Basic training attrition rates.

[dwa]

Originally Posted by professionalcoyotehunter

I partially agree with that also. although I have seen quite a few women out perform men. Mostly Marine women. I have also seen plenty of men get out of work for stupid reasons ie. Sick call Rangers.

but were the men they were out preforming stellar examples of good soldiers? i found sick call rangerettes using their period to get out of stuff infuriating.

[professionalcoyotehunter]

Wouldn't you use your power of the period if you had one? I seen guy with the diarrhea get out of most everything.

[dwa]

Originally Posted by professionalcoyotehunter

Wouldn't you use your power of the period if you had one? I seen guy with the diarrhea get out of most everything.

no because i wasn't a dirt bag, i have little sympathy for men on their rag that try to get out of stuff either, but if you have a set amount of personnel say 30 and 10 of then have a "condition" that precludes them from work, 33% of your work doesn't disappear. Additionally while it takes two to tango one of them gets shipped home if they get pregnant. i don't think women should not be in the military and like i stated earlier the best k dub pilot was a female but i don't think i would have wanted her to be in my fire team. women are great at a multitude of things and are not well suited to some others blame it on humans having different sexes.

[tacticalcity]

Playing Devil’s advocate for a minute...because I really don't care one way or another about this issue (I'm not a woman, don't have daughters and my days of military service are long behind me).

Based strictly on your argument there are a lot of jobs in Special Ops that would be a possibility for women.

Some of the best marathon and triathlon runners in the world are women. Endurance tests seem to be their thing, and they have exceptional lower body strength.

Take the most elite unit, Delta Force. If Eric Haney's book Inside Delta Force is to be believed, upper body strength is not what their selection process is about. They are almost exclusively about endurance and ability to think when your body begins to fail. If you look at the picture in his book of a group of Delta Force guys, they are all scrawny little guys and not Arnold types. He specifically says the buff guys find their size to be a liability. He describes extremely long hikes, day-in and day-out followed up with non-stop mind games. Lots of word games that would confuse me even after a full nights rest. The tests are intentionally unfair, and the drop a lot of people for no other reason than they can, just to see how the others react to the unfairness of it and to increase the stress level. But he does not describe bench pressing contests or pushups at all. So based on his book, there is little doubt a woman would have as much chance as a man during the selection process with regards to the physical requirements. Since the tests are geared towards things they tend to be good at. Anyone with a history of running marathons and doing triathlons would do well in that selection process. Us normal mortals would have a very hard time. After selection, when they shoot thousands of rounds of .45 ACP a day in live fire training exercises with other team members sitting in front of targets, that is where upper body strength begins to matter and my argument falls apart. The right woman however, could handle it.

They should do alright any time water is involved. As a general rule they have more body fat, and muscle doesn't float. The super big buff guys have a lot harder time becoming a Navy Seal or a Coast Guard diver because of the time they spend in the water. So in one major aspect of those jobs, they have a leg up. Again, we do come back to your argument about upper body strength which eliminates the average woman. The seals stress it pretty heavily, not sure about Coast Guard divers but they probably do as well. However, the average man could not do those jobs either. Only the most exceptional person would make it. A woman who is a fitness nut would have a much better chance than the average Joe.

Eventually politics is going to win out. It always does. For example. There are hundreds of arguments against gays in the military. Eventually political pressure won out. Regardless of how you personally feel about it, it's the way it is now. The same will eventually happen with women in all sorts of combat rolls.

Hopefully it will be done in a common sense way. No separate tests. No gender norming. They either pass the same tests, or they don't get the job. If they can do the job then it makes sense to let them do it. If they can't, then it doesn't.

For the record, I never liked the idea of gender norming the tests. I want to know the person in the fox hole next to me can pull their own weight regardless of gender. I want to know I only have to worry about doing my job and not theirs. If they can do the job...why should you or I stop them? The problem with rigging the tests is they do allow a lot of people to get in that shouldn't be. It is based on the idea they they will be in the rear with the gear anyway. But in today's military, women find themselves in combat all the time. Strictly speaking they shouldn't, but the real world does not work like a text book and there are no safe areas when fighting terrorists. So yes, I agree...the tests should be harder just to get in. That said, plenty of woman could cut it even if the tests were the same.

[4thSBCT]

women as delta force? Although you are mostly correct on issues of lower body strength, build, and stamina, elite soldiers are also selected for their demeanor. Women, by nature, are more caring, nurturing, and emotional. Emotions will get you killed out in the field. Its different for female apache pilots who kill green heat signatures on a computer screen, its less personal. Sure, I bet there are some ruthless women out there, I know I'm married to one, but generally speaking I don't think women would make very good commandos.

[Dekker]

Is it true that women who get pregnant are given the option to separate from the Army? I remember a few Recruiters on the official Army forum telling me this little tidbit of info. And it came back up again because a co-worker told me her single niece was tired of being in the Army but still had a few years left in her contract(and no doubt a deployment mixed in there) and was contemplating getting pregnant by her boyfriend just to be discharged in an honorable code. Knowing her, she would have most likely gotten pregnant for the purpose of being separated and then would have either aborted or given the baby up for adoption. That's how serious some people are to get out.......

That's a pretty sweet trump card women hold.

[4thSBCT]

I think it only applies to women who get preg and are single. The same thing can happen to men who have or are awarded sole custody of their children.

[dwa]

Originally Posted by tacticalcity

Playing Devil’s advocate for a minute...because I really don't care one way or another about this issue (I'm not a woman, don't have daughters and my days of military service are long behind me).

Based strictly on your argument there are a lot of jobs in Special Ops that would be a possibility for women.

Some of the best marathon and triathlon runners in the world are women. Endurance tests seem to be their thing, and they have exceptional lower body strength.

Take the most elite unit, Delta Force. If Eric Haney's book Inside Delta Force is to be believed, upper body strength is not what their selection process is about. They are almost exclusively about endurance and ability to think when your body begins to fail. If you look at the picture in his book of a group of Delta Force guys, they are all scrawny little guys and not Arnold types. He specifically says the buff guys find their size to be a liability. He describes extremely long hikes, day-in and day-out followed up with non-stop mind games. Lots of word games that would confuse me even after a full nights rest. The tests are intentionally unfair, and the drop a lot of people for no other reason than they can, just to see how the others react to the unfairness of it and to increase the stress level. But he does not describe bench pressing contests or pushups at all. So based on his book, there is little doubt a woman would have as much chance as a man during the selection process with regards to the physical requirements. Since the tests are geared towards things they tend to be good at. Anyone with a history of running marathons and doing triathlons would do well in that selection process. Us normal mortals would have a very hard time. After selection, when they shoot thousands of rounds of .45 ACP a day in live fire training exercises with other team members sitting in front of targets, that is where upper body strength begins to matter and my argument falls apart. The right woman however, could handle it.

They should do alright any time water is involved. As a general rule they have more body fat, and muscle doesn't float. The super big buff guys have a lot harder time becoming a Navy Seal or a Coast Guard diver because of the time they spend in the water. So in one major aspect of those jobs, they have a leg up. Again, we do come back to your argument about upper body strength which eliminates the average woman. The seals stress it pretty heavily, not sure about Coast Guard divers but they probably do as well. However, the average man could not do those jobs either. Only the most exceptional person would make it. A woman who is a fitness nut would have a much better chance than the average Joe.

Eventually politics is going to win out. It always does. For example. There are hundreds of arguments against gays in the military. Eventually political pressure won out. Regardless of how you personally feel about it, it's the way it is now. The same will eventually happen with women in all sorts of combat rolls.

Hopefully it will be done in a common sense way. No separate tests. No gender norming. They either pass the same tests, or they don't get the job. If they can do the job then it makes sense to let them do it. If they can't, then it doesn't.

For the record, I never liked the idea of gender norming the tests. I want to know the person in the fox hole next to me can pull their own weight regardless of gender. I want to know I only have to worry about doing my job and not theirs. If they can do the job...why should you or I stop them? The problem with rigging the tests is they do allow a lot of people to get in that shouldn't be. It is based on the idea they they will be in the rear with the gear anyway. But in today's military, women find themselves in combat all the time. Strictly speaking they shouldn't, but the real world does not work like a text book and there are no safe areas when fighting terrorists. So yes, I agree...the tests should be harder just to get in. That said, plenty of woman could cut it even if the tests were the same.

id agree with you there i9f you have a super stud woman marathon runner type she should be doing some CIA type badassness not wasting their talent in an 11b slot.

[dwa]

Originally Posted by 4thSBCT

women as delta force? Although you are mostly correct on issues of lower body strength, build, and stamina, elite soldiers are also selected for their demeanor. Women, by nature, are more caring, nurturing, and emotional. Emotions will get you killed out in the field. Its different for female apache pilots who kill green heat signatures on a computer screen, its less personal. Sure, I bet there are some ruthless women out there, I know I'm married to one, but generally speaking I don't think women would make very good commandos.

tell that to her http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

[tacticalcity]

Originally Posted by 4thSBCT

women as delta force? Although you are mostly correct on issues of lower body strength, build, and stamina, elite soldiers are also selected for their demeanor. Women, by nature, are more caring, nurturing, and emotional. Emotions will get you killed out in the field. Its different for female apache pilots who kill green heat signatures on a computer screen, its less personal. Sure, I bet there are some ruthless women out there, I know I'm married to one, but generally speaking I don't think women would make very good commandos.

You are dating very different women than I seem to meet. The ones I end up with are all soulness spawns from hell without any emotion other than hatred and don't have a single nurturing bone in their body. Then again, maybe I just bring that out them!