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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:19 AM
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Default San Diego DOJ Office threatens man with surrender or jail for Legal AR Pistol.

One of our customers followed the law and self registered his self made 80% lower as a fixed magazine AR pistol. He did so prior to July 1st 2018.

The DOJ asked for photos of the gun and of course he complied and sent in the requested photos.

The DOJ, six of them from the San Diego office, went to his home to request to inspect the AR pistol. He was not home so his father took the business card and gave it to his son. He called and the DOJ asked if he would bring down the firearm so they could inspect it.

The next day he went to the San Diego DOJ office with his fixed mag AR pistol.He presented it with the upper and lower unattached just to be safe.

The DOJ agent informed him the gun was in violation. Giving him a paper with assault weapon regs and had highlighted the ones he was in violation of.

First: Rifle under 30" (not true since it was registered as a pistol)
Second: Handguard and flash hider on pistol (Now the agent is recognizing it as a pistol,but this doesn't apply since it's fixed mag)
Third: Fixed magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds. (Okay, so now he recognizes it as a fixed magazine but this would not apply because it is a Comp Mag which only holds 10 rounds)
Lastly the DOJ agent says it is a unsafe handgun. ( Well he built it as an exempt bolt action and later converted it, DOJ would have to prove he did not.)

When none of the above works for the DOJ agent he tells my customer he is in violation because there was not a DOJ issued serial number engraved on the gun prior to January 1st 2015. 2015?

At this point my customer is worried because he has never heard anything about 2015. That's because no one has.

The San Diego DOJ agent tells him he has a choice... surrender the firearm or go to jail.

He of course is concerned,he has no idea if he has violated this mystery 2015 law and surrenders the firearm. Upper, lower, they take everything. Not to mention the firearm upper and lower were not attached and by DOJ's own rules would not have been a semi auto firearm or assault weapon.

The San Diego DOJ office used scare tactics and bullying to force my customer to surrender his legal firearm.

My customer now has an attorney and will be fighting to get his property back.
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  #2  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rough Gear Review View Post

My customer now has an attorney and will be fighting to get his property back.
It'd be cheaper to buy and PPT another AR pistol.

Getting an attorney also poses of the risk of charges being pressed and costing more money to fight the charge.

If the gun was legal and LEO confiscated it -- notice how they pressured owner to surrender rather than straight up confiscate it which is different, but same result.

DOJ may of been bluffing, but they have unlimited legal resources whereas the average citizen does not. Numbers game at that point. DOJ has edge for sure.

Unfortunate situation all around, however owner should be thankful to not be in jail.

It's just not worth it to spend the money on an attorney to petition a judge to release the firearm -- That's the only person with authority that can do it.

Or, to spend the money on an attorney to fight a potential charge when owner has option to steer clear of being FUBAR and losing gun rights for life.
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  #3  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:43 AM
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Thanks for posting this information. Many people were trying to make heads or tails about this topic...
  #4  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:01 PM
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So I have a question.

Would your "customer" be in better, worse, or the same predicament had he called a lawyer BEFORE contacting the San Diego DOJ office?
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  #5  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by truthseeker View Post
So I have a question.

Would your "customer" be in better, worse, or the same predicament had he called a lawyer BEFORE contacting the San Diego DOJ office?
There it is
  #6  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by truthseeker View Post
So I have a question.

Would your "customer" be in better, worse, or the same predicament had he called a lawyer BEFORE contacting the San Diego DOJ office?


It’s quite obvious he would’ve been better off had he consulted a lawyer prior to making contact with CADOJ. Hell, I would’ve brought my lawyer to the office with me.
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  #7  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:20 PM
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Just the NWO.

Move along citizen.
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:36 PM
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That’s why I registered mine as an AW. “Let me see your gun.” “Sorry officer, I cannot transfer this to you legally.”


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Old 01-16-2019, 12:37 PM
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Register your gun they said. It's good to be a law-abiding citizen, they said.
  #10  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:47 PM
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Best of luck to the OP's customer.

I hope this gets sorted out, firearm returned, and owner vindicated, in short order.

OP, when did this take place?
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  #11  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Stanze View Post

DOJ may of been bluffing, but they have unlimited legal resources whereas the average citizen does not. Numbers game at that point. DOJ has edge for sure.
they may have unlimited resources using our own tax money against us, but they have limited personnel.

they keep pushing and it won't be long before some fringe group will do some tree watering.
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  #12  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:50 PM
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Please keep us updated.

There is another recent thread here with a similar story http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1503302
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:54 PM
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Obey the law, what can happen?
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  #14  
Old 01-16-2019, 1:17 PM
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Where the NRA now?
  #15  
Old 01-16-2019, 1:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rough Gear Review View Post
The San Diego DOJ office used scare tactics and bullying to force my customer to surrender his legal firearm.
Seems more like robbery than scare tactics... The guy clearly felt his freedom was at risk unless he handed over his legal property...
  #16  
Old 01-16-2019, 2:36 PM
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Aaaaand this is why I registered my 80% stuff via snail mail in February 2018 (2 fixed mag AR Pistols, 1 featureless AR Rifle). All as semi-auto, no pictures, no feedback, just 3 letters four months later.

Seems to me if the DOJ wanted to arrest the guy on AW charges they would have had a warrant on the first visit and would have taken it then and arrested him later when he got home. They obviously weren't concerned enough about an unregistered AW being "on the streets" to get a warrant.

No warrant, no peekie.
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Old 01-16-2019, 2:37 PM
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I've already let the wife know to not let anyone in and just pick up the business card after they leave if anyone comes sniffing for registerd 80% issues. She was not thrilled.

Hopefully some big players get involved if this guys case is all up and up before the DOJ gets even more greedy.

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  #18  
Old 01-16-2019, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pure3d2 View Post
Register your gun they said. It's good to be a law-abiding citizen, they said.
This. Why anyone registered anything blows my mind.
  #19  
Old 01-16-2019, 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Snapplefacts View Post
This. Why anyone registered anything blows my mind.


Because you have to register 80% per the new law. If you had DROSed regular lowers then all you had to do was make it featureless or go fixed mag. Most of us who wanted an AR pistol had to go the 80% route.
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Old 01-16-2019, 4:16 PM
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Because you have to register 80% per the new law. If you had DROSed regular lowers then all you had to do was make it featureless or go fixed mag. Most of us who wanted an AR pistol had to go the 80% route.
I understand that, and everyone has to (and had to) make the decision for themselves what to do when it comes to "following the rules" in CA. Unfortunately, this gentleman followed those rules and still got screwed. What's worse, is that he isn't the first and will not be the last.
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Old 01-16-2019, 4:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rough Gear Review View Post
One of our customers followed the law and self registered his self made 80% lower as a fixed magazine AR pistol. He did so prior to July 1st 2018.
Sounds Good so far...

Quote:
The DOJ asked for photos of the gun and of course he complied and sent in the requested photos.
And then fails right here. Better response should of been no....sorry DOJ please cite the law that pictures are required for registration.

Quote:
The DOJ, six of them from the San Diego office, went to his home to request to inspect the AR pistol. He was not home so his father took the business card and gave it to his son. He called and the DOJ asked if he would bring down the firearm so they could inspect it.
Six agents don't show up to look at your firearm. That writing is clear as day on the wall. They got pictures and think there is something illegal on it.

Quote:
The next day he went to the San Diego DOJ office with his fixed mag AR pistol.He presented it with the upper and lower unattached just to be safe.
Without consulting an attorney before doing this is very questionable. I meet people everyday who's firearms are not compliant and they think they are.

Quote:
The DOJ agent informed him the gun was in violation. Giving him a paper with assault weapon regs and had highlighted the ones he was in violation of.
This is a good time to exercise that right to remain silent thing you see in movies. If someone in law enforcement is telling you they think you have an Assault Weapon...these are not petty charges.

Quote:
First: Rifle under 30" (not true since it was registered as a pistol)
Are we sure he didn't "accidentally" register it as a rifle?

Quote:
Second: Handguard and flash hider on pistol (Now the agent is recognizing it as a pistol,but this doesn't apply since it's fixed mag)
Are we sure its a fixed mag to DOJ scutiny?

Quote:
Third: Fixed magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds. (Okay, so now he recognizes it as a fixed magazine but this would not apply because it is a Comp Mag which only holds 10 rounds)
We sure thats the picture he sent them or they understand its a 10 round magazine.

Quote:
Lastly the DOJ agent says it is a unsafe handgun. ( Well he built it as an exempt bolt action and later converted it, DOJ would have to prove he did not.)
DOJ has hinted that making this semi auto could be construed as manufacturing even if originally made bolt action single shot. Hard to convince a judge/jury that you followed the law and made something legal but later made it unsafe but its cool cause you had it legal for 4 seconds at one time.

Quote:
When none of the above works for the DOJ agent he tells my customer he is in violation because there was not a DOJ issued serial number engraved on the gun prior to January 1st 2015. 2015?
This is where my Lawyer who would be there with me if I was stupid enough to fall into this trap would ask for the Relevant PC code that applies.

Quote:
The San Diego DOJ agent tells him he has a choice... surrender the firearm or go to jail.
My Lawyer would not let me make such a decision.

Quote:
My customer now has an attorney and will be fighting to get his property back.
I really hope it all works out for him ....but man....so much wrong is this story..... this is hard to read.

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  #22  
Old 01-16-2019, 5:31 PM
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Two possibilities off the top of my head:

1) No DOJ-assigned serial. Would look something like "FMBUSxxxx" which is the template DOJ uses.
2) Entered on his application that he converted the pistol to semi-auto on/after Jan 1, 2015. The single-shot exemption was eliminated under AB 1964.

https://www.guns.com/news/2014/07/19...gun-exemptions
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Old 01-16-2019, 5:51 PM
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It doesn’t matter what the law is. He’s in violation because he is. Period. Peasants don’t get to ask. Only obey.


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  #24  
Old 01-16-2019, 6:16 PM
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Old 01-16-2019, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troyPhD View Post
Two possibilities off the top of my head:



1) No DOJ-assigned serial. Would look something like "FMBUSxxxx" which is the template DOJ uses.

2) Entered on his application that he converted the pistol to semi-auto on/after Jan 1, 2015. The single-shot exemption was eliminated under AB 1964.



https://www.guns.com/news/2014/07/19...gun-exemptions
I've seen people siting multiple different years for the date that conversion from single shot to semi auto so a lot of people are either confused or a lot of people are screwed.

Somewhere he posts that he brings it in 2 separate pieces. That right there means it's not a firearm perse. Or the favorite argument on here that a fixed mag not locked into the receiver at all times makes it a AW. So much **** going on here.

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Old 01-16-2019, 6:40 PM
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Originally Posted by baranski View Post
Where the NRA now?

They are probably doing what they are supposed to do.
I wasn't aware that sending in $40 a year membership fee to the NRA equated to an agreement to provide a on call legal defense.
If you know of any organization that will provide you a on call legal defense for $40 a year, please post the information here. I am sure that there are lots of people that would want to sign up.
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Last edited by TRICKSTER; 01-16-2019 at 6:43 PM..
  #27  
Old 01-16-2019, 7:09 PM
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Nevermind. Reading is fundamental.

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  #28  
Old 01-16-2019, 7:47 PM
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I submitted a Firearms Ownership Report on an 80% firearm as a 'Frame Only' handgun previous to 7/1/18. Received an email that my 'application' was 'incomplete' with a question to 'verify if the firearm was frame only' and it included a request for pictures. I verified that the information I submitted was indeed correct the first time and asked why they are verifying this information on a report that is not subject to approval or denial. I received a snail mail approval letter a few days later.

It appears the CA DOJ officers are marking any Firearms Ownership Reports that involves an 80% handgun as 'incomplete' and sending similar emails. Are they allowed to refuse or declare incomplete a report that was submitted with all required fields completed? It is incompetence at best (do your job and file the ****ing report), and an active attempt to get pictures and possibly entrap law-abiding citizens at worst.

Last edited by dayz2men; 01-16-2019 at 7:54 PM..
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Old 01-16-2019, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dayz2men View Post
an active attempt to get pictures and possibly entrap law-abiding citizens
This
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Old 01-16-2019, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by baranski View Post
Where the NRA now?
You do realize that the NRA is not as powerful as the media makes out? They can not just march in and solve all government oversteps in a matter of minutes. The NRA is just a shooting club with lawyers were as the DOJ can write blank checks paid for by California's tax payers.
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Old 01-16-2019, 8:27 PM
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It appears the CA DOJ officers are marking any Firearms Ownership Reports that involves an 80% handgun as 'incomplete' and sending similar emails.
my 80% AR pistol volreg application was approved with no questions and no request for pictures. Sent in last March, approved December. Of course the lesson learned here now, is don't go visit any DOJ without a lawyer present.

Last edited by sbo80; 01-16-2019 at 8:28 PM.. Reason: .
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Old 01-16-2019, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
my 80% AR pistol volreg application was approved with no questions and no request for pictures. Sent in last March, approved December. Of course the lesson learned here now, is don't go visit any DOJ without a lawyer present.
Did you register semi auto or single shot? Did you register by mail or online?
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Old 01-16-2019, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Strykeback View Post
I've seen people siting multiple different years for the date that conversion from single shot to semi auto so a lot of people are either confused or a lot of people are screwed.

Somewhere he posts that he brings it in 2 separate pieces. That right there means it's not a firearm perse. Or the favorite argument on here that a fixed mag not locked into the receiver at all times makes it a AW. So much **** going on here.

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Since it's unknown whether it's legal to convert a pistol to semi-auto under SSE2 (starting Jan 1, 2015), many people backdated their conversions on their BBAW applications to before that day and successfully registered.

Even if OP brought the firearm in two pieces, the photos in his BBAW application are all the evidence DOJ needs.
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Old 01-16-2019, 9:11 PM
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Converting from single shot to semi-auto has always been a questionable practice. Under SSE 1.0, few guns were sold at first under that exemption and it took many years for for the number of FFLs willing to sell using it to reach a significant number. By then, the DOJ had waited too long to effectively challenge conversion from single shot to semi-auto.

When the law changed to SSE 2.0, the wording of the law changed enough that a reasonable argument could be made that after building as a single shot if one changed to a semi-auto the DOJ would consider that part of the manufacturing process and it would take a court case to resolve the issue.

The DOJ has been signaling their intent. One of the Franklin Armory's AR single shot pistols that the DOJ specifically ruled could not be sold in CA shipped with all the parts to make it a semi-auto minus the magazine. Five minutes of work and add a mag and it was a semi-auto.

I consulted with an attorney about doing an 80% polymer Glock build and he said to leave it as a bolt action until after a test case made it through the court system unless I had deep pockets and wanted to risk my future gun rights.

Personally, if I were registering a build, I would submit the information and then store the gun out of state until it was approved. It they wanted to see it, they can make the trip out of state to see it. That way, if there is a problem, I can fix it without them wanting to confiscate it.
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Old 01-16-2019, 9:36 PM
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Old 01-16-2019, 9:40 PM
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Pictures were not required to self register ANY HANDGUN. That was for BBAW.
Off the unrealible second hand information I could only guess the OP’s customer attempted to register a handgun through the BBAW registration.
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Old 01-16-2019, 9:42 PM
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This. Why anyone registered anything blows my mind.

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  #38  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:11 PM
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mshill mshill is offline
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Originally Posted by troyPhD View Post
Since it's unknown whether it's legal to convert a pistol to semi-auto under SSE2 (starting Jan 1, 2015), many people backdated their conversions on their BBAW applications to before that day and successfully registered.
Sorry to burst your bubble but there was never any place on the BBAW application, nor is there on the volreg application to specify a date for conversion to semi-auto. The only date that could have been entered was date of acquisition or in the case of an 80% the date of manufacture.
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  #39  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:33 PM
troyPhD troyPhD is offline
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble but there was never any place on the BBAW application, nor is there on the volreg application to specify a date for conversion to semi-auto. The only date that could have been entered was date of acquisition or in the case of an 80% the date of manufacture.
So if the applicant manufactured a semi-auto BBAW pistol in 2016 that may have been the violation. Just speculating.

All I know is people who made BBAW pistols from 80% backdated (or legitimately did) the manufacture before 2015 and now have gotten their registration papers.
  #40  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:42 PM
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curtisfong curtisfong is offline
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Originally Posted by 21guns View Post
Pictures were not required to self register ANY HANDGUN. That was for BBAW.
Off the unrealible second hand information I could only guess the OP’s customer attempted to register a handgun through the BBAW registration.
Exactly this. He's screwed, not because he is a criminal, but because the contorted mess of laws are impossible for an average person to navigate. The DoJ knows this. It pleases them.
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