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  #241  
Old 03-24-2009, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MP5 View Post
Gene I just read your bio...WOW! Youngest NASDAQ CEO ever! Most impressive, Thanks for taking up our cause!

http://www.hoffmang.com/about.html

QFT, Wow I am impressed and thankful we have you in this community.
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  #242  
Old 03-25-2009, 6:01 PM
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What about the AG's response? When might we expect to hear that?
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  #243  
Old 03-25-2009, 8:24 PM
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Government agencies usually take a while (my guess would be 90-120 days from submission) since they have a "chain of command" they have to go through, especially when it is something like this. You can bet the Anti's are trying to find every way possible to "weasel" their way out of this one!
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  #244  
Old 03-25-2009, 8:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
I came out here and experienced the state placing its nose in places it shouldn't be and that accelerated my interest.
Interesting. I never belonged to the NRA or had anything to do with gun rights until I came here. The frog doesn't get slow-cooked if you come here from America, and it tends to wake one up to where everything will go if it isn't stopped.

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I know every chance I get I'm going to accuse 7x57 of being a shill for LCAV. Because I can.
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  #245  
Old 03-26-2009, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Shotgun Man View Post
What about the AG's response? When might we expect to hear that?
OAL has 60 days from submission. BoF then gets 30 days (from memory). Then the public gets 30 days, and finally CGF gets 15 days.

7x57: If you move to the frying pan, you tend to notice that you're the frog...

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  #246  
Old 03-26-2009, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
7x57: If you move to the frying pan, you tend to notice that you're the frog...
Exactly.

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  #247  
Old 03-27-2009, 5:05 PM
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This is all well and good, and certainly necessary, but I hope we don't loose sight of the big picture. Arguing over the minutia of a rule or reg is just that, minute. While necessary, I think it might not be a bad idea to ask the big questions first, like; "How is this any of your business?" I still haven't heard a really good answer for that one. Has anyone?

Last edited by NickM1; 03-27-2009 at 5:06 PM.. Reason: I wanted to make sense.
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  #248  
Old 03-27-2009, 6:25 PM
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This is all well and good, and certainly necessary, but I hope we don't loose sight of the big picture. Arguing over the minutia of a rule or reg is just that, minute. While necessary, I think it might not be a bad idea to ask the big questions first, like; "How is this any of your business?" I still haven't heard a really good answer for that one. Has anyone?
The strongest buildings will crumble when their foundations are picked away a grain at a time.
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  #249  
Old 03-27-2009, 6:43 PM
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The strongest buildings will crumble when their foundations are picked away a grain at a time.
This is true, so why let them at the foundation. They have no business there to begin with, that is where the fight should be. We're trying to have them justify each pick at the foundation, when we should be having them justify their presence anywhere near it. Besides, if they're already picking away a the foundation, the time for argument has past. You can try to prevent infestation any way you want, but once the termites are in there you only have one option.
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  #250  
Old 03-27-2009, 7:59 PM
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This is true, so why let them at the foundation. They have no business there to begin with, that is where the fight should be. We're trying to have them justify each pick at the foundation, when we should be having them justify their presence anywhere near it. Besides, if they're already picking away a the foundation, the time for argument has past. You can try to prevent infestation any way you want, but once the termites are in there you only have one option.
What you're suggesting has been talked about many times. The very very smart people "in the know" recommend very strongly against this. We must pick at their arguments and gain small wins and build win upon win upon win in order to fight this fight.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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  #251  
Old 03-27-2009, 9:26 PM
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Your foundation analogy isn't very apt actually.

We want to box them in because each decision that goes our way limits their ability to restrict us further in the future.

Also, it's a heck of a lot easier to destroy a law that is clearly unconstitutionally enforced even if it were not a Second Amendment violation too.

Finally, which would you rather have. Incremental progress that lets you own and use more firearms while we build for the bigger strikes or would you like to wait years and years for a grand slam (that might not come without boxing the antigun side in.

Don't forget that the California courts are generally hostile to us...

-Gene
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  #252  
Old 03-28-2009, 12:19 PM
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Can you dumb it down a little further for those of us who majored in business? MBA = "Minimal Brain Activity." Use drawings if possible, and fewer words. Thanks.
what about using flash cards???
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  #253  
Old 03-28-2009, 6:05 PM
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what about using flash cards???
Flannelgraph.

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  #254  
Old 03-28-2009, 10:45 PM
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engineer = flow chart
MBA = powerpoint
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  #255  
Old 03-29-2009, 12:01 PM
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engineer = flow chart
MBA = powerpoint
Programmer = flowchart
Industrial Engineer = blueprint specs
Electrical Engineer = schematic diagram
MBA = powerpoint
Executives = pretty pictures
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  #256  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:43 AM
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Programmer = flowchart
Industrial Engineer = blueprint specs
Electrical Engineer = schematic diagram
MBA = powerpoint
Executives = pretty pictures
Instrument/Controls Engineer = P&ID
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  #257  
Old 03-30-2009, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BillCA View Post
Programmer = flowchart
Everybody knows programmers make the flowchart after they write the code.

On second thought, that's much closer to the way legislation really goes than I had meant to portray!
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  #258  
Old 03-31-2009, 1:49 AM
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Everybody knows programmers make the flowchart after they write the code.
Of course. That's the only way they're accurate!

I'm unsure how BoF could claim the "capacity to accept" when a fixed magazine is in place - unless they argue that once the latch is maniupulated, the rifle then "becomes capable" of accepting a magazine.

But since it requires tools to remove the existing magazine, that magazine is fixed as per prior rulings. Thus, to argue that once the magazine has been removed - for servicing, reloading or unloading - the rifle can now "accept a detachable magazine" fails the logic test. Once the magazine is inserted and properly locked into place, it becomes "fixed" in place, requiring the tool to remove it.
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  #259  
Old 03-31-2009, 4:34 PM
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...DOJ... fails the logic test.
...Exactly!
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  #260  
Old 04-08-2009, 6:47 PM
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Well, that was a riveting hour and a half of my time reading and digesting all of this.

Thanks to CGF, I appreciate what you all do not just for the now, but for the rights of my children.
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  #261  
Old 04-08-2009, 10:02 PM
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We're about 2 weeks away from the next major milestone on this.

-Gene
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  #262  
Old 04-08-2009, 11:16 PM
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  #263  
Old 04-24-2009, 1:55 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Nordyke gave me reason to reach out to OAL this week. In so doing I found out some good news and some bad news.

The good news is that they are still reviewing the Capacity to Accept underground regulation and their deadline to act on that is this Friday if I'm reading the calendar correctly. I had asked them to consider that firearms regulations are subject to heightened scrutiny in both cases post Nordyke and I now believe that they will in the CTA petition.
It's Friday




Sooooooooooooo.... ?
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  #264  
Old 04-24-2009, 4:47 PM
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I must have miscounted the 60 days. The petition is still pending so it's likely to be published one way or the other by next Friday (May 1.)

-Gene
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  #265  
Old 04-29-2009, 1:54 PM
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I'm anxiously waiting on this.
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  #266  
Old 04-29-2009, 2:16 PM
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Gene... here's their determination. It was "published" on the 27th. Please tell me that this isn't the one you were waiting for...

http://www.oal.ca.gov/pdfs/determina...ination_10.pdf
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  #267  
Old 04-29-2009, 2:36 PM
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Gene... here's their determination. It was "published" on the 27th. Please tell me that this isn't the one you were waiting for...

http://www.oal.ca.gov/pdfs/determina...ination_10.pdf
doh!
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  #268  
Old 04-29-2009, 2:49 PM
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Good thing you didn't take my bet!
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  #269  
Old 04-29-2009, 7:48 PM
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bummer

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  #270  
Old 04-29-2009, 8:34 PM
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This seems pretty irrelevant in the big picture.
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  #271  
Old 04-29-2009, 9:54 PM
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What does this letter mean? Is there now two laws/regulations regarding a detachable magazine? One basically saying using a tool to detach a magazine is ok, the other saying different? Sorry if I didn't get it right, please explain.
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  #272  
Old 04-29-2009, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!! View Post
Good thing you didn't take my bet!
Your bet would have been mooted.

The claim is that it's not an underground regulation. The best part is that OAL opines that the law is "unclear" and "unable to declare ... legal or illegal."

Think that through and thank the OAL.

-Gene
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  #273  
Old 04-29-2009, 11:51 PM
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So OAL bows out because the "capacity to accept" is not a regulation. Is OAL basically saying that DOJ's "capicity to accept" letter is irrelevant, non-binding, or doesn't really say anything new? That's the way it reads.

Still seems to me that per 12276.1 an OLL with BB or similar mechanism that requires a tool to remove a magazine cannot accept anything "detachable" unless the receiver was taken apart and rebuilt with a mag release installed. Any legal minds want to weigh in?

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  #274  
Old 04-29-2009, 11:59 PM
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OAL's response changes nothing about the legal interpretation of "detachable magazine."

OAL's argument is that Alison was so inept as to actually say nothing in her letter.

-Gene
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  #275  
Old 04-30-2009, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
OAL's response changes nothing about the legal interpretation of "detachable magazine."

OAL's argument is that Alison was so inept as to actually say nothing in her letter.

-Gene

Thanks, now I feel vindicated.
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  #276  
Old 04-30-2009, 12:05 AM
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I love that broad....
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  #277  
Old 04-30-2009, 6:54 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Your bet would have been mooted.

The claim is that it's not an underground regulation. The best part is that OAL opines that the law is "unclear" and "unable to declare ... legal or illegal."

Think that through and thank the OAL.

-Gene
I figured that you'd be here with the spin that this it's actually helpful that OAL decided that DOJ did not "interpret" the assault weapon law by observing that the law was open to interpretation when it comes to semi-automatic, centerfire rifles with Bullet Button or Prince 50 devices. You really couldn't lose either way: either it's an underground regulation, or it's not an underground regulation because the law is unclear and this is what you really wanted all along. Well done! Anyway, I don't think the "lack of clarity" in the assault weapon law, as applied to Bullet Button or Prince 50 rifles, gets you what you think it does.

Last edited by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!; 04-30-2009 at 7:08 AM..
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  #278  
Old 04-30-2009, 7:06 AM
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Still seems to me that per 12276.1 an OLL with BB or similar mechanism that requires a tool to remove a magazine cannot accept anything "detachable" unless the receiver was taken apart and rebuilt with a mag release installed. Any legal minds want to weigh in?

The OAL letter affirms that it is an open question whether a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle with a Bullet Button or Prince 50 device has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. DOJ did not come down on one side or the other so OAL said there was no "interpretation" for purposes of the underground regulation challenge. The letter doesn't validate the literal construction of 5469(a) argument...except maybe by repeating the flawed analysis in the DOJ letter. I think they did a favor by not issuing a more thoughtful and thorough determination.

Last edited by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!; 04-30-2009 at 7:08 AM..
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  #279  
Old 04-30-2009, 8:18 AM
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Can somebody clarify who has the authority to legally interpret "detachable magazine"?

From everything I can tell following these threads, DOJ is not taking a stance and the only way to figure out if it's legal or not is to go to the range, drop a magazine w/a tool & bullet button, get arrested, and then see if the local DA will prosecute or not.

Gene - you had mentioned that there have been a few recent arrests, but no prosectutions. Can you give any additional information indicating if the individuals were arrested at a range, or if they were stopped for a traffic violation and then arrested?
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Old 04-30-2009, 8:26 AM
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If your read the petition it is in there

It is defined by 11 CCR Section 5469:

Quote:
“detachable magazine” as “any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required.”
I could be wrong but my understanding is that there is no "authority to interpert".

I think if you go to the OLL FAQ or search there are some "how not to get arrested" sections.
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Last edited by rkt88edmo; 04-30-2009 at 8:28 AM..
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