Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #241  
Old 09-25-2009, 9:09 AM
mmartin's Avatar
mmartin mmartin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 951
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
+100
step up. even if you don't see the likely outcome you want, step up. if we lose, will it make it all ok because you can say "see I told you so"?

if we lose, I'd rather be able to say "but I never gave an inch without a fight."

step up. if you don't you give our rights away without a fight.

so, which gun shops and ranges are you taking flyers to?

step up.
megan
__________________
"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams
"To maintain the ascendancy of the Constitution over the lawmaking majority is the great and essential point on which the success of the system must depend;" - John C Calhoun
"If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 09-25-2009, 10:37 AM
jdberger's Avatar
jdberger jdberger is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,950
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcbrown View Post
Call it what you will. He's almost certainly right. The people who want to disarm us are very rich and very powerful. Their money and influence is their advantage.

We have our own advantage: our numbers. That is sadly no guarantee of victory, otherwise we would have won long ago. But it is an advantage.

It's an advantage we will lose if we choose to ignore and lambaste those who would tell it like it is.

Calling a spade a spade does not make one a quitter, and ignoring the truth does not make one stronger.

This is a fight we must fight in order to regain the liberties we have lost and to prevent the loss of any more of them. To win, you must know what you're up against.

Ignore that at your peril.


Yep. That's true regardless of your assessment of the progress of the fight.
Our numbers? Are you flippin' serious?

What numbers?

Of the people who've commented in this thread or in the other AB 962 threads, how many are ACTIVELY doing something?

How many have volunteered to canvass their local gunshops? How many volunteer to to ANYTHING besides the bare minimum NRA one-click email?

How many can be bothered to do even that?

Numbers...bah!

We don't have numbers. We barely have a dedicated constituency.

Thank goodness there are people like Wildhawker, Hoffmang, artherd, Oaklander, 8-ball, etc who are willing to GET UP OFF THEIR BUTTS and do something.

I'm don't ignore the OP. I hope to encourage him to stop whining and DO SOMETHING. Sorry, but the time for gentle persuasion and hand-holding is over.

Now is the time. This, right here, is the place.

ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO, don't tell us what you can't.

We don't care.
__________________
Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky.

90% of winning is simply showing up.

"Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green


NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #243  
Old 09-25-2009, 5:32 PM
kcbrown's Avatar
kcbrown kcbrown is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,817
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
Our numbers? Are you flippin' serious?

What numbers?
Behind each activist (of any persuasion) you'll find tens, hundreds, or even more people who share their beliefs but are not as active in pursuing them, for whatever reason.

Want to know the numbers? Just look at the massive increase in firearm and ammunition sales that occurred after Obama took office. EACH ONE of those people is someone who believes at a minimum that THEY should have the right to own a firearm and to use it in self defense if the need arises.


Are you seriously going to try to argue that the number of such people is small?


Quote:
We don't have numbers. We barely have a dedicated constituency.
Yet you obviously believe we have the power to win. Those two beliefs are almost directly in opposition to one another. So which one is it?


Quote:
I'm don't ignore the OP. I hope to encourage him to stop whining and DO SOMETHING. Sorry, but the time for gentle persuasion and hand-holding is over.

Now is the time. This, right here, is the place.

ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO, don't tell us what you can't.

We don't care.
I completely agree.

There's no reason you can't be active and realistic all at the same time.
Reply With Quote
  #244  
Old 09-25-2009, 6:24 PM
wildhawker's Avatar
wildhawker wildhawker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 14,419
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

Kc, our number (of active volunteers) is relatively small- yet we can make a disproportionately large impact. Jdberger's statements were not conflicting if you understand the point he was trying to make.

Last edited by wildhawker; 09-26-2009 at 9:08 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #245  
Old 09-25-2009, 6:42 PM
bomb_on_bus's Avatar
bomb_on_bus bomb_on_bus is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bakersfield, CA Kern Co.
Posts: 5,467
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Heck I went to the local CSU that I attend, to talk about the AB962 pending law and just about everyone there was for it even though they had no real idea about what it was about. It was all pretty much the same band wagon thinking that got the great dicktator voted to office in the first place. Out of the 100's I asked and talked to only a few where actually willing to listen or didn't have a biased view towards it.

Hopefully there's enough of us out there that is making a difference to get this bill abolished before it comes law.
__________________

Ahhhhhhhhhhh! Man that was some great Kool-Aid.......... hmmmmmm theres a hint of something metallic. Oh well guess I will get on with the voting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGTp View Post
So if you do ban me you will hear from my lawyer as to why you think you can violate peoples civil rights
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130 View Post
Oh for ****s sake, now there are two of them.This is the type of **** anti's point to when they want to make us all look crazy.
Reply With Quote
  #246  
Old 09-25-2009, 6:47 PM
porkwithrice porkwithrice is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 7
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I am new on these forums but have recently become fed up with California's laws. The recent bill on the Governor's desk has pushed me to go and buy my first new handgun in 5 years and renew my NRA membership. The more California lawmakers push on the law abiding public the more they will anger people like me who have sat by allowing them to punish those who try and legally own their firearms. The anger and contempt I feel now for the California Govt. has moved me into action to do whatever I can to retain the few rights I still have.
Reply With Quote
  #247  
Old 09-25-2009, 6:48 PM
wildhawker's Avatar
wildhawker wildhawker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 14,419
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

Bomb, rest assured that you telling them was probably the first they'd heard of it. We can beat these bills. -BC
Reply With Quote
  #248  
Old 09-25-2009, 7:12 PM
kcbrown's Avatar
kcbrown kcbrown is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,817
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Kc, our number (of active volunteers) is relatively small- yet we can make a disproportionately large impact. Jdberger's statements were not conflicting if you understand the point we was trying to make.
Well, relatively small compared to what? The number of active volunteers in the opposite camp?

Activists today are a relatively rare breed. Most people have been numbed into inaction. That's not an accident.


I expect our ranks are growing much faster than the opposition's, as evidenced by the marked increase in firearms purchases.
Reply With Quote
  #249  
Old 09-25-2009, 7:23 PM
technique's Avatar
technique technique is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Idaho- don't come here.
Posts: 10,561
iTrader: 77 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by porkwithrice View Post
I am new on these forums but have recently become fed up with California's laws. The recent bill on the Governor's desk has pushed me to go and buy my first new handgun in 5 years and renew my NRA membership. The more California lawmakers push on the law abiding public the more they will anger people like me who have sat by allowing them to punish those who try and legally own their firearms. The anger and contempt I feel now for the California Govt. has moved me into action to do whatever I can to retain the few rights I still have.
Welcome!
__________________
07/02 Out of State FFL

California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles
Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California

I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President...
Reply With Quote
  #250  
Old 09-25-2009, 8:13 PM
wildhawker's Avatar
wildhawker wildhawker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 14,419
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

Bodger, have faith.
Reply With Quote
  #251  
Old 09-25-2009, 8:17 PM
dustoff31 dustoff31 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Live in AZ, 2nd Home in So. CA
Posts: 8,187
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodger View Post
I guarantee you will never see that kind of 2A freedom in CA unless there is total breakdown of the system and total anarchy ensues.

I know many will disagree with that statement, but the genie is out of the bottle here for good. Best case, we stay even.
Well, I might as well jump into the fire with you.

The fact of the matter is that all the "fighting", "we" have done really hasn't accomplished all that much.

Unless by "we", people are referring to folks like Arthurd, BWeiss, HoffmanG, 10%firearms, and a couple of dozen others, sorry I don't have the whole cast of characters. Whatever gains that have been made in CA is largely, no almost exclusively, due the efforts of these people.

The reason they have suceeded is that they have used the courts and various administrative procedures and shoved it down the throats of bureaucrats and politicians. That is the only way anything changes in CA.

It doesn't matter what our numbers are, those in power don't care. They only understand the same methods they employ against us, that is the force of law, and sometimes they don't even understand that.

CA will become a free state in regard to firearms only when SCOTUS tells them that they damn well will become one. Hopefully that will happen next summer or thereabouts.

While everyone can and should do their part to educate non-shooters and introduce them to the sport, understand that is all it is. Education and introduction. That's not fighting.
__________________
"Did I say "republic?" By God, yes, I said "republic!" Long live the glorious republic of the United States of America. Damn democracy. It is a fraudulent term used, often by ignorant persons but no less often by intellectual fakers, to describe an infamous mixture of socialism, miscegenation, graft, confiscation of property and denial of personal rights to individuals whose virtuous principles make them offensive." - Westbrook Pegler
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 09-25-2009, 8:27 PM
wildhawker's Avatar
wildhawker wildhawker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 14,419
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustoff31 View Post
Education and introduction. That's not fighting.
I'll respectfully have to disagree.
__________________
Brandon Combs

I do not read private messages, and my inbox is usually full. If you need to reach me, please email me instead.

My comments are not the official position or a statement of any organization unless stated otherwise. My comments are not legal advice; if you want or need legal advice, hire a lawyer.

Last edited by wildhawker; 09-25-2009 at 8:31 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 09-25-2009, 8:45 PM
Josh3239's Avatar
Josh3239 Josh3239 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 8,829
iTrader: 53 / 100%
Default

Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time.
Thomas A. Edison

Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.
Thomas A. Edison

Restlessness and discontent are the first necessities of progress.
Thomas A. Edison

Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm.
Sir Winston Churchill

There is no failure except in no longer trying.
Elbert Hubbard

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickofSoCal View Post
Just thinking back............here in California, have "we" pro-gunners ever stopped anything significant?

We didn't stop 1989, nor did we stop 1999.

Hell, we couldn't even stop the L.A. County Board of Supervisors when they banned the the Great Western Gun Show in 1999, which was billed as the "world's largest gun show" from the Pomona fairgrounds where the show had been held for the last 30 ******* years.





The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickofSoCal View Post

And, one last thing. Where is your "line in the sand"? Will you always obey whatever they call "law"? At some point, mass non-compliance has to be our salvation. (including businesses and retailers) If we stood shoulder to shoulder and proclaimed "We will not obey your unjust laws", what then?

Whining, begging, and pleading will only get us so far. Our Founders did not whine, beg, and plead with King George - they were in open rebellion.
__________________
Proud NRA Life Member As Of 2016


"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." – Norman Thomas, American socialist

Last edited by Josh3239; 09-25-2009 at 8:48 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 09-25-2009, 8:50 PM
7x57's Avatar
7x57 7x57 is offline
Calguns Addict
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 5,161
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustoff31 View Post
While everyone can and should do their part to educate non-shooters and introduce them to the sport, understand that is all it is. Education and introduction. That's not fighting.
Wrong. It simply is a different kind, with a different timescale.

*Nothing*--no law, no Constitution, no organization, no nothing can preserve the RKBA unless the citizens value it. They cannot value it unless they have practiced it. That is what spreading shooting is about, politically--passing on the tradition, extending the franchise, and generally sowing salt in the fields where the anti-gunners grow fear, ignorance, and false promises. It is fighting, just on a generational timescale. It's the only way to win in the long term.

However, it can't happen without there being a right to pass on and a tradition to practice. That's where the fight you're talking about comes in--we play offense (finally!) in court while playing defense in the legislature so that the tradition may be practiced and passed on. Without doing that, the right dies out in a generation. If that's all we do, it takes longer but it still dies out. Only when we do both does it endure.

If you don't eat some corn today, you will starve tomorrow. If you don't plant some corn today, you will starve next year.

In the short run, I try to help out on various things. But in the long run probably the most significant thing I can do for the RKBA is raise boys who value their birthright enough to fight for it.

7x57
__________________


What do you need guns for if you are going to send your children, seven hours a day, 180 days a year to government schools? What do you need the guns for at that point?-- R. C. Sproul, Jr. (unconfirmed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulgron View Post
I know every chance I get I'm going to accuse 7x57 of being a shill for LCAV. Because I can.
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 09-25-2009, 9:04 PM
yellowfin's Avatar
yellowfin yellowfin is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 8,373
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcbrown View Post
Call it what you will. He's almost certainly right. The people who want to disarm us are very rich and very powerful. Their money and influence is their advantage.
Why is it always so mentioned that "the rich and powerful" are the enemy? Is it that we have fewer rich and powerful people than they do, or that a higher percentage of their side is such?
__________________
"You can't stop insane people from doing insane things with insane laws. That's insane!" -- Penn Jillette
Quote:
Originally Posted by indiandave View Post
In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal.
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 09-25-2009, 9:15 PM
bsim's Avatar
bsim bsim is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ventura Co.
Posts: 845
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Rich "progressives" do more damage to us than rich "pro-RKBA"ers.

Google "Bloomberg mayors against illegal guns".
__________________
NRA Life Member
SAF Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 09-25-2009, 9:32 PM
dustoff31 dustoff31 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Live in AZ, 2nd Home in So. CA
Posts: 8,187
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7x57 View Post
Wrong. It simply is a different kind, with a different timescale.

*Nothing*--no law, no Constitution, no organization, no nothing can preserve the RKBA unless the citizens value it. They cannot value it unless they have practiced it. That is what spreading shooting is about, politically--passing on the tradition, extending the franchise, and generally sowing salt in the fields where the anti-gunners grow fear, ignorance, and false promises. It is fighting, just on a generational timescale. It's the only way to win in the long term.

However, it can't happen without there being a right to pass on and a tradition to practice. That's where the fight you're talking about comes in--we play offense (finally!) in court while playing defense in the legislature so that the tradition may be practiced and passed on. Without doing that, the right dies out in a generation. If that's all we do, it takes longer but it still dies out. Only when we do both does it endure.

If you don't eat some corn today, you will starve tomorrow. If you don't plant some corn today, you will starve next year.

In the short run, I try to help out on various things. But in the long run probably the most significant thing I can do for the RKBA is raise boys who value their birthright enough to fight for it.

7x57
I understand what you are saying, of course. Education is an extremely valuable and useful activity, and in the long run, it is our only hope. I'm sure our only point of contention is terminology.
__________________
"Did I say "republic?" By God, yes, I said "republic!" Long live the glorious republic of the United States of America. Damn democracy. It is a fraudulent term used, often by ignorant persons but no less often by intellectual fakers, to describe an infamous mixture of socialism, miscegenation, graft, confiscation of property and denial of personal rights to individuals whose virtuous principles make them offensive." - Westbrook Pegler
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 09-25-2009, 10:57 PM
kcbrown's Avatar
kcbrown kcbrown is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,817
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
Why is it always so mentioned that "the rich and powerful" are the enemy? Is it that we have fewer rich and powerful people than they do, or that a higher percentage of their side is such?
Well, to be clear, the "rich and powerful" I refer to are people who have easy command of tens of billions of dollars at a minimum, and who control very large multinational corporations, banking institutions, etc. They are the "ruling class" of our time.

They appear to have gained almost complete control over the federal government as a result of controlling the vast majority of "information" people receive through "traditional" channels. They control the mass media (which is owned by a very small set of very large corporations), and any person who wishes to be elected to a national political office must be willing to do the bidding of these people, lest they simply be ignored entirely by the media (or, in the event that the person turns against them midstream, made to look very bad). People will not vote for someone they've never heard of and are reluctant to vote for someone their primary sources of information say would be a bad idea to vote for. It is my belief that Howard Dean, and the "Dean Scream", is an example of this in action -- it appears that it was very much the result of the media's selective interpretation rather than an unbiased reflection of the event itself. It may be that Dean never really stood a chance anyway, but if that's so then the "Dean Scream" media event was never really necessary.

I believe we have many fewer, if any, rich and powerful people by that definition than they do, simply because I believe there is a large subset of them that hunger for power and control (whether to retain what they have or to gain more of it), and that they are very used to their way of life. An armed populace is a potential threat to them more so than an unarmed populace, because an armed populace might not agree with what they wish to do and/or how they wish to do it and is harder to forcibly control when the chips are down.

An armed populace has more political power than an unarmed one, simply because it is harder to bully an armed populace with force (not impossible, mind you, just harder). I believe an armed populace to be an anathema for the rich and powerful. I look at the laws the U.S. government both passes and enforces and cannot help but believe that the will of the People is the last thing the government responds to. It appears to me that the will of those who run large corporations is the will the government responds to today.


I'm sure there are some "rich and powerful" as described above who believe in the rights and liberties of the people like we do, but I expect they are far outnumbered by those who don't, simply because favoring those things would run counter to the "interests" of maintaining power and control.


My apologies for being a bit more political on this subject than I like, but I see no way to explain what I'm talking about without describing some of the underpinnings. And if I come across as a tinfoil kook, well, I certainly don't wish to. My beliefs are based on the evidence I've seen, and I'm always amenable to evidence which contradicts it. I try to take the approach to these things that an unbiased scientist might. I look for explanations that fit the evidence, not evidence that fits my preconceived notions. Which is another way of saying that I try my best not to have any preconceived notions.
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 09-25-2009, 11:38 PM
Meplat's Avatar
Meplat Meplat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 6,920
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by raw24 View Post

This is really the key... How many of us will really put our lives on the line for our rights???
A whole hell of a lot of us are getting old. If we have to make the choice between doing something for our country, or fading away in a nursing home wearing diapers and drooling down our chins: What do you think I will chose?
__________________
Take not lightly liberty
To have it you must live it
And like love, don't you see
To keep it you must give it

"I will talk with you no more.
I will go now, and fight you."
(Red Cloud)

Last edited by Meplat; 09-26-2009 at 1:07 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 09-26-2009, 12:12 AM
jdberger's Avatar
jdberger jdberger is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,950
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcbrown View Post
Behind each activist (of any persuasion) you'll find tens, hundreds, or even more people who share their beliefs but are not as active in pursuing them, for whatever reason.

Want to know the numbers? Just look at the massive increase in firearm and ammunition sales that occurred after Obama took office. EACH ONE of those people is someone who believes at a minimum that THEY should have the right to own a firearm and to use it in self defense if the need arises.


Are you seriously going to try to argue that the number of such people is small?




Yet you obviously believe we have the power to win. Those two beliefs are almost directly in opposition to one another. So which one is it?




I completely agree.

There's no reason you can't be active and realistic all at the same time.

5 that bother to show up are worth a thousand who have "really strong feelings" but already committed to going fishing that day....
__________________
Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky.

90% of winning is simply showing up.

"Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green


NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #261  
Old 09-26-2009, 1:13 AM
Meplat's Avatar
Meplat Meplat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 6,920
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
Or nobody wants to be first, for fear they will be the only one and losing it all for nothing. You're a martyr if enough people understand what you're doing and why and follow up with what you're trying to accomplish if you get killed on the first try--if they don't, you're a lunatic loose cannon that's put down like a rabid dog, thrown in a hole, and forgotten.

Do you really care what care what others think? I don't. I may be "put down like a rabid dog", but never "thrown in a hole and forgotten".
__________________
Take not lightly liberty
To have it you must live it
And like love, don't you see
To keep it you must give it

"I will talk with you no more.
I will go now, and fight you."
(Red Cloud)
Reply With Quote
  #262  
Old 09-26-2009, 1:23 AM
Meplat's Avatar
Meplat Meplat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 6,920
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

This is all stuff that should be remembered when we have to write the next constitution of the United States of America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
Also it is frustrating that they do so with impunity. If you and I do something that violates a law we get punished for it, whereas absolutely nothing happens to them when they blatantly violate their own legal parameters and they can pretty much make it all up as they go along. Running up millions in legal costs to us doesn't cost a dime to them. They suffer no consequences for their actions which they know beyond a shadow of a doubt to be wrong. Government is supposed to never be above the law yet they are and with little to no fear whatsoever. I understand freedom isn't free on our end but they sure get away scot free trashing it.
__________________
Take not lightly liberty
To have it you must live it
And like love, don't you see
To keep it you must give it

"I will talk with you no more.
I will go now, and fight you."
(Red Cloud)
Reply With Quote
  #263  
Old 09-26-2009, 2:16 AM
artherd's Avatar
artherd artherd is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North SF Bay Area
Posts: 5,069
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodger View Post
I guarantee you will never see that kind of 2A freedom in CA unless there is total breakdown of the system and total anarchy ensues.

I know many will disagree with that statement, but the genie is out of the bottle here for good. Best case, we stay even.
I've been doing far better than 'staying even' for years now. And I'm not about to stop.

I'll outright bet you $1,000 that I have a GE M-134 in this state in less than a decade.

__________________
- Ben Cannon.
Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™
CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™

Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice.
Reply With Quote
  #264  
Old 09-26-2009, 2:20 AM
artherd's Avatar
artherd artherd is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North SF Bay Area
Posts: 5,069
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustoff31 View Post
Whatever gains that have been made in CA is largely, no almost exclusively, due the efforts of these people.

The reason they have suceeded is that they have used the courts and various administrative procedures and shoved it down the throats of bureaucrats and politicians. That is the only way anything changes in CA.
We've stood on the shoulders of the 35,000 giants here at CGN, and the 4million or so at NRA.

We cannot do what we do without your contributions, both in time and money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
5 that bother to show up are worth a thousand who have "really strong feelings" but already committed to going fishing that day....
+100. And we got ten times that at Nordyke's lunch alone.

It's spreading...
__________________
- Ben Cannon.
Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™
CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™

Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice.
Reply With Quote
  #265  
Old 09-26-2009, 9:48 AM
Sgt Raven's Avatar
Sgt Raven Sgt Raven is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 85/101
Posts: 2,674
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meplat View Post
A whole hell of a lot of us are getting old. We have to make the choice between doing something for our country, or fading away in a nursing home wearing diapers and drooling down our chins. What do you think I will chose?




__________________

...... you cant have no idea how little I care "

Monte (Tom Selleck) - 'Monte Walsh'

"It's not always being fast or even accurate that counts, it's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger--and I won't."

John Wayne as John Bernard (J. B.) Books in The Shootist
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old 09-26-2009, 10:36 AM
wildhawker's Avatar
wildhawker wildhawker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 14,419
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

Your pessimism ignores the profound effect of SCOTUS incorporating 2A against the states.

You do realize that once we have a recognized fundamental right to keep and bear arms (and, to take that a step further, to KBA outside the home) many legislative bodies will have far softer targets upon which to focus their energies? Frankly, the legislators will soon have to consider 2A as much as they do 1A when drafting legislation. We're never free from a duty to preserve our liberties, but one day we will work from the high ground.

Do a year-by-year contrast of CA gun laws since the late 80s: we are, indeed, better off today than at any time in that analysis. Further, we in CA (and throughout the USA) have never had such cause for optimism: Heller, McDonald, Nordyke, Palmer, Sykes, Peña, other coming cases, a strong NRA, a growing number of gun owners, an active group (also growing) of RKBA activists, the ability to lawfully own AR and AK-style rifles and pistols in California, an Obama administration that is crossing the street to walk around the gun issue, gun control supporters who are visibly frustrated and others who are simply giving up and last, but certainly not least, a means of communicating our ideas far more effectively than has ever been seen before: YOU, right here at Calguns. This list is in no way exhaustive.

So yes, I am saying we are far better off today than we were years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodger View Post
Are you saying we're far better off now than we were "years" ago?

How many years? And how are we better than staying even over that period of time?

Anyone who bets a $1000 that in ten years the gun laws in CA will be as free as they are in AZ right now will lose his money.

I do respect and admire your optimism.

But it's always one step forward and two steps back for us with these CA legislators. Easy math for tracking "progress".

I hate pessimism but I'm a realist.
__________________
Brandon Combs

I do not read private messages, and my inbox is usually full. If you need to reach me, please email me instead.

My comments are not the official position or a statement of any organization unless stated otherwise. My comments are not legal advice; if you want or need legal advice, hire a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Old 09-26-2009, 10:48 AM
tonelar's Avatar
tonelar tonelar is offline
Dinosaur
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Franpsycho
Posts: 6,022
iTrader: 115 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickofSoCal View Post
Just thinking back............here in California, have "we" pro-gunners ever stopped anything significant?
...
What is wrong with this picture? There are millions of gun owners in California! Why cant we stop anything?
Two times we've defeated handgun bans in San Francisco. The first was Feinstein's Sat Night Special pipe dream, the second was more draconian. Remember the all out ban on Handguns, Ammo and Firearm Sales attempted by Gavin and his cohorts.

I'm very proud to be a firearm owner in San Francisco... and I like how we're carrying the fight to Sacramento.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodger View Post
...
Anyone who bets a $1000 that in ten years the gun laws in CA will be as free as they are in AZ right now will lose his money...
I haven't invested $1000 in Calguns yet. But I easily have that and then some into the NRA, 2AF, CRPA etc.

A realist says a glass has water in it. A pessimist says it's half empty. I'll bet you're a glass is half empty type, right?
__________________

Last edited by tonelar; 09-26-2009 at 10:55 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #268  
Old 09-26-2009, 10:49 AM
freonr22's Avatar
freonr22 freonr22 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: San Jose
Posts: 11,850
iTrader: 28 / 100%
Default

6400 views wow.
__________________
<img src=http://calgunsfoundation.org/images/stories/San-Benito.jpg border=0 alt= />[IMG]file:///C:/Users/PCMECH%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.png[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/PCMECH%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-4.png[/IMG]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
We will win. We are right. We will never stop fighting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
They don't believe it's possible, but then Alison didn't believe there'd be 350K - 400K OLLs in CA either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by louisianagirl View Post
Our fate is ours alone to decide as long as we remain armed heavily enough to dictate it.
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Old 09-26-2009, 12:22 PM
jdberger's Avatar
jdberger jdberger is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,950
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodger View Post
Pessimist, realist, optimist, whatever.

I give to CGF, I give to NRA, I fax and e-mail to try to stop horsecrap legislation. What I believe as I do that doesn't affect the impact of those actions.

I just don't believe that ten years from now we will have the freedom in this state that is comparable to what exists right now in free states like AZ.
I'd like for you to add (to the above bolded statement): I write letters, I volunteer for CGF functions, I volunteer to pass out fliers, I recruit people to Calguns, I offer to man the CGN/CGF booth at gun shows, I introduce newbies to shooting, I volunteer for NRA events, etc.

Not everyone can do everything. I understand that. I've a busy life, too.

But if we're already turning the tide, let's not rest on our laurels.
If we're losing, let's not go down without a determined fight.
__________________
Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky.

90% of winning is simply showing up.

"Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green


NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #270  
Old 09-26-2009, 12:22 PM
dustoff31 dustoff31 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Live in AZ, 2nd Home in So. CA
Posts: 8,187
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodger View Post
I just don't believe that ten years from now we will have the freedom in this state that is comparable to what exists right now in free states like AZ.
I think the laws in CA will change, again only because change will be be forced upon them by federal courts.

I do not believe however that the attitudes and culture toward guns held by the general populace of CA will ever be comparable to what exists in free states.
__________________
"Did I say "republic?" By God, yes, I said "republic!" Long live the glorious republic of the United States of America. Damn democracy. It is a fraudulent term used, often by ignorant persons but no less often by intellectual fakers, to describe an infamous mixture of socialism, miscegenation, graft, confiscation of property and denial of personal rights to individuals whose virtuous principles make them offensive." - Westbrook Pegler
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Old 09-26-2009, 12:26 PM
wildhawker's Avatar
wildhawker wildhawker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 14,419
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

Bodger, would you agree that - if nothing else - preventing regression of gun rights in CA is equally worthy of our support and optimism?
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old 09-26-2009, 12:31 PM
wildhawker's Avatar
wildhawker wildhawker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 14,419
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

Dustoff, culture change is entirely possible given an effective strategy, a solid legal foundation and motivated activists. Interested in becoming one of those activists?
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 09-26-2009, 12:50 PM
dustoff31 dustoff31 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Live in AZ, 2nd Home in So. CA
Posts: 8,187
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Dustoff, culture change is entirely possible given an effective strategy, a solid legal foundation and motivated activists. Interested in becoming one of those activists?
Culture change may be possible, but IMHO, not at all likely in CA.
__________________
"Did I say "republic?" By God, yes, I said "republic!" Long live the glorious republic of the United States of America. Damn democracy. It is a fraudulent term used, often by ignorant persons but no less often by intellectual fakers, to describe an infamous mixture of socialism, miscegenation, graft, confiscation of property and denial of personal rights to individuals whose virtuous principles make them offensive." - Westbrook Pegler
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 09-26-2009, 1:14 PM
Meplat's Avatar
Meplat Meplat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 6,920
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Raven View Post




Extremely insightful comment.
__________________
Take not lightly liberty
To have it you must live it
And like love, don't you see
To keep it you must give it

"I will talk with you no more.
I will go now, and fight you."
(Red Cloud)
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old 09-26-2009, 1:39 PM
wildhawker's Avatar
wildhawker wildhawker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 14,419
iTrader: 84 / 100%
Default

Dustoff, can you articulate why, exactly, you feel it's unlikely? I'm curious because it is that very sentiment which provides our largest obstacle to achieving culture change. If we can identify the logical basis of your assertions we can more effectively address it going forward.

Bodger, many in LA can get a CCW right now, and shall-issue statewide is coming. We're not far away from doing away with maglocks.

Two final thoughts: "When I see it" is too late in the process- that means you're only willing to be emotionally invested (vulnerable) in concepts proven to be low/no-risk by others who were willing to be invested while it was high-risk. Lastly, I know of only a few paid activists in CA; the rest of us have full-time "day" jobs and families.
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old 09-26-2009, 2:41 PM
artherd's Avatar
artherd artherd is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North SF Bay Area
Posts: 5,069
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonelar View Post
A realist says a glass has water in it. A pessimist says it's half empty. I'll bet you're a glass is half empty type, right?
While not directed at me I'm going to respond.

I'm a fill the glass type
__________________
- Ben Cannon.
Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™
CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™

Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice.
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old 09-26-2009, 2:47 PM
artherd's Avatar
artherd artherd is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North SF Bay Area
Posts: 5,069
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustoff31 View Post
I do not believe however that the attitudes and culture toward guns held by the general populace of CA will ever be comparable to what exists in free states.
Don't be so sure. There are more guns sold in CA than in anywhere else.

"Steven Buford, program manager for the department's Bureau of Firearms, said about 1,000 guns normally are sold in California each day. Two thousand were sold Tuesday, and 2,400 were purchased Saturday, he said." That's mumble 400k guns a year. Out of mumble 4million nationally. This is discounting the obama boost.

10% of gun sales in the COUNTRY take place in CA!

Nationwide we are up overall yearly:
__________________
- Ben Cannon.
Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™
CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™

Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice.
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Old 09-26-2009, 2:48 PM
jdberger's Avatar
jdberger jdberger is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,950
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodger View Post
I wish I could do more, and become a full-on activist. Running a business 60 plus hours per week prevents that right now.


- snip -
You can volunteer to be a distribution point for flyers.

You're not the only one with a busy schedule.

You can research and gather the contact info for pro-gun businesses and post them. Others can write letters to them (but at least you're doing the ground work).

We need contact info for all the folks on the AR15.COM vendor list. We need to know if they'll agree to include a "VETO AB962 and SB 585" flyer in every order they send out.

Can you help?
__________________
Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky.

90% of winning is simply showing up.

"Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green


NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old 09-26-2009, 2:49 PM
artherd's Avatar
artherd artherd is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North SF Bay Area
Posts: 5,069
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodger View Post
I just don't believe we will get to a point in ten years where I can mount a GE mini-gun on my SUV. Or get a CCW in the City of Los Angeles. Or remove the Raddlock from my Bushmaster.
I'll have the last two for you in 5.

(I have #2 for you in months if not now

5 years ago, did you ever conceive that you'd be able to have a Bushmaster at all?
__________________
- Ben Cannon.
Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.™
CoFounder - GeoVario™, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calguns™

Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice.
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old 09-26-2009, 3:38 PM
Can'thavenuthingood's Avatar
Can'thavenuthingood Can'thavenuthingood is offline
C3 Leader
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lemoore
Posts: 5,172
iTrader: 126 / 100%
Default

This ought to be cross posted to other forums across the nation. Then they can see the importance of the fight we are waging here.

Except for the bi annual excursion to The High Road I don't go anywhere else but Calguns so I don't know what other gun forums are out there.

Vick

Quote:
Originally Posted by artherd View Post
Don't be so sure. There are more guns sold in CA than in anywhere else.

"Steven Buford, program manager for the department's Bureau of Firearms, said about 1,000 guns normally are sold in California each day. Two thousand were sold Tuesday, and 2,400 were purchased Saturday, he said." That's mumble 400k guns a year. Out of mumble 4million nationally. This is discounting the obama boost.

10% of gun sales in the COUNTRY take place in CA!

Nationwide we are up overall yearly:
__________________


"Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more." (George Patton)

Calguns T-shirts, hats and stickers

CALGUNS.NET logo stickers and patches (3 inch) are here

The Gulag Archipelago - Online read .pdf
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 4:55 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.