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  #601  
Old 04-11-2009, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MudBug View Post
This thread is definately the best resource for the 450b on the net. THe only problem is that actually getting the info out of this thread can be a pain in the butt since the only way to do it is by reading the whole thing.

So I'm wondering... I have some webspace that I have not been using and could set up a dedicated 450B forum, but it wouldn't be any use unless those of you here that have done so much wanted to drag all your testing, tips, and data over to the site, would you guys be interested in this?

I don't anticipate the forum being a high traffic madhouse just because the 450b has a limited user base, so it wouldn't be hard to run.


Whatchoo guys think?
Hey, I bet it's easier for people to read the whole thing than it would be for them to go it on their own!

But I know what you mean MudBug by it being a pain in the butt, I've gone back through the whole thing a couple of times just to find something one of the others had reported.

What I would like to see is a compilation of the information that's been posted with a wikipedia twist, people able to add to and edit information as we learn and grow.

Is that possible, is that something you could put together?
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  #602  
Old 04-11-2009, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by volt View Post
Sounds Great but I'am new and have little to add.

I just got my second AR it's a 16in. 450 bushmaster on a Rock river lower

2 stage trigger.

This thread is very good the best I have found. and your right it's hard to

find the right information with out reading it over and over!

I want to work on 200gr JFP .451 loads to keep cost down.

I will add results as experience increases.
For what it's worth, I did some playing with 200gr encapsulated SWC's using LilGun.

43grs, avg fps 2483
44grs, avg fps 2495
45grs, avg fps 2542
46grs, avg fps 2587

2-4" groups
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  #603  
Old 04-11-2009, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BD1 View Post

I'm curious how much bullet jump you guys have experienced so far?
Earlier in the thread I read of a modified Lee FCD being used to place a solid crimp farther back on the case. How has that worked out?
I get very little bullet jump now that I've been adding the secondary crimp to the Barnes bullets.

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I've got a couple of other questions as well. How high above the bore are you mounting your optics?
My scope is a full 2.8" above the bore. I think I need lower mounts!

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How is brass life, particularly for you guys who are pushing the envelope a little?
My brass has held up well over 10 reloadings each, in fact I haven't had one split or fail yet, but I am wondering how the crimping is going to effect them.

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And how are you dealing with recoil? I'll need to add a little length of pull to this rifle. I shoot my HP AR with my nose right on the charging handle. I suspect that's not gonna be a smart plan with the .450B. Any good experiences with a particular recoil pad?
BD
You do not want your nose or eye any where close to a solid part of the gun. My current scope has 5" of eye relief, that's plenty. My earlier scope had about 2.5" of relief, it and my eyebrow met a couple of times. My stock has a .5" pad on it. I only begin to see the pattern on the back of that pad imprinted in my shoulder after about 70 rounds.
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  #604  
Old 04-11-2009, 5:47 PM
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Thanks Slash2

I have some W296 on hand I'll try it with 200gr JFP Montana gold bullets

will let you know how it works.
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  #605  
Old 04-11-2009, 8:46 PM
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Hey, I bet it's easier for people to read the whole thing than it would be for them to go it on your own!

But I know what you mean MudBug by it being a pain in the butt, I've gone back through the whole thing a couple of times just to find something one of the others had reported.

What I would like to see is a compilation of the information that's been posted with a wikipedia twist, people able to add to and edit information as we learn and grow.

Is that possible, is that something you could put together?
I may be able to add some kind of Wiki functionality, not sure yet, but I was thinking of a reloading database, a "Tips and tricks" section with "What worked" and "What didn't work" subsections so people could see what has been tried. Things like that.
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  #606  
Old 04-12-2009, 8:22 AM
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Slash,
What are you using for the "secondary" crimp?

BD
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  #607  
Old 04-12-2009, 8:54 AM
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Slash,
What are you using for the "secondary" crimp?

BD
Jeez, this tread needs an index!

For secondary crimp see page 37-50.

Also search this thread for crimp.
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  #608  
Old 04-12-2009, 12:08 PM
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Thanks Slash, This thread does need an index. By the time you've read all the way through it, it's tough to remember where along the way you found any specific thing.
BD
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  #609  
Old 04-16-2009, 5:45 PM
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Slash, My Lee 45-70 FCD arrived today. How did you get the collet out of the die to shorten the crimping section?

BD
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  #610  
Old 04-16-2009, 11:36 PM
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hey guys i finally got some powder and my dies i would like to know what primers you guys are using with h110. small rifle? i would assume so but maybe small rifle magnum primers. i have seen a lot of powder data but pimer choice was hard to come by in this thread.
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  #611  
Old 04-17-2009, 1:17 AM
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In Hornady's Data they use Winchester Small Rifle. That's what I've been using.
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  #612  
Old 04-17-2009, 5:25 AM
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Slash, My Lee 45-70 FCD arrived today. How did you get the collet out of the die to shorten the crimping section?

BD
I chucked the end of the collet that sticks out of the housing up in my lathe so that the housing was smack up against the jaws of the chuck, then I screwed the nut that is on the housing tight against the chuck jaws. Further tightening will force the housing away from the chuck and off of the collet.

If you don't have a lathe you could use a vise with a couple of chunks of wood to protect the collet end. Or vise grips, a C clamp, somebody with a really string grip, you get the picture.
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  #613  
Old 04-17-2009, 7:46 AM
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Originally Posted by chestpubes2ballfro View Post
hey guys i finally got some powder and my dies i would like to know what primers you guys are using with h110. small rifle? i would assume so but maybe small rifle magnum primers. i have seen a lot of powder data but pimer choice was hard to come by in this thread.
I have used primarily WSR's. I had a good supply. I did have some CCI SRM's and tried those with Lil'Gun and a 300 gr. bullet. My velocities with the CCI's were 100 to 150 feet per second less that with the Winchesters. If hornady is using winchesters -- it is for a very good reason. Also note that on Hornady's web site they have loading data for the FTX bullet and say that Lil'Gun is the powder of choice. Go ahead and burn up the H110, but I really like Lil'Gun.
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  #614  
Old 04-17-2009, 7:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Slash2 View Post
I chucked the end of the collet that sticks out of the housing up in my lathe so that the housing was smack up against the jaws of the chuck, then I screwed the nut that is on the housing tight against the chuck jaws. Further tightening will force the housing away from the chuck and off of the collet.

If you don't have a lathe you could use a vise with a couple of chunks of wood to protect the collet end. Or vise grips, a C clamp, somebody with a really string grip, you get the picture.
I just put the die in my reloading press and punched the collet out with a proper fitted wood dowel. It is just a snap ring that holds it in.
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  #615  
Old 04-17-2009, 7:53 AM
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I just put the die in my reloading press and punched the collet out with a proper fitted wood dowel. It is just a snap ring that holds it in.
Much easier!

When it comes to good info on this thread, Siringo is the "go to" guy!
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  #616  
Old 04-17-2009, 8:22 PM
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Much easier!

When it comes to good info on this thread, Siringo is the "go to" guy!
Thanks Slash!
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  #617  
Old 04-18-2009, 1:03 PM
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Thanks to both of you. The press/dowel option is something I can pull off.
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Old 04-18-2009, 1:12 PM
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Unfortunately, with the current primer shortage I'm limited to the stash of Remington 7 1/2s that I have on hand. We'll see what the chrony tells me about them if my lower ever shows up.

I slugged the bore and throat yesterday. .451 bore with just a scant .10 long .453 diameter throat. Looking down the tube from the breech you could mistake this for a 1911 barrel.

I think there's all kinds of cast bullet designs out there that will shoot in the .450B I probably have molds for 5 or 6 that will work. Quickload is telling me that a 300 grainer at 2,000 fps should be possible without going over the saami max psi. That would do anything I need to get done.
BD
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Old 04-20-2009, 8:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BD1 View Post
Unfortunately, with the current primer shortage I'm limited to the stash of Remington 7 1/2s that I have on hand. We'll see what the chrony tells me about them if my lower ever shows up.

I slugged the bore and throat yesterday. .451 bore with just a scant .10 long .453 diameter throat. Looking down the tube from the breech you could mistake this for a 1911 barrel.

I think there's all kinds of cast bullet designs out there that will shoot in the .450B I probably have molds for 5 or 6 that will work. Quickload is telling me that a 300 grainer at 2,000 fps should be possible without going over the saami max psi. That would do anything I need to get done.
BD

Would you draw us a schematic of the Slug you did.
Thanks Parker
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  #620  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:44 AM
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Seeing's how small rifle primers are non exitent. I think it's time to resurrect the 284 to 450B case project. I have a good supply of large rifle primers and some are still available. I've Never done this before. but, I now have 200, 284 cases. Any tips or tricks in doing this? How will the larger primers effect the powder charges. I'm currently using 45grn. of LiL gun under a 230grn FMJ.
Thanks again for that load!
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Old 04-20-2009, 3:35 PM
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Seeing's how small rifle primers are non exitent. I think it's time to resurrect the 284 to 450B case project. I have a good supply of large rifle primers and some are still available. I've Never done this before. but, I now have 200, 284 cases. Any tips or tricks in doing this? How will the larger primers effect the powder charges. I'm currently using 45grn. of LiL gun under a 230grn FMJ.
Thanks again for that load!
Starting from page 2 and going past page 6:

Here's some of it,

"I'm giving up on using trimmed down W284 cases, at least till someone smarter than me comes along and tells me exactly how to make them work.

But, here's what I've experienced so far:

The trimmed case wall at the mouth seems to be about .001 or so thicker, although I don't see it when I mic them out, but when seating the bullet with the 450 die, the alignment sleeve often scrapes a little brass off of the case and sticks when retracting it from the die.

The large rifle primers increase the pressure a lot. I stepped down 4 grs. of powder from my other loads (34 grs H110 from 38 grs.) and I still had a moderately flattened primer on my first round. So I tried my next .5 gr. step up and blew the primer out of the pocket!

Back home, load six 32 gr. rounds. Next day at the range (the range fees alone would cover buying factory rounds instead of reloading these things) I hand load one in the chamber and fire, primer looks fine, load four into the mag, failure to feed, drop the mag, with effort pull the partially closed bolt back and extract the stuck round. Insert mag with 3 rounds, failure to feed. Again struggle to extract the stuck round and say f**k it, I give up, it's not worth it."
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  #622  
Old 04-20-2009, 7:47 PM
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Default 284 Cases

I'm going to throw in my two cents here -- based on all the work Slash did before, I avoided going this route. Mostly because I felt I would spend much more in special tools to do this -- than buying a few boxes of factory until brass was available. Also, since the neck is thicker -- the way to get proper neck thickness would be to inside ream them. I don't know if any tools are made yet.

Then another question that should be addressed -- does the neck on the newly prepared case need annealing? I would think that it would.

Assuming that this is all done and the cases are prepared to spec -- what is the internal capacity of the formed 284 case versus Hornady's 450 factory. IF the 284 case has less capacity, coupled with LR primers -- pressures can be expected to be higher.

Last edited by Siringo; 04-20-2009 at 7:50 PM.. Reason: add stuff
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Old 04-20-2009, 8:39 PM
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Default 284/450B

The brass is really not the issue. I have about 10 boxes of factory ammo and the brass seams to last a long time. 6x so far. But, I'm running out of small rifle primers. I need to save them for my CAR 15 & pistol. 5.56. Just none to be had at any price. I have plenty of large rifle and can get more. I love shooting this beast! So, I have to figure this one out. Thanks for the tips! Maybe I'll rigg a sanding dowel on my case trimmer to sand down the inside of the new case, just a little. Thanks again!
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  #624  
Old 04-20-2009, 9:44 PM
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I'm going to throw in my two cents here -- based on all the work Slash did before, I avoided going this route. Mostly because I felt I would spend much more in special tools to do this -- than buying a few boxes of factory until brass was available. Also, since the neck is thicker -- the way to get proper neck thickness would be to inside ream them. I don't know if any tools are made yet.

Then another question that should be addressed -- does the neck on the newly prepared case need annealing? I would think that it would.

Assuming that this is all done and the cases are prepared to spec -- what is the internal capacity of the formed 284 case versus Hornady's 450 factory. IF the 284 case has less capacity, coupled with LR primers -- pressures can be expected to be higher.
Same here except that I bought some .284 brass, a 45 cal trimmer and .284 base holder for my old RCBS trimmer, and a cheap, mini cut-off saw for rough chopping the brass. Then I never tried it cuz it seemed like a loser.

BTW, it seems there are some new .452 hornady bullets out, a 200 grn FTX bullet.

Oh, and I'm working on the dedicated forum. I bought the domain name "450bush.com" (450b is taken, and 450bushmaster is owned by some company called Above Inc. A domain parking sevice. So either Bushmaster is sitting on it, or maybe is sitting on it to sell it)

Also I'm testing a few Wiki programs that I may be able to tie into a phpbb forum.

I'll let you guys know when it's up.

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  #625  
Old 04-21-2009, 4:01 AM
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I can draw the throat cast from my rifle, but I have no idea how to post the drawing here. I have no scanner at home. I'm waiting on a 405 grain mold I bought from another boolit caster which will give me a slug long enough to slug the chamber end, throat and first 1/2" of bore in one slug. The stacked lead balls method is OK for diameters, but not very accurate for the length measurements as the balls don't stay together when they drop out. When I get a good slug I'll make a drawing which I could send to someone who knows how to post it here.
BD
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  #626  
Old 04-21-2009, 8:24 AM
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Default Wildcatter?

Has anyone heard form Wildcatter lately? He's been missing for quite awhile.

Hey Wildcatter! You out there? Anything new on the horizon. What's happening with the Kill Bullets? Is all well with you?

Or have you lost interest in us because nobody seems to be trying to develop Photon Torpedo's for the 450B!
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:14 PM
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Has anyone heard form Wildcatter lately? He's been missing for quite awhile.

Hey Wildcatter! You out there? Anything new on the horizon. What's happening with the Kill Bullets? Is all well with you?

Or have you lost interest in us because nobody seems to be trying to develop Photon Torpedo's for the 450B!
Yep, I’m finally here again, the Prodigal Son is back. Holy Cow have I been busy and funny you should ask when you did. I’ve been reading youz guys stuff for about two hours tonight, trying to get caught up and I stand in awe of the work you all have been doing. I got a ton to tell ya..The Kill bullet is in the third generation, no one thought this thing would fly, but boy, it sure does! I had a crash course for the bullet, building it for an Executive of Cerberus (the owners of Chrysler, Bushmaster, Remington, DPMS, Marlin, and a bunch of other gun outfits), needing the proto-type bullet for an Alaskan Spring Grizzly Hunt.. Now for a little taste here, as things are not quite done yet, but rest assured, you will be the first to get the scoop and bullets to shoot, to boot..wink. OK, don’t think you can duplicate what I’m doing “YET”, don’t even try, this is all new thinking and covered by two Patents, and I am not revealing all the tricks of the trade, “YET” (you'll be the first to get it), but here goes, this will only be a teaser.. To date, a 200gr bullet going 3100fps+ (and speeds are safely going up) and apparently slapping the target 3x-5x harder than the 458win-mag!!!! I say apparently, because, the 458wm control gun is displacing 3-5x less material than the 450b-Kill Bullet does. I know this is subjective, but Holy Cow, you can't believe what I'm seeing, this is going to change everything, especially when the other calibers come on line. But for now, we have a dedicated 450b bullet that is going to kill like nothing has ever before. Again, I know these are subjective things to say, but you just wait… We plan on making a Last-Word movie to dispel all the Nay-Sayers, or nearly all, because it matters not what you do to document the truth, with 6000 rounds of Hypo-Kill, and two of the foremost renowned Forensic Pathologists on the Planet, and stress engineers out the wa-zoo, to do all the documentation, and to put their names and reputations on the line, there will always be the Nay-Sayers.

I just got back from a world wind trip to S. America, seems the Narco-Wars have heated things up so much that many-many countries want what we have (the 450b) and are developing, for their Civil Wars. This thing going on south of our boarder is being way-way underreported and is as hot as they come and it’s spilling over our border. I can’t say who or how many, but Bushy is doing a huge Landmark Business south of the Border, for the good guys. The Spec-Ops communities has their eyes, right smack on the use of our technologies and believe me, when I say our, I mean you guys, because you are advancing the cause of freedom, by the things you do and think about here. Keep up the good fight, more soon..

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  #628  
Old 04-22-2009, 8:05 AM
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As of 4.21.09, Midway has 450B brass, $40 per 50.
BUT, No primers
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Old 04-22-2009, 9:56 AM
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It's interesting to see the new bullet from Hornady has two cannelures. Nice to know they're thinking of us.

As of this morning, Natchez also has no primers.

BD
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by GunNut View Post
As of 4.21.09, Midway has 450B brass, $40 per 50.
BUT, No primers


If you want primers you have to make a habit of checking the online retailers every day. Grafs, Powder Valley, Wideners, etc. All of them get shipments, but they get bought out in a very short time.
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Old 04-22-2009, 3:18 PM
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Wildcatter
Glad to hear about the progress, it makes me want the kill bullet NOW.
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Old 04-22-2009, 8:05 PM
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The brass is really not the issue. I have about 10 boxes of factory ammo and the brass seams to last a long time. 6x so far. But, I'm running out of small rifle primers. I need to save them for my CAR 15 & pistol. 5.56. Just none to be had at any price. I have plenty of large rifle and can get more. I love shooting this beast! So, I have to figure this one out. Thanks for the tips! Maybe I'll rigg a sanding dowel on my case trimmer to sand down the inside of the new case, just a little. Thanks again!
Does anyone make a tool/reamer to make a small rifle primer pocket into a large rifle pocket? I have an old reamer for taking the crimp out of military brass. Something on that order could work.
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  #633  
Old 04-23-2009, 7:17 AM
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Wildcatter
Glad to hear about the progress, it makes me want the kill bullet NOW.
Believe me, you and a number of others, on this site, are going to get a bunch of them, and soon I hope. We're shooting the third generation this morning for the first time. I hope this will be nearly the last generation. If all goes well with it, we'll make a couple of changes for production purposes, certify them, and Bingo, we're nearly in business. But, before they go out into the public domain, I plan to use you guys as R&D engineers. In other words, I will souvenir you guys a gob of them, get your feed back, make any necessary changes as you see fit (hey, I can't think of everything), of course within the confines of production realities (somebody's going to want something that just can't be done, photon-torpedoes are ok, but I think pink bullets might just be a no-go, but then maybe not, Siringo is pretty wild you know), and then we'll start up production... The Jews do this type of engineering. They'll have three teams, two in the shop and one in the field and they constantly rotate, bring in the new field data, doing the changes, and then sending those changes back out with a new team. It's the method they use to get a new system up and running in a relative short period of time, with some amount of assurance that the final production model, really is the final model, as it was extensively tested in combat..

Hey, where's Boomer, some of you guys are thinking about lead bullets and he is a wealth of knowledge in this area of endeavor..

Safety First..t
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Last edited by Wildcatter; 04-23-2009 at 7:19 AM..
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Old 04-23-2009, 8:29 AM
dfree dfree is offline
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for those of you out there resizing .458 jacked bullets how many re sizes do you make before reaching your final size. would like to re size hornadys 325 grain flex tip. and what are the increments of each re size? and is there any opinions on quality of equipment say from a Saeco sizer or a RCBS or lyman and would you lube a jacked bullet the same as a lead bullet?
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Old 04-23-2009, 8:44 AM
dfree dfree is offline
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wildcatter

Are your kill bullets for penetration on big game if so what range are you figuring is the max for deer black bear hogs every bullet manufacturer has there opinion on there bullets range and performance whats yours
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  #636  
Old 04-23-2009, 12:40 PM
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Wildcatter Wildcatter is offline
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The interesting thing that popped up today, was a 257gr KILL Bullet loading, that only averaged 2550fps, and was way accurate, seeing ten round multiple strings in the .625” arena (std 20” weapon shot off a Lead Sled). Now that is a bunch of rounds to be making one ragged hole and with mulit-groups and at 3710Ft/lbs this is no slouch by any stretch of the imagination. Of course the speeds will go up, but hey I could live with this mild pressure load, and with the configuration of this KILL bullet design, even though it has lower comparable energy figures than a 375 H&H, this bullet even at these speeds will way out kill a 375 right now, and we’ve got more work to do on it. I said mild pressure and this should give you a look into what’s in my bag of tricks, because a 257gr bullet on a 450b case, the case head expansion was running from .0005”-.001!! That’s no more and maybe even less than the expansion of the Factory Hornady 250gr Fodder and we’re 300fps or so faster on the chrony…Humm, that should get you awl ah think’en..t



PS, Mr. Defree, to answer your questions. One step from .458 to .4515 is all that is needed, and I use the Lee sizer luber. Put the bullets on a cookie sheet and spray them with something like Hornady's case lub it's quick and easy. This is way more lub than you need, but hey... But here's the kicker for resizing .458 to .4515 or bigger, I have freshened my chamber .002-.003 thousandths and shoot those FTX 325's without resizing them at all and visually I see no increase in pressures, but then I've been doing this for long years in many different calibers, common sense should prevail here, and the accuracy and bullet terminal performance is maintained. Again, don't do this unless you really know what you're doing, just resize them first and you'll have no decrease in over-all bullet performance, the .458's won't shed their jackets and they open up as normal. This is why we are so much more flexible with our bullets, we get to use ALL of the 45cal bullets where as the other big-bore AR calibers are stuck with what ever they have, which ain't much, by comparison.. As for range of the Kill Bullet, well, subjectively speaking, if you can hold'em you've got way more left over Horse Power at 500+ yds and accuracy to boot for anything in N. America. Not saying you should take such long shots, but then again I've got customers that prefer such ranges with their 450's, bullet construction is very important at that point and is the reason I've designed this Kill Bullet, it will be like one stop shopping, that is, one bullet for all missions..

Safety First..t
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  #637  
Old 04-23-2009, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcatter View Post
I've designed this Kill Bullet, it will be like one stop shopping, that is, one bullet for all missions..

Safety First..t
Is it going to be lead free?
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  #638  
Old 04-24-2009, 11:00 AM
NordicRX8 NordicRX8 is offline
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Well, my dies finally were delivered (Grafs & Sons) and have my press setup ready to go. Dang it if I didn't run out of One Shot and had to go driving around town to find some.

Getting back to my bench with a new can (three actually) of One Shot lube, I noticed that the Hornady 240gr XTP/MAG I thought I had on my bench was actually 250gr XTP (non-MAG).

Do you guys think it's OK to use the same powder charges (Lil-Gun) for the 250gr XTP as Hornady has listed for the 250gr FTX?

Comparing the 240gr XTP to the 300gr XTP, I see OAL is 2.060-2.065", I'm thinking the 250grXTP should be loaded to the same OAL.

Thoughts?
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  #639  
Old 04-24-2009, 2:28 PM
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Hi Guys,

I've been out of circulation with health issues... (bad back, hip, and a sore rotator cuff - my shooting shoulder of course.) I'm going to an Ultra 500 match tomorrow at the Sacramento Shooting Center as an observer (visiting my shooting buddies.)

I look forward to testing some of the new bullets; especially evaluation samples!

Ive been working on some new cast bullets for the 450b, 45 Colts, and 45-70's in the 250 - 360 grain range. These IMO work in the range that I feel is the most useful for the 450b. IMO bullets larger than 375 grains aren't suitable for the pressure curve of this cartridge in the AR platform. They can be used of course, but with losses in efficiency that may not be worth the effort unless you have a special application such as a single shot subsonic load where you cycle the action manually.

I'll post pictures of the new bullets as I get them cast... keep up the excellent work!

My Bushmaster V-Match upper should be here today or Monday.... ordered in December.

Boomer
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Last edited by 450BOOMER; 04-24-2009 at 2:40 PM..
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  #640  
Old 04-24-2009, 8:41 PM
sparx sparx is offline
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man wildcatter uv got me so strangely aroused with this kill bullet. Ever sense before the elections Iv been anxiously waiting and it just seems to be getting better and better. Anything good is worth waiting for
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