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post

What I seem to understand is that someone could set up a LEA somewhere in the US - basically, buys a town, for instance - and issue badges as some sort law enforcement deputy positions to whomever is ready to pay for it, even if they live out-of-state (in this case, CA).
If that is indeed the premise, I think it's going to fall on it's face. All those who were issued would have to meet the peace officer standards and training of that state. They would also have to be "employed" by the local authority.

Besides... isn't "buying" CCW permits with "campaign contributions" something we've been railing against?
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  #56  
Old 11-08-2009, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
Um... no... they are NOT earned, they are simply issued, by cities or other governing entities... and in some places it is done with little or no qualification or requirements... CA has some requirements that must be met, but there are other places which do NOT have the same criteria, but still issue credentials which are valid for the purpose of concealed cary under the Law enforcement protection act.

Look, you may disagree with it morally/ethically etc. But it gets you a concealed Cary permit that is valid in any state in the union. INCLUDING CA and NYC.
Let me know when LEAs start hiring cops that have not gone through the academy.
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  #57  
Old 11-08-2009, 6:20 PM
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not sure, but the idea is intriguing.
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Over reaction to non-crimes by State loyalists. If they keep up their heavy handed crap, soon it'll be a better gamble to shoot at cops before they even start bothering you considering the amount of time they're willing to put you in prison for if you cooperate.

Seems like that pendulum is about to shift.
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  #58  
Old 11-08-2009, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BigDogatPlay View Post
Besides... isn't "buying" CCW permits with "campaign contributions" something we've been railing against?
Err...no.

Not to speak on behalf of the whole community here, but what we have been rallying against is people's inability to enjoy their right to Keep and Bear Arms, wrongfully administered by the screwed up laws in California were only the privileged few can carry if only they pay off the right Sheriff.

Enjoying lawfully issued LEO / LEA creds as discussed in this thread as a mechanism for all those interested in assisting with the salary of those involved or the administration of such an agency would be very different than jumping on the bandwagon of a political campaign with the expectation of a favor in turn.

Similar perhaps in intent, but very different in their scope.
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  #59  
Old 11-08-2009, 6:32 PM
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LEA's have cops that have not gone through the academy all the time... remember there is a broad interpenetration of what constitutes a LEO for the purpose of HR218.

Which is specifically why HR218 is written the way it is.... there are a number of places where you are a cop if they say you are a cop... there are a number of places where you are considered a LEO even if you are just the equivalent of a process server.

Let me state this again.

There are states in the U.S. which have ZERO requirements for training, and ZERO requirements for applicants.

There are some instances where individuals can be legally considered LEO's even if they are convicted felons... which is WHY HR218 contains wording which prohibits felons and prohibited persons from carrying weapons even if they have law enforcement credentials.

Buying CCW's as a reward for campaign contributions is a no-no.... however if a municipality wanted to charge a 1k application fee to apply for a job as an auxiliary reserve constable which went directly into the city's coffers and was not a 'private' donation there would be no problem with it.

We need to remember that we in CA have different standards of what constitutes a LEO... we have post certification and state wide standards of acceptance, as well as other criteria... which simply do not apply uniformly across the U.S.

There are still places where you get to be a deputy simply by applying for the job... which makes you a LEO... which allows you to carry a concealed weapon anywhere in the USA.

The $$$$ incentive for the local municipality simply makes it a viable proposition for a cash strapped city council.

there is one state in particular which has a specific exemption in the penal code which allows for municipalities to appoint a special class of Law enforcement officers who are considered independent contractors and for whom the state/municipality assumes no liability for their actions... they also have limited jurisdiction and are paid only nominal sums.... BUT they legally qualify as LEO's... and there IS precedent to back it up with regard to HR218.

Lets assume for a minute that everything I'm suggesting is on the up and up... and this is simply a case of you pay your 'application fee' you pass a background check and you get issued credentials...

How much is it worth to you?
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  #60  
Old 11-08-2009, 6:49 PM
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For some reason I don't see this happening?
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  #61  
Old 11-08-2009, 6:54 PM
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For some reason I don't see this happening?
If 10,000 people spend 1,000 per application to get credentials, that's 10 million dollars... which for a small town in the rust belt is close to 5 times their annual budget...

that's 10 million very persuasive reasons to give it a try.
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  #62  
Old 11-08-2009, 6:57 PM
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cant issue. Must go through a post academy and have working hours to have this. Now a Sheriff or chief can issue a ccw, but it does not make you a leo!
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  #63  
Old 11-08-2009, 6:59 PM
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cant issue. Must go through a post academy and have working hours to have this. Now a Sheriff or chief can issue a ccw, but it does not make you a leo!
your correct... In CA

however for the purpouses of HR218 ANY municipality can issue you your credentials according to their own criteria (IF ANY).

remember CA has different standards than the national LEOSA bill.
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  #64  
Old 11-08-2009, 7:09 PM
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Im surprised at the number of people who lack reading comprehension skills.
-bb
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  #65  
Old 11-08-2009, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
there is one state in particular which has a specific exemption in the penal code which allows for municipalities to appoint a special class of Law enforcement officers who are considered independent contractors and for whom the state/municipality assumes no liability for their actions... they also have limited jurisdiction and are paid only nominal sums.... BUT they legally qualify as LEO's... and there IS precedent to back it up with regard to HR218.
Does this state allow non-residents of that state to be eligible for this special class of LEO?

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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
Lets assume for a minute that everything I'm suggesting is on the up and up... and this is simply a case of you pay your 'application fee' you pass a background check and you get issued credentials...

How much is it worth to you?
Need more info...
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  #66  
Old 11-08-2009, 7:21 PM
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To be able to help the world we live in and carry a gun... LEGALLY?

Well that would be worth lots to me personally as I think we all need to do more to help and stand together united as one.

So more than a dollar and less then a million?
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  #67  
Old 11-08-2009, 7:21 PM
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I thought about it and I still like it. Can the state violate the federal law on this one ? If they figure out the obvious intent can they just say they don't recognize our badges as legit ? Couldn't we buy a town in CA? They are all bankrupt too ! I figure the four different ccw permits I need to travel in and around CA cost at least 1000 to get. Not to mention renewals.
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  #68  
Old 11-08-2009, 7:23 PM
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It's a silly question to even propose. How about I'd pay XX$$ for a medical doctor degree and license, so that I can practice brain surgery.
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Old 11-08-2009, 7:28 PM
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Combating crime is every citizen's responsibility. However, at some point, just like all of us don't make shoes or provide IT services, some citizens were designated to combat crime. Keep in mind that they're still ordinary citizens who happen to have the job of fighting crime.

At some point, we gave these citizens extra powers, immunities, exceptions to the laws imposed upon the citizens not in the profession of fighting crime, etc. Which effectively made these citizens whose job is to combat crime more equal than the rest.

Then we've come up with the myth of one having to be a superhuman and have mythical training standards in order to be allowed to be the citizen whose job it is to fight crime.

However, this myth is BS fed to the citizenry by those interested in having the monopoly for the use of force and the ones who have acquired the Stockholm syndrome. As such, I'm not surprised to see a lot of outrage here over "non-qualified" "ordinary" people being granted LEO status by some "clearly misguided" city. I also have no problem with being granted such status, as it simply recognizes something that should need no recognition, but thanks to the sorry state of civil rights in this country does need it.
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Old 11-08-2009, 7:37 PM
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It's a silly question to even propose. How about I'd pay XX$$ for a medical doctor degree and license, so that I can practice brain surgery.
Because you don't become a LEO by virtue of training and a degree. You become a LEO by virtue of, while being an ordinary citizen, being designated to fight crime and uphold peace, and as such granted the relevant powers. It's up to whomever grants you those powers to demand training if you're given the job.

Just like it's up to the Board to demand training and certain credentials before issuing you the license to practice medicine.

Another example: when you're designated a soldier, someone whose job is to defend this country and its Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, you don't become one by the virtue of your training and graduation from Basic. You become one because you were selected, or you volunteered, to perform this specific duty of a citizen. Training is provided to make you more effective at that.
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Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


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Last edited by nick; 11-08-2009 at 7:41 PM..
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  #71  
Old 11-08-2009, 7:45 PM
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That being said, the response to this by governments from local to federal would likely be unpleasant and most likely unconstitutional. Not that the latter ever stopped any government body, and I doubt a bunch of corrupt and dishonest judges would be of much help.
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  #72  
Old 11-08-2009, 7:48 PM
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Details, details...

Text of LEOSA when it was HR 218...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...218enr.txt.pdf

‘‘(d) The identification required by this subsection is the photo-
graphic identification issued by the governmental agency for which
the individual is employed as a law enforcement officer."

The grey area comes in the definition of the word "employed." How grey? Charcoal. If you catch a case while trying to use your fantasy LEO credentials to justify LEOSA for yourself, then the case will come down to the judge/jury having to decide whether you are actually "employed" as a LEO. You may conjure up a scenario in which you may consider yourself employed when you do not do something as your main source of income, and you do not do it for, say, at least 30 hrs/week, but will the judge/jury actually buy this alternative definition of "employed"? Hey, take your chances.

That being said...
CA AG says that LEOSA applies to active, sworn reserve officers... http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/leosiss.pdf. Many departments specifically prohibit reservists from being being paid (+ no benefits, + no POA, + no retirement)... which would reasonably make them non-employees of the dept. and, following a strict reading of LEOSA, not grant CCW. So, a bit of a contradiction there. Then again, the AG doesn't make the law... this is just his interpretation of it.

So, there you go.

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  #73  
Old 11-08-2009, 8:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
There are states in the U.S. which have ZERO requirements for training, and ZERO requirements for applicants.
Can you name one or two please? With links or citation to the relevant codes of said state?
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  #74  
Old 11-08-2009, 8:12 PM
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Did not the jerk that crashed the Ferrari Enzo in Malibu have a phony public transportation company that allowed it to have transit police under California law, get caught in a world of hurt. Is this what you are talking about?
Yes he did, and for a whole lot of other reasons -- but the SGVTA was (as I recall) legal.

It wasn't legit (in the sense that they weren't actually doing what they claimed to be in business to do), but it apparently was legal under CA law.

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  #75  
Old 11-08-2009, 9:08 PM
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I think this would be a great idea, count me in!
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  #76  
Old 11-08-2009, 9:27 PM
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Best of luck if y'all try to go through with this. That being said, I don't think I'd personally touch this with a ten foot pole.
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  #77  
Old 11-08-2009, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by blackberg View Post
Im surprised at the number of people who lack reading comprehension skills.
-bb
No! I knew exactly what he was saying. I just feel that MOST states require you to be a resident to be given leo status. I have never heard of a state that gives a non resident that status. I feel that status would never work here. I could almost guarantee an attempted prosecution for trying it. I would hate to stand in front of 12 jurors here, and say " I am a cop in Alabama, but I have never even been to the state, but this card gives me leo status to carry a gun. "

Also the civil liability toward any department that issued this would be off the chart. Wait until one of the applicants does something stupid. Just a simple 417pc would put them a great civil liability
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Last edited by Solidmch; 11-08-2009 at 9:52 PM..
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  #78  
Old 11-08-2009, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
your correct... In CA

however for the purpouses of HR218 ANY municipality can issue you your credentials according to their own criteria (IF ANY).

remember CA has different standards than the national LEOSA bill.
Lets just say some unscrupulous PD in whatever backward state did just as you say they could and issued LEO credentials to you upon receipt of $1,000 (or what ever amount)

So they make their cash. One week, month or year later they rescind your LEO status.

Since you are not lawfully "retired" and you are no longer an LEO you are not entitled to nationwide carry.

And you are still out the cash with no legal recourse.

Scammers usually end up getting scammed.
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
your correct... In CA

however for the purpouses of HR218 ANY municipality can issue you your credentials according to their own criteria (IF ANY).

remember CA has different standards than the national LEOSA bill.
‘‘(c) As used in this section, the term ‘qualified law enforcement
officer’ means an employee of a governmental agency who—
‘‘(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the
prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the
incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has
statutory powers of arrest;
‘‘(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;
‘‘(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the
agency;
‘‘(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency
which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use
of a firearm;
H. R. 218—2
‘‘(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating
or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
‘‘(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a
firearm."



You are conveniently interpreting "if any" as applying to standards applying to LEO status in general when it clearly refers to regular firearm qualification. Some agencies qualify with their firearms every month, some every other month, some twice a year. Some require their retirees to qualify annually, others not at all.
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Last edited by Bruce; 11-08-2009 at 11:33 PM..
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  #80  
Old 11-08-2009, 11:08 PM
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Being a LEO is a job, and usually a lifestyle for most. I do not want their job or their lifestyle. I'd rather see citizens get the same rights as LEO's as they're one and the same.
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