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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-21-2009, 3:36 PM
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Post After Nordyke, what is next? My thoughts...

Hello All,

I may be a newb, but I've thought a bit about what the next steps after Nordyke should be. Maybe the "right people" could tell me if I have guessed right?

I see the next step as a 5 pronged operation. The prongs are pretty much independent so they could be done in parallel, other then the fact that we might not have enough legal power to handle that much.

Prong 1: CA AW laws. We find someone with a squeaky-clean perfect record. This person applies for an AW reg to buy 4 AWs: (1) A listed but very popular AW (Colt AR), (2) A AW configured, but very popular off list rifle (any OLL AR works), (3) An AW configured, but very popular and off list shotgun (A popular semi auto pistol gripped AND collapsing stock shotgun). (4) a Non-scary looking but popular and threaded barrel semi-auto pistol. This person gets denied for the AW permit, then sues under now incorporated Heller.

Prong 2: CA CCW laws. 2 possibilities here:

* We find someone with a squeaky-clean perfect record that has no "good cause" other then 2nd amendment rights. This person applies for a CCW and gets denied, then sues under now incorporated 2nd amendment right to bear arms.

* We find someone with a squeaky-clean perfect record that has no "good cause" other then 2nd amendment rights. This person then sues for the ability to loaded-open carry under under now incorporated 2nd amendment right to bear arms. The state legislator quickly passes shall-issue CCW to prevent mass-open carrying.

Prong 3: CA "Hi-Capacity" magazine laws. We find someone with a squeaky-clean perfect record. This person then makes some documented (but legal) move that would lead to buying a high-caacity magazine such as buying a NON-AW looking rifle that comes stock with a high capacity magazine, such as high end 22. To keep prong 3 and prong 1 separate, this rifle must be long, wood stocked, and completely non-scary looking. The person after receiving the rifle without the normal magazine that usually comes with it then sues.

Prong 4: Halting new anti-gun legislation. We sue under now-incorporated Heller to stop any new anti's moves.

Prong 5: NFA rules. This one is a bit more tricky.... We find someone with a squeaky-clean perfect record. This person then applies for a NFA stamp for something very popular, but completely non-scary looking, such as a 10" barreled 10/22 in a wood stock. This person then gets denied and sues. We would need to show that these items are popular firearms under Heller, and thus can't be banned.

I'll volunteer to be one of the guinea pigs if it is needed. Although, it might be better if the volunteers were minorities and or women??

How does this look for a guess as to how we might proceed next?
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Last edited by unusedusername; 04-21-2009 at 3:42 PM..
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  #2  
Old 04-21-2009, 3:41 PM
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i have a super clean record... soo super clean even the gov said it was super clean
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  #3  
Old 04-21-2009, 4:51 PM
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i have a super clean record... soo super clean even the gov said it was super clean
me too passed two fbi checks and im black. you know how the gov is always tryin to keep a brotha down
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Old 04-21-2009, 4:56 PM
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I like your thinking and in addition to the miniority/women maybe it would be good for them to be retired military/LE or "low income"
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Old 04-21-2009, 5:01 PM
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NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...

Handguns have the most protection right now so you're going to see things move from handguns out. Don't worry though, the end of the AW laws are very near and dear to many hearts here.

-Gene
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Old 04-21-2009, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...
I'm going to have to quote that...

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Old 04-21-2009, 5:04 PM
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I am holding you to this -

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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...

Handguns have the most protection right now so you're going to see things move from handguns out. Don't worry though, the end of the AW laws are very near and dear to many hearts here.

-Gene
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Old 04-21-2009, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...

Handguns have the most protection right now so you're going to see things move from handguns out. Don't worry though, the end of the AW laws are very near and dear to many hearts here.

-Gene
You need to come hang out at my bar....
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Old 04-21-2009, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by WokMaster1 View Post
You need to come hang out at my bar....
Haha, I was going to say the same thing. I know a couple bars in SF....

Great QOTD though.
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  #10  
Old 04-21-2009, 5:53 PM
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Haha, I was going to say the same thing. I know a couple bars in SF....
He said GIRLS
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Old 04-21-2009, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...


-Gene
We must go to different bars?
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:01 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...
One out of a hundred times you will win big time though
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...
I saw this exact thing happen once, in New Orleans no less. He went down in flames.
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...

Handguns have the most protection right now so you're going to see things move from handguns out. Don't worry though, the end of the AW laws are very near and dear to many hearts here.

-Gene
I hope the first things to go are the AW ban and may issue gets turned into shall issue. For some reason, I think these would be the easiest to change.
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:09 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Don't worry though, the end of the AW laws are very near and dear to many hearts here
When you say the end of a AW ban is near are we talking months? I would like to make some buys in the near future
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The same way they enforce all the rest of the BS laws. Only criminals are exempt, while the honest obey.
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be.
And very much because, enthusiasm for NFA stuff aside -- politically the "sour grapes" backlash I hear from anti-gunnies about Heller is that it will lead to an overturn of the NFA.

This plays directly into the the misconception amongst soccer moms that machine guns are identical to "sport utility rifles."

We gotta work hard against that. We're never going to convince soccer moms that machine guns should be legal (even as they are actually legal under the NFA!). IMO better to quietly work for equal application of the NFA across all 50 states...

--Neill
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tombinghamthegreat View Post
When you say the end of a AW ban is near are we talking months? I would like to make some buys in the near future
Years. Plural.
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:29 PM
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All,

Not trying to get in to a technical discussion, but I honestly don't think that NFA weapons are a big deal...

The military is getting away from full-auto anyhow. When I was a .50 and 25mm gunner, they trained us to use 3-5 round bursts MAX, and I can do that with an OLL.

Take the gun laws in Arizona, for example, and you can build a perfectly legal militia that ANY army would consider a threat.

We just need to ditch our Bullet Buttons and get our Hi-caps back...

Respectfully,

Ron
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  #19  
Old 04-21-2009, 6:34 PM
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Realistic CA action items, in the most logical order are 1) Safe List, 2) CCW Shall vs. May Issue, 3) Loaded Open Carry, 4) Hi-cap mag ban and AW Ban and 5) 50 bmg ban.

According to my crystal ball, the outcome will be as follows:

1) Safe list held to be unconstitutional by SCOTUS, CA responds by implementing a revised safe list that looks more like a safety regulation and less like a disguised gun ban (i.e., bans 14% of handguns, not 86% of handguns) and fits within the parameters of the decision striking down the original safe list.

2) CCW may issue is held to be constitutional by SCOTUS, so long as there is a fair and objective set of criteria that are not being arbitrarily applied. CA responds by implementing specific guidelines.

3) Banning loaded open carry outside of "sensitive spaces" is held to be unconstitutional by the SCOTUS (dicta in Heller already indicates loaded open carry is protected by the 2A). CA responds by taking a broad view of "sensitive spaces" to cover all governmental/county properties, gun free zones etc.

4) Hi-cap mag ban is held to be constitutional by the SCOTUS. AW ban is held unconstitutional by the SCOTUS because it bans the AR-15 and other popular firearms that are in common use and are therefore not "dangerous and unusual". CA responds by permitting AW's to be registered.

5) 50 bmg ban is declared constitutional by the SCOTUS because 50 bmg rifles are not in common use by the public and are "dangerous and unusual".
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:37 PM
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forget nordyke... after reading this thread i think i need to go bar hopping with some fellow cal gunners!
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GaffSD View Post

We just need to ditch our Bullet Buttons and get our Hi-caps back...

Respectfully,

Ron
That's exactly what I'm hoping for too.
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:40 PM
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I found my new sig line quote
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:43 PM
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Years. Plural.
On what do you base this estimate?
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:54 PM
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Default I have a question or two....

Since the 9th Circuit "abrogated" its decision in Hickman v. Block, does that mean Hickman won and can now go pick up his CCW from Baca?

Are there any Loaded Gun convictions that had their 2nd Amendment appeals tossed out due to Hickman?
What happens to their cases/convictions/PC12031?
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Old 04-21-2009, 6:54 PM
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On what do you base this estimate?

um...two weeks?
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Old 04-21-2009, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tombinghamthegreat View Post
When you say the end of a AW ban is near are we talking months? I would like to make some buys in the near future
I believe you misread his statement. He said the end of the AW ban is near AND dear TO many hearts....not that it was near.
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Old 04-21-2009, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Calguns2000 View Post

4) Hi-cap mag ban is held to be constitutional by the SCOTUS. AW ban is held unconstitutional by the SCOTUS because it bans the AR-15 and other popular firearms that are in common use and are therefore not "dangerous and unusual". CA responds by permitting AW's to be registered.

5) 50 bmg ban is declared constitutional by the SCOTUS because 50 bmg rifles are not in common use by the public and are "dangerous and unusual".
Aren't Hi-caps and 50BMG in common use by the public in alot of free states?
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Old 04-21-2009, 7:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G30 Steve View Post
Since the 9th Circuit "abrogated" its decision in Hickman v. Block, does that mean Hickman won and can now go pick up his CCW from Baca?

Are there any Loaded Gun convictions that had their 2nd Amendment appeals tossed out due to Hickman?
What happens to their cases/convictions/PC12031?
Hickman might file a new case; otherwise, no.

All of those would have to be refiled - nothing is automatic.
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Old 04-21-2009, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calguns2000 View Post
Realistic CA action items, in the most logical order are 1) Safe List, 2) CCW Shall vs. May Issue, 3) Loaded Open Carry, 4) Hi-cap mag ban and AW Ban and 5) 50 bmg ban.

According to my crystal ball, the outcome will be as follows:

1) Safe list held to be unconstitutional by SCOTUS, CA responds by implementing a revised safe list that looks more like a safety regulation and less like a disguised gun ban (i.e., bans 14% of handguns, not 86% of handguns) and fits within the parameters of the decision striking down the original safe list.

2) CCW may issue is held to be constitutional by SCOTUS, so long as there is a fair and objective set of criteria that are not being arbitrarily applied. CA responds by implementing specific guidelines.

3) Banning loaded open carry outside of "sensitive spaces" is held to be unconstitutional by the SCOTUS (dicta in Heller already indicates loaded open carry is protected by the 2A). CA responds by taking a broad view of "sensitive spaces" to cover all governmental/county properties, gun free zones etc.

4) Hi-cap mag ban is held to be constitutional by the SCOTUS. AW ban is held unconstitutional by the SCOTUS because it bans the AR-15 and other popular firearms that are in common use and are therefore not "dangerous and unusual". CA responds by permitting AW's to be registered.

5) 50 bmg ban is declared constitutional by the SCOTUS because 50 bmg rifles are not in common use by the public and are "dangerous and unusual".
Business must be booming for you huh?
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Old 04-21-2009, 9:33 PM
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He said GIRLS
Haha,

high 5 on the sweet burn.

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Old 04-21-2009, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex..
Who says you can't combine the two?
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Old 04-21-2009, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex..
Who says you can't combine the two?
Well... a suppressor might keep the noise down.
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Old 04-21-2009, 9:53 PM
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Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
Who says you can't combine the two?
I want to watch you try the pick up line...

-Gene
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Old 04-21-2009, 9:54 PM
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I want to watch you try the pick up line...

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Old 04-21-2009, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaffSD

We just need to ditch our Bullet Buttons and get our Hi-caps back...

Respectfully,

Ron
I just await the day I can utilize a standard mag release
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  #36  
Old 04-22-2009, 7:00 AM
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Mulay El Raisuli Mulay El Raisuli is offline
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Originally Posted by G30 Steve View Post
Since the 9th Circuit "abrogated" its decision in Hickman v. Block, does that mean Hickman won and can now go pick up his CCW from Baca?

Are there any Loaded Gun convictions that had their 2nd Amendment appeals tossed out due to Hickman?
What happens to their cases/convictions/PC12031?

Real good questions. As noted elsewhere, nothing is automatic, but I can see challenges being successful.

Hickman would have to re-apply.

My understanding of Const. law is that once a law is struck down as unconstitutional, all convictions under that law are void. Again, nothing is automatic. A request for review must be made. An example of this is MIRANDA. All those convicted w/o having a lawyer before the Decision, & who requested review, got reversals.

As for 12031 I can see a challenge being successful. IMHO, this is THE important issue to be decided. While doing away with laws regarding BBs, OLLs, 'evil features' & the like matter, what matters most is getting something into our hands & getting it here ASAP.

All I can do is hope that the Right People think so also.

The Raisuli
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  #37  
Old 04-22-2009, 7:35 AM
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Who says you can't combine the two?
I don't know, but I just got a new sig line.
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  #38  
Old 04-22-2009, 8:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Calguns2000 View Post
4) Hi-cap mag ban is held to be constitutional by the SCOTUS. AW ban is held unconstitutional by the SCOTUS because it bans the AR-15 and other popular firearms that are in common use and are therefore not "dangerous and unusual". CA responds by permitting AW's to be registered.

5) 50 bmg ban is declared constitutional by the SCOTUS because 50 bmg rifles are not in common use by the public and are "dangerous and unusual".
You're thinking too specifically.

First off, there are many reasons that the ban on large-capacity magazines is unconstitutional. It's arbitrary and capricious, which the Supreme Court said is bad. They are also EXTREMELY common (I would say probably more common than 10 or less mags).

We're not going to get AR15's back because AR15's are popular firearms. We're going to get them back along with AK's and every other rifle with features in CA because a semi-automatic firearm is the single most popular kind of firearm on the planet. AR15's are absolutely no different than semi-automatic hunting rifles (to take a play from the other side), therefore banning them is arbitrary and capricious.

Can we ban the SCAR because it's not popular and few are out there? No, of course not. It's simply yet another semi-automatic hunting rifle in an ugly configuration. But since semi-automatics are popular, we cannot ban them.

For these reasons we get the .50bmg back in CA. Bolt-action and semi-automatic rifles are extremely popular, and the ban is arbitrary and capricious. The .50bmg ban does not ban the firearm based on caliber or power, it bans it based on specific cartridge dimensions that only apply to one single cartridge that has a bad name. .510DTC is in almost all ways identical to .50BMG, but it is legal. More proof that the ban is arbitrary.

The .50bmg, large-cap magazine, and "Assault weapon" bans cannot stand as there are too many "arbitrary and capricious" holes in them that cannot easily be plugged by an anti-gun legislature.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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Last edited by CHS; 04-22-2009 at 10:34 AM..
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  #39  
Old 04-22-2009, 9:25 AM
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You are correct. Alas, someone will have to expend the time and money to hire a skilled attorney (who is quite busy right now) and file suits to get each of these reversed.
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  #40  
Old 04-22-2009, 9:59 AM
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Darn it. . . I had a good one, but in the interest of not being killed by Bruce I have removed it. . . Maybe you all could read my mind. . . 626.9. . . No more. . .
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