[supermario]

Originally Posted by 510shooter510

I had #8 birdshot that would not penetrate a cardboard target at 25 yards. Given enough money, with face protection and thick enough clothing, I would let someone shoot #8 at me from 40 yards out of an 18" smooth bore 12 gauge. Would not say that for a 22 caliber though.
But that would be really stupid lol.

Can i unload 10rnds of birdshot on you at 40yards with my Saiga 12
I can unload it in about 2 seconds. But its just birdshot so you dont have to worry. JK . I think everybody under estimates birdshot, if its used INSIDE a home, it will kill a person. Of course if its used at further distances, its not as effective, but who is gonna test that.

I saw a test they did on the Outdoor channel and it showed that birdshot is good for home defense becus at close range it will kill and not penetrate walls, but the 00buck did penetrate two walls if i remember correctly.

[mossberg500]

i load my mossy tube with 4 mini buck 9 pellets and and 3 sabot slugs for double tap

[luckystrike]

i donno, I wouldnt like going home and picking 300 little lead pelets out of my skin....

[elSquid]

The following is a pretty good overview of the effects of various loads in gelatin: ( Beware - lots of images, it may take a while to load in your browser )

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=7&t=109958

I've got reduced recoil 00 for my 870.

-- Michael

[1988]

Originally Posted by tombinghamthegreat

Well if that is your mentality why would you even defend yourself? If you are going to defend your family or yourself why not do it effectively?

Let's see what's going to happen if someone try to harm my family.

[secretasianman]

Ballistics tests just prove birdshot doesn't reliably get the job done. Its getting cold this time of year: good luck getting birdshot through thick jackets (leather) and/or multiple layers of clothing.

[ANDREWMENDEZ]

I have personally, with my own eyes, seen someone who had been shoot multiple times with bird loads! They didn't penetrate through his pants, and barely got thru his sweater and shirt in a few places. Why not do a self test. Go to the range, and make a stand with a couple layers of cardboard, set it 20 feet away, and shoot at it, and tell me how well it penetrated.
When birds start breaking into peoples houses, I will load my shot gun with bird loads, but until then, 00 Buck shots they are!

[pigiron]

Birdshot is for birds, buckshot is for bucks.

[drunktank]

Wow, I didn't expect so many responses in so little time! It really helped!

I was basically gauging my experience with 00-buck between an episode on the outdoor channel and also shooting 30-round drums through a USAS-12. The effects of it were devistating and I was concerned it'd be a bit much for my house since my 2 kids rooms are on adjacent walls. Sounds like reduced load 00 or 4 buckshot would be good for my home. Just picked up 3 cases of remington 00-buck for cheap too!

Thanks again for the replies. Hopefully none of us will ever have to test each others' theories.

[yelohamr]

I use OO buck. About 30 years ago, a man that I hunted with told me that during the depression of the '30's, he used to hunt deer with #6 birdshot. HE said that he would uncrimp the shells and pore melted wax over the shot, which in effect made it a short range slug.
I tried it with a single shot 20 guage and it put a single hole through the door of an abandoned refrigerator. There were a lot of small holes inside, as the waxed slug/shot broke up going through the door.

[justin_5585]

Originally Posted by pigiron

Birdshot is for birds, buckshot is for bucks.

Well by that logic then, neither is for people

[1988]

Originally Posted by justin_5585

Well by that logic then, neither is for people

.223 was designed as a varmint round, but I guess we can use it for more than just varmint.

[pigiron]

Not all bucks have hooves.

[bdsmchs]

Originally Posted by justin_5585

Well by that logic then, neither is for people

The difference is when you start comparing mass.

Bird shot is designed to take down SMALL birds. We're talking targets that weigh a pound or less.

Buck shot is designed to take down deer that can weigh in excess of 150lb's and are designed more similarly to humans than birds are.

Something designed to take down a buck WILL be well-suited to taking down a human.

Something designed to take down an 8-ounce bird WILL NOT be well-suited to taking down a human.

[pigiron]

You need to use the right ammunition to end the threat. Using birdshot and hoping for the best is ****y.

[garuda7]

dick cheney shot a man in the face with birdshot...lol

[tacticalcity]

Birdshot = really pissed off bad guy taking your shotgun from you and beating you to death with it after you disfigured his face.

Buckshot = dead bad guy and a lot of annoying questions from a pinko DA.

[Two Shots]

Originally Posted by Josh3239

Yikes! Birdshot? Cops have died when they forgot to replace their practice birdshot rounds with issued rounds and then exchanged fire with criminals.

Do you have a source for these? I believe it is standard procedure for the LEO to check and load the shotgun at the beginning of the shift prior to putting it in the vehicle and then they download the weapon at the end of the shift.

Anyone try 3'' steel shot in #2 shot or BB's at 15 feet? An attacker will be DOA with a center mass shot. You'll still have to worry about over penetration of sheetrock with BB's and #2 shot.
00 Buckshot has been the standard rd for LEO's for over 100 years, they also use slugs in thier shotguns.

Even tho 00 Buck is recomended by many ,#4 Buck is another good load for defense.

[glockman19]

Originally Posted by LE132_00

I prefer 00 buck because I know that it will penetrate whatever I'm shooting at. I would never ever tell anyone to load birdshot because it simply doesn't penetrate far enough into a target to get to the vital organs. 00 does penetrate far enough into the target to get to the vital organs. IMHO the smallest HD load for a shotgun that will still penetrate enough is #4 buck. 00 is ideal.

Just my .02

I agree but I prefer #4 for shotgun home defense. #0, #00 and Slugs will easily go through drywall and keep going

[pigiron]

Suggesting the use of buckshot is good. What is missing is the suggestion to find out what type and brand patterns "best" in your particular shotgun. (At the distances most often found in your own home.)

Keep in mind, aiming is critical.

[pigiron]

Originally Posted by Two Shots

Do you have a source for these? I believe it is standard procedure for the LEO to check and load the shotgun at the beginning of the shift prior to putting it in the vehicle and then they download the weapon at the end of the shift.

Anyone try 3'' steel shot in #2 shot or BB's at 15 feet? An attacker will be DOA with a center mass shot. You'll still have to worry about over penetration of sheetrock with BB's and #2 shot.
00 Buckshot has been the standard rd for LEO's for over 100 years, they also use slugs in thier shotguns.

Even tho 00 Buck is recomended by many ,#4 Buck is another good load for defense.

I can only sight a personal example, but I found a purple 16 gauge shell in the magazine tube one time. Most assuredly, that was against department policy.

[IDPA4U]

Remington's Solution:

http://www.remington.com/products/am.../home_defense/

Experts agree a shotgun is the best firearm for home defense. For 2009, Remington announces a new ammunition product designed to enhance the effectiveness of your shotgun in a home defense scenario – Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense.


Don't Trust Your Family's Safety to Anything Else

Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shotgun ammunition features the same pellet material as the popular Wingmaster HD™ tungsten-bronze hunting ammunition and is offered in two loadings. Consumers can choose from a load of BB’s for the highest terminal energy or a duplex mixture of #2 and #4 pellets for excellent pattern density and outstanding stopping power with a reduced chance of over-penetration.


Both loads are 12 gauge, 2 ¾-inch with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at 1250 feet per second. At the most commonly encountered home defense distances, Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense produces very tight patterns for one-shot confidence.

HD Ultimate Home Defense ammunition is the perfect compliment to Remington’s recently expanded line of tactical shotguns. Recent additions to the line include the Model 870 Express® Tactical with XS® Ghost Ring Sights and the Model 870 Express Tactical with Gray Powder Coat Finish. Both shotguns are 12 gauge and feature 3-inch chambered 18 ½-inch barrels which are threaded for the included Tactical Extended Rem™ Choke. Average weight for both models is 7 ½-pounds, overall length is 38 ½-inches and both guns are equipped with a black synthetic stock and fore-end. Download Brochure


Gauge Shell Length Velocity Oz. of Shot Shot Size
HD Ultimate Home Defense Loads

12 2 3/4 1250 1 1/4 BB
12 2 3/4 1250 1 1/4 2x4 Duplex

[pigiron]

Originally Posted by IDPA$U

Remington's Solution:

http://www.remington.com/products/am.../home_defense/

Experts agree a shotgun is the best firearm for home defense. For 2009, Remington announces a new ammunition product designed to enhance the effectiveness of your shotgun in a home defense scenario – Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense.


Don't Trust Your Family's Safety to Anything Else

Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shotgun ammunition features the same pellet material as the popular Wingmaster HD™ tungsten-bronze hunting ammunition and is offered in two loadings. Consumers can choose from a load of BB’s for the highest terminal energy or a duplex mixture of #2 and #4 pellets for excellent pattern density and outstanding stopping power with a reduced chance of over-penetration.


Both loads are 12 gauge, 2 ¾-inch with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at 1250 feet per second. At the most commonly encountered home defense distances, Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense produces very tight patterns for one-shot confidence.

HD Ultimate Home Defense ammunition is the perfect compliment to Remington’s recently expanded line of tactical shotguns. Recent additions to the line include the Model 870 Express® Tactical with XS® Ghost Ring Sights and the Model 870 Express Tactical with Gray Powder Coat Finish. Both shotguns are 12 gauge and feature 3-inch chambered 18 ½-inch barrels which are threaded for the included Tactical Extended Rem™ Choke. Average weight for both models is 7 ½-pounds, overall length is 38 ½-inches and both guns are equipped with a black synthetic stock and fore-end. Download Brochure


Gauge Shell Length Velocity Oz. of Shot Shot Size
HD Ultimate Home Defense Loads

12 2 3/4 1250 1 1/4 BB
12 2 3/4 1250 1 1/4 2x4 Duplex

Birdshot.

[Beelzy]

You got me.

I prefer 000 buck 3" magnums.

[Dirtbiker]

Originally Posted by eccvets

I use slugs with max load dram for home defence! Oh and to all which say, "but what about your neighbors", I say f my neighbors! S happens and if you just happen to catch a stray, well you just happen to catch a stray...

I'm glad I'm not your neighbor...

[dirtnap]

I keep (5) 7.5oz - 2 3/4 in my 18" 1300 with an extra full choke. It hits very hard and tight out to about 25.

[justin_5585]

Originally Posted by IDPA$U

Remington's Solution:


Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shotgun ammunition features the same pellet material as the popular Wingmaster HD™ tungsten-bronze hunting ammunition

My home isn't a wildlife refuge, I think lead is just fine for the girls I run with...

[HondaMasterTech]

The link to the shotgunworld article is great. Thanks for posting. Excellent information to help choosing a proper defensive load. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=7&t=109958

[thomashoward]

Originally Posted by Dirtbiker

I'm glad I'm not your neighbor...

I use # 4 Buck. I happen to like my neighbors. Some people think bigger is better. I like more pellets downrange. Across the room there is not much spread with 00, you won't lose anything using #4
check the pattern on an old door at 20 feet

[Josh3239]

There are a couple stories out there regarding the ineffectiveness of birdshot. There are a couple of people getting shot with it and walking to the arriving ambulance and such.

I remember one story from the Box O Truth. Here is one of the stories posted:

"I received a note from a police officer that asked me not to mention names or locations about this true event. A police officer was involved in some shotgun training, where they used #6 birdshot in the training due to lower cost. After the training session, he forgot to remove the birdshot and replace it with 00 Buckshot, the normal carry load. That night, while on patrol, he confronted a couple of burglars and was in a shootout with them. He shot both of them with his shotgun, but forgot that he had it loaded with birdshot.

They killed the officer and escaped.

Originally Posted by Two Shots

Do you have a source for these? I believe it is standard procedure for the LEO to check and load the shotgun at the beginning of the shift prior to putting it in the vehicle and then they download the weapon at the end of the shift.

[ricochet]

I've always thought 1 rd bird and the rest of the tube is filled w/buck. I've always thought 00 buck but there's some compelling ideas here for using smaller buck (more lead out there). I also like the idea of the Black Cloud #2 shot as the 1'st rd.

While the cowboy in me says "make 'em a doornail", the reasonable person in me says "give 'em 1 rd not to be a doornail". I think 1 rd of BC is enough time to chamber the buck if needed (unless I have a Saiga 12 :-)

In the event the 1rd of BC makes the BG run away; pretty easy for cops to track him down (sounds like he'll be a little messed up). And it gives the neighbor a 1 rd advantage of not catching the proverbial stray.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by Josh3239

There are a couple stories out there regarding the ineffectiveness of birdshot. There are a couple of people getting shot with it and walking to the arriving ambulance and such.

I remember one story from the Box O Truth. Here is one of the stories posted:

"I received a note from a police officer that asked me not to mention names or locations about this true event. A police officer was involved in some shotgun training, where they used #6 birdshot in the training due to lower cost. After the training session, he forgot to remove the birdshot and replace it with 00 Buckshot, the normal carry load. That night, while on patrol, he confronted a couple of burglars and was in a shootout with them. He shot both of them with his shotgun, but forgot that he had it loaded with birdshot.

They killed the officer and escaped.

This really is not a reliable source of information. Does anyone have a cited case or real evidence proving the ineffectiveness of birdshot?

[GraveTrain]

If you've made the decision to shoot an intruder in your home, you better make it count and make sure you've put them down. My shotgun is loaded with 8 rounds of 00 Buck.

IMO, Bird/Target shot is only good if you live in a community of criminal, pasty skinned, hemophiliacs.

[LE132_00]

Here's one
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?se...cal&id=5672136
An officer is shot in the face with birdshot and still manages to chase the suspects for almost 4 blocks.

There are instances where birdshot has killed people, I won't argue that it hasn't. But comparing it to 00 buck, birdshot just won't penetrate to the same depth that 00 will penetrate. Birdshot may kill someone yes, but what is the realistic chance of that happening? Birdshot won't reliably do the job. If you need to use deadly force use something that is reliable, something that will stop the threat. That IMHO is buckshot, whether it be #4 buck, #1 buck, 00 buck, or 000 buck.

[Killawhale415]

[QUOTE=eccvets;3304301]I use slugs with max load dram for home defence! I mean seriously, what if the theif hides behind something like a wall??? He/she could have a gun, he could have bodyarmor, he could have a knife, he could have AIDS. Either way I'm not taking a chance and I'm unloading my entire mag into his *ss and then reloading before going to check the body. Oh and to all which say, "but what about your neighbors", I say f my neighbors! S happens and if you just happen to catch a stray, well you just happen to catch a stray...
\

Thats the most irresponsible thing ive heard in a long time.

scuse me the most igrint thing ive read

[LE132_00]

Thats the most irresponsible thing ive heard in a long time.

I couldn't agree with you more

[HondaMasterTech]

I can.

[luchador768]

Originally Posted by NorCal

This really is not a reliable source of information. Does anyone have a cited case or real evidence proving the ineffectiveness of birdshot?

I have personally taken care of at least 6 people shot with bird shot, #7 or smaller, that walked out of the hospital with almost no severe injuries. Three were struck in the head/upper torso. There were many pellets in the x-rays so I assumed the distance was pretty close. Bird shot seems pretty worthless against humans past about 4 or 5 yards in a short barrel.

[pigiron]

Originally Posted by yelohamr

I use OO buck. About 30 years ago, a man that I hunted with told me that during the depression of the '30's, he used to hunt deer with #6 birdshot. HE said that he would uncrimp the shells and pore melted wax over the shot, which in effect made it a short range slug.
I tried it with a single shot 20 guage and it put a single hole through the door of an abandoned refrigerator. There were a lot of small holes inside, as the waxed slug/shot broke up going through the door.

I will venture that that gentleman who have used buckshot if it was available. He did what he did to put meat on the table.

[Mstnpete]

I like using #4 Buck for home defense!

#4 BUCK SHOT fires 27 # 004 buck shot balls at 1,100 fps. Massive and lethal injuries are usually produced by the violent release of the pellets in a six inch area when fired from 12 feet.

Most police departments use these. It does not over penetrate unlike the 00 Buck.