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  #201  
Old 03-07-2009, 8:18 AM
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Originally Posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!! View Post
I don't think so. Again, I'm not going to argue it here...has anyone ever won a statutory interpretation argument here after getting dogpiled at Calguns?
<john cleese> Ahhh...do I detect the scent of burning martyr? </cleese>

Seriously though, why would you seek that kind of validation on the internet, anyway?

Quote:
Here's my dilemma: I think it's a little reckless to tell people that BB equipped rifles with prohibited features are "100% friggin' legal" (bwiese said that once on one of the message boards). I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as that.
Quote:
There is no chance of validation of the competing argument here, which is why it would be tempting for me to provide commentary in the OAL proceedings. I'd be conlicted about doing that but if it were done in the context of a wager that would be different.
So I'm not understanding what your dilemma is, exactly. But it sounds like you're just inherently uncomfortable with the opposition's inability to write anti-gun statutes that clearly reflect their intent -- and you'd rather we just skip all the legal wrangling and stop using BB-configured OLLs.

Have I got that right?

--Neill
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  #202  
Old 03-07-2009, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
I don't think so. Again, I'm not going to argue it here...has anyone ever won a statutory interpretation argument here after getting dogpiled at Calguns?
YES. Me. On OLLs. In 2004.

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  #203  
Old 03-08-2009, 7:41 AM
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Originally Posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!! View Post
Here's another wager proposal: OAL agrees a legally tenable argument can be made that a Bullet Button equipped, semiautomatic centerfire rifle has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine, notwithstanding APA-compliant, binding 5469(a) and the lawfully configured SKS fixed-magazine rifle.
I think I know where you are going, except I don't think a legitimate argument can be made by your reasoning.

In order for a judgement to be made whether a specific rifle is an "assault weapon" it must be considered as a complete, ready to fire unit. That includes a magazine inserted in the magazine well. When using a properly installed Prince50 or BB, with the magazine inserted, it cannot be removed without the use of tools and no longer has the "capacity to accept" any magazine.

Last edited by BillCA; 03-08-2009 at 8:00 AM..
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  #204  
Old 03-08-2009, 11:19 AM
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This is probably a losing bet for me but with the right odds I'd take it: $250.00, 10 to 1 odds, that OAL summarily disposes of the underground regulation petition, or decides that there is no underground regulation in the "CTA letter." If OAL declines to accept or DOJ does a 280 certification it's a draw.

Last edited by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!; 03-08-2009 at 3:50 PM..
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  #205  
Old 03-08-2009, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
Way off topic...

That is very cool to see a link to Ultimate Rollercoaster here, the owner of the site is a friend of mine and a SoCal native... but not a gun guy. He started the site in college, and I think some of the photos I took are still up there.
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  #206  
Old 03-08-2009, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BillCA View Post
In order for a judgement to be made whether a specific rifle is an "assault weapon" it must be considered as a complete, ready to fire unit. That includes a magazine inserted in the magazine well. When using a properly installed Prince50 or BB, with the magazine inserted, it cannot be removed without the use of tools and no longer has the "capacity to accept" any magazine.
I have a hard time understanding how this is a legally-tenable interpretation. Wouldn't there be no such thing as a rifle that had a "capacity to accept" a magazine when it had a magazine already in its well?

I can only conclude that "capacity to accept" refers to the rifle with no magazine attached. The P50 (properly installed) and BB simply make the magazine non-detachable without tools, since it has no moving parts which make it "detachable" or "fixed" -- the magazine retention system of the rifle determines that. (As another poster rightly said earlier, "all magazines are ultimately detachable, and I've got the tools to prove it.")
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  #207  
Old 03-08-2009, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!! View Post
This is probably a losing bet for me but with the right odds I'd take it: $250.00, 5 to 1 odds, that OAL summarily disposes of the underground regulation petition, or decides that there is no underground regulation in the "CTA letter." If OAL declines to accept or DOJ does a 280 certification it's a draw.
It's been a while since I engaged in betting online, but isn't that unwinable ?
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  #208  
Old 03-08-2009, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by artherd View Post
It's been a while since I engaged in betting online, but isn't that unwinable ?
Pretty much. I've changed the odds to 10 to 1.
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  #209  
Old 03-08-2009, 5:10 PM
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Seems to me that he's trying to bait y'all into making an online bet...


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  #210  
Old 03-08-2009, 6:46 PM
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What is a 280 certification?
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  #211  
Old 03-08-2009, 6:58 PM
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This is 1 CCR 280:

Quote:
TITLE 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS
DIVISION 1. OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATIVE LAW
CHAPTER 2. UNDERGROUND REGULATIONS
This database is current through 2/20/09, Register 2009, No. 8
§ 280. Suspension of Actions Regarding Underground Regulations.

(a) Any action of OAL or an agency pursuant to this chapter in connection with a petition shall be suspended if OAL receives a certification from the agency that it will not issue, use, enforce, or attempt to enforce the alleged underground regulation along with proof that the certification has been served on the petitioner. This certification shall be made by the head of the agency or a person with a written delegation of authority from the head of the agency.

(b) Upon receipt of this certification and proof of service, OAL shall do all of the following:

(1) File the petition and the certification with the Secretary of State.

(2) Publish a summary of the petition and the certification in the California Regulatory Notice Register.

(3) Provide a copy of the certification to the petitioner.

Note: Authority cited: Section 11342.4, Government Code. Reference: Section 11340.5, Government Code.
Hope the link works as westlaw's public stuff is kinda poor.

-Gene
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  #212  
Old 03-08-2009, 7:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 383green View Post

lol

ever been to /b/ ?

over there it means something totally different
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  #213  
Old 03-08-2009, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sreiter View Post
lol

ever been to /b/ ?

over there it means something totally different
No, I haven't been there, but I think I've seen some quoted /b/ material before. How do they use it there? (PM me if it's too risque for the open forum. )
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  #214  
Old 03-08-2009, 8:04 PM
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pm sent
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  #215  
Old 03-09-2009, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 383green View Post
Seems to me that he's trying to bait y'all into making an online bet...[/IMG]
Not trying to bait anybody. If the proposal isn't above board it's withdrawn. If we can, let's structure something that won't get anyone in trouble.
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  #216  
Old 03-09-2009, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!! View Post
If we can, let's structure something that won't get anyone in trouble.
As you might have caught from another thread, I've been a bit busy. I'd really like to find a way to do these sorts of public wagers legally. Mind taking a look?

-Gene
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  #217  
Old 03-09-2009, 12:01 PM
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Sure, I'll take a look.
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  #218  
Old 03-11-2009, 1:50 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
I'd really like to find a way to do these sorts of public wagers legally.
-Gene
Trip to the Caymans? FGG, care to make this *really* interesting?
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  #219  
Old 03-11-2009, 1:57 AM
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Originally Posted by artherd View Post
Trip to the Caymans? FGG, care to make this *really* interesting?
It is about time I get a vacation, how do I get into this game?
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  #220  
Old 03-11-2009, 2:28 AM
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Originally Posted by C.G. View Post
It is about time I get a vacation, how do I get into this game?
Looser pays the GV's gas bill, last one there's a vegetarian!
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  #221  
Old 03-11-2009, 10:19 AM
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Edited: Looks like Penal Code §337a might prohibit the wager.

Last edited by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!; 03-11-2009 at 11:10 AM..
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  #222  
Old 03-12-2009, 6:24 AM
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What about the first paragraph of AM's letter where she says the DOJ has no duty to declare whether a firearm is not an AW.

In that case, why was a letter written advising that the Stag-15 was legal to purchase in California? I guess it's your duty only when you think it's convenient.

Ms. M, go back and read your job description:

It is the duty of the Attorney General to see that the laws of the state are uniformly and adequately enforced (California Constitution, Article V, Section 13.)

So who do you go to when you want a legal opinion as to whether your firearm is legal? One would think it's the BOF, but according to AM it's not their legal duty to say whether a firearms is legal and that is for the courts to decide. Maybe in that case the next move should be to file a lawsuit for declaratory relief that the P50 and the BB are legal, and an injunction against the DOJ enforcing its unconstitutional and illegal underground regulation.

Last edited by JWI; 03-12-2009 at 6:28 AM..
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  #223  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JWI View Post
Maybe in that case the next move should be to file a lawsuit for declaratory relief that the P50 and the BB are legal, and an injunction against the DOJ enforcing its unconstitutional and illegal underground regulation.


We'll let OAL run its course first...

-Gene
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  #224  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post


We'll let OAL run its course first...

-Gene
Amen.

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  #225  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:40 AM
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We'll let OAL run its course first...

-Gene
+1 why spend money you don't have to.
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  #226  
Old 03-15-2009, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!! View Post
Edited: Looks like Penal Code §337a might prohibit the wager.
Looks to me like 337a is a limit on bookmakers not individual wagerers.
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  #227  
Old 03-16-2009, 9:23 PM
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Looks to me like 337a is a limit on bookmakers not individual wagerers.
Wanna bet?
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  #228  
Old 03-16-2009, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GunOwner View Post
Wanna bet?


-Gene
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  #229  
Old 03-17-2009, 11:45 AM
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Wanna bet?
Baaaaahahahahhah!~
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  #230  
Old 03-17-2009, 12:38 PM
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So who do you go to when you want a legal opinion as to whether your firearm is legal? One would think it's the BOF, but according to AM it's not their legal duty to say whether a firearms is legal and that is for the courts to decide.
Wouldn't that then mean that 12276.1 is an unconstitutionally vague law if the only authority that can determine if a law was violated is the judicial system?

i.e. How does one know what is proscribed if a court must decide what the law really means?
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  #231  
Old 03-18-2009, 3:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DDT View Post
Looks to me like 337a is a limit on bookmakers not individual wagerers.
That's what it looked like to me at first glance. The standard jury instructions and decisional law say otherwise; 337a is interpreted as prohibiting individual wagers.
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  #232  
Old 03-20-2009, 12:35 AM
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Gene, you are the the man!
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  #233  
Old 03-20-2009, 12:42 AM
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BTW: what are we waiting on as far as getting the final ok on NeRF's
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  #234  
Old 03-20-2009, 7:23 AM
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BTW: what are we waiting on as far as getting the final ok on NeRF's
A response/ruling from the OAL to the petition.
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  #235  
Old 03-20-2009, 10:19 AM
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A response/ruling from the OAL to the petition.
So there are two separate petitions...one for NeRF's, one for BB's...and were waiting to hear responses on both correct?
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  #236  
Old 03-20-2009, 10:29 AM
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So there are two separate petitions...one for NeRF's, one for BB's...and were waiting to hear responses on both correct?
Correct.

NeRF's
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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  #237  
Old 03-20-2009, 10:41 AM
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Gene I just read your bio...WOW! Youngest NASDAQ CEO ever! Most impressive, Thanks for taking up our cause!

http://www.hoffmang.com/about.html

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  #238  
Old 03-20-2009, 10:42 AM
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Correct.

NeRF's
thanks for the info and the link
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  #239  
Old 03-24-2009, 9:32 PM
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Gene, according to your bio. It appears you are on life #3 or have you been a "gun fan" your entire life?
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  #240  
Old 03-24-2009, 10:23 PM
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I grew up in the South so I was a "gun fan" in the way that most southern boys were. I had a BB gun very early and my dad bought me a shotgun before I could drive.

I came out here and experienced the state placing its nose in places it shouldn't be and that accelerated my interest.

-Gene
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