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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #121  
Old 12-27-2017, 8:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorcalGSG View Post
I have read here that the transaction must be done before 2017 ends, but interstate shipping company can deliver after the 1st is still ok. I checked the doj bof web page and saw nothing at all about ammogeddon period to explain or clarify. So right now, I'm in the dark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aBrowningfan View Post
This is one example of why I am expecting lawsuits over the new law.
Who will sue whom and on what grounds? Ammo buyers won't sue distributors for selling ammo.
/////////////
Quote:
Originally Posted by lapriester View Post
Well that's simply too late. If they send it to you and you receive it after 12/31/17 you will both be in violation of the law.
I'll bet you a dollar that the companies have more law degrees than you.
/////////////
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Originally Posted by champu View Post
Ultimately it depends on what the vendor is comfortable with. I doubt the carriers give a crap and worrying about transient issues like this is a waste of calories both for us and for DoJ/DAs.
Wisdom and enlightenment. DOJ knows this is a transitional blow-through. The overall impact doesn't move the needle, so why worry?

Carriers have no idea whether the shipment meets the new CA laws or not (could be an FFL01 or 03 w/COE purchaser--they don't care--they're moving crates of packages).
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  #122  
Old 12-27-2017, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Who will sue whom and on what grounds? Ammo buyers won't sue distributors for selling ammo.
Ammo buyers challenging the law for increasing the cost of their ammunition? BassPro has already cut back their ammunition sales and the items that are on sale aren't as aggressively discounted. Add in a $10/purchase administrative cost recovery fee and the 7th amendment threshold gets met pretty quickly.
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  #123  
Old 12-28-2017, 4:18 PM
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Does this law affect ammo trnasactions between individuals? Meaning; can I still buy ammo from another person through calguns without going through a FFL? Or would it then be treated as the same as a PPT with firearms?
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  #124  
Old 12-28-2017, 5:23 PM
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Went to get some more ammo before the new law. Shelves were empty.

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Originally Posted by operavoice View Post
I apologize if this has been addressed, being new, I'm not up to speed yet.
Is anyone aware if there is pending litigation, or a pending filling for an injunction regarding out of state ammunition purchases?

My Google-fu hasn't found anything tangible.

I've asked the Calguns foundation several times when I have sent money for their various other lawsuits, but they take my money and don't respond.

If there is a specific thread, if like to follow it.
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  #125  
Old 12-28-2017, 6:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restricted View Post
Does this law affect ammo trnasactions between individuals? Meaning; can I still buy ammo from another person through calguns without going through a FFL? Or would it then be treated as the same as a PPT with firearms?
It would need to be treated similarly to a PPT.

Quote:
PC 30312 (a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction...
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  #126  
Old 12-28-2017, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by champu View Post
It would need to be treated similarly to a PPT.
Law doesn’t say about transfer. It mostly mention of sales. Am I wrong?

It wouldn’t be right. So we can not share ammo at the range.
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  #127  
Old 12-28-2017, 9:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restricted View Post
Does this law affect ammo trnasactions between individuals? Meaning; can I still buy ammo from another person through calguns without going through a FFL? Or would it then be treated as the same as a PPT with firearms?
Yes
No
Yes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #128  
Old 12-28-2017, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sambodian View Post
It wouldn’t be right. So we can not share ammo at the range.
Share, but not sell.

I can make a batch of wine or beer and share it with friends.
I can not make a batch of wine or beer and sell a bottle to a friend.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #129  
Old 12-29-2017, 9:30 AM
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Another failed law it looks like. So basically it wouldn’t stop a criminal getting ammo from another state nor overseas in the black market. Only put restriction on law bidding citizens and the license dealer. They should look at all those smash and grab videos by criminals.

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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Share, but not sell.

I can make a batch of wine or beer and share it with friends.
I can not make a batch of wine or beer and sell a bottle to a friend.
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  #130  
Old 12-29-2017, 12:23 PM
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I was wondering about the handicapped. I am in a wheelchair. While I can drive, some cannot. It is a colossal pain for me but not impossible to get to a store.

If someone cannot drive but buys 22s through the internet to shoot on his own property but cannot get to a store, is he discriminated against? Is seems so, but I am not aware of the ADA provisions about something like this.

Just a concern if I can't drive in the near future.
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  #131  
Old 12-29-2017, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sambodian View Post
Law doesn’t say about transfer. It mostly mention of sales. Am I wrong?

It wouldn’t be right. So we can not share ammo at the range.
http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-co...ect-30312.html
Quote:
(a)(1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction.

b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller, deliverer, or transferor...
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  #132  
Old 12-29-2017, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
I was wondering about the handicapped. I am in a wheelchair. While I can drive, some cannot. It is a colossal pain for me but not impossible to get to a store.

If someone cannot drive but buys 22s through the internet to shoot on his own property but cannot get to a store, is he discriminated against? Is seems so, but I am not aware of the ADA provisions about something like this.

Just a concern if I can't drive in the near future.
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  #133  
Old 12-29-2017, 5:22 PM
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I haven't seen this yet so not sure how relevant or informative it is:

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  #134  
Old 12-29-2017, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
30314.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to a licensed ammunition vendor for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30312.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

(1) An ammunition vendor.

(2) A sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, or sworn federal law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of the officer’s duties.

(3) An importer or manufacturer of ammunition or firearms who is licensed to engage in business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(4) A person who is on the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees maintained by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 28450) of Chapter 6 of Division 6.

(5) A person who is licensed as a collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.

(6) A person who acquired the ammunition from a spouse, registered domestic partner, or immediate family member as defined in Section 16720.

(c) A violation of this section is an infraction for any first time offense, and either an infraction or a misdemeanor for any subsequent offense.

Ok....I GOT THIS!! So, the answer to the dilemma here appears to be....marry a peace officer?


Quote:
Originally Posted by baranski View Post
Same sheet the LEO say about magazines and the roster.

I'd offer to marry you, except you're already married.....so.......


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  #135  
Old 12-30-2017, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
I haven't seen this yet so not sure how relevant or informative it is:

I saw that. the part on how GOC membership dropped from 300k to 30k after Prop 15 lost is very telling to say the least.


oh and we're screwed next year. it's only going to get worse.
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  #136  
Old 12-31-2017, 6:28 AM
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Hey DOJ God hates you.You are Traitors to America
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  #137  
Old 01-03-2018, 8:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
I was wondering about the handicapped. I am in a wheelchair. While I can drive, some cannot. It is a colossal pain for me but not impossible to get to a store.

If someone cannot drive but buys 22s through the internet to shoot on his own property but cannot get to a store, is he discriminated against? Is seems so, but I am not aware of the ADA provisions about something like this.

Just a concern if I can't drive in the near future.
That's an interesting question, hopefully someone smarter than me will comment on it.
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  #138  
Old 01-03-2018, 9:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
You highlighted delivery and transfer, but it read sale in front. Its a typical procedure of a seller and buyer routine.

But if we transfer/deliver from a friend to a friend, brother to a brother etc. there is no sale involve. Therefore it not valid.

Again, California politician make vague policies and discriminate a law bidding vs a violent criminal. Isn’t this against federal law themselves. Just like the fake sanctuary city brown made.
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  #139  
Old 01-03-2018, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sambodian View Post
You highlighted delivery and transfer, but it read sale in front. Its a typical procedure of a seller and buyer routine.

But if we transfer/deliver from a friend to a friend, brother to a brother etc. there is no sale involve. Therefore it not valid.

Again, California politician make vague policies and discriminate a law bidding vs a violent criminal. Isn’t this against federal law themselves. Just like the fake sanctuary city brown made.
"...sale, delivery, OR transfer...."

Last edited by Dvrjon; 01-04-2018 at 6:52 AM.. Reason: Added the dropped comma
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  #140  
Old 01-03-2018, 5:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
"...sale, delivery OR transfer...."
Hmm.... Without the Oxford Comma, that could be read as "Sale through delivery or transfer" meaning mail-order or OTC.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg oxford_comma_cartoon.jpg (89.7 KB, 1160 views)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

Last edited by Cokebottle; 01-03-2018 at 5:39 PM..
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  #141  
Old 01-04-2018, 6:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Hmm.... Without the Oxford Comma, that could be read as "Sale through delivery or transfer" meaning mail-order or OTC.
While correct, it's far less important than people reading "or" as "and".
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  #142  
Old 01-04-2018, 9:30 AM
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why are all of you subjects worried about this new set of laws. If I buy 2 bricks from XYZ and come over to your house and give/sell/drop off a brick who is to know? You are so worried about keeping in step with your govt rules you have forgotten how to stand on your own 2 feet.
You elect politicians who dont follow the Constitution and then wonder why your state is in such deep sheet

Last edited by Bt Doctur; 01-04-2018 at 9:34 AM..
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  #143  
Old 01-04-2018, 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
While correct, it's far less important than people reading "or" as "and".
Well, as I pointed out on the last page there are three paragraphs before they get into exemptions. The first two, 30312(a), are the ones that require an ammunition vendor and they only mention sale. The last one, 30312(b), requires actions be face to face, and lists the three actions, and then provides an exception for the “sale” portion of an internet sale or acquisition, as long as the other steps go through the vendor.

So if you transfer ammo to your friend in a face to face transaction, but don’t sell it to him or her, and don’t plan the transfer on the internet*, you haven’t violated the statute.

*note this isn’t me just saying, “if you shut up you won’t get caught”, one could argue that if you tell someone over the internet, “meet me tomorrow and you can have a case of 9mm” then you trigger the “...aquired over the internet...” language in 30312(b) which means you then have to go through an ammo vendor.
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  #144  
Old 01-05-2018, 8:10 AM
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I'm still confused by the "out of state" thing, does this mean I can't go shooting in NV and come back with my left over ammo?
Or for that matter just buy ammo there and bring it back.
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  #145  
Old 01-05-2018, 10:43 AM
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According to Sam Parades of gun owners of kalifornia, who was on KTKZ this morning, you could come back with your ammo purchased in kalifornia that you did not shoot up in Nevada, but you would have to have proof that the ammo was purchased in kalifornia. Also, if you were from another state and wanted to take a shooting course in kalifornia, you are limited to 50 rounds. It gets worse, another topic. Jim H.
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  #146  
Old 01-05-2018, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by emptech View Post
According to Sam Parades of gun owners of kalifornia, who was on KTKZ this morning, you could come back with your ammo purchased in kalifornia that you did not shoot up in Nevada, but you would have to have proof that the ammo was purchased in kalifornia. Also, if you were from another state and wanted to take a shooting course in kalifornia, you are limited to 50 rounds. It gets worse, another topic. Jim H.
I think that's some out of date information regarding the 50 rounds.

As for proving the origin of your ammo I don't see how that's even possible let alone required. Ammo isn't serialized so even a receipt could refer to other ammo. The ammo could be reloads in which case there would be no receipt. The ammo could have been purchased prior to the ban. I don't see anything specific about proving the origin of your ammo.

Ammo received from a family member is exempt anyway.

The import ban as it relates to crossing the border with ammo in your possession is a non-starter in my opinion. It's a law with wide open exceptions that make it impossible to enforce without actually following someone from the gun shop to the border.
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  #147  
Old 01-05-2018, 1:07 PM
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Originally Posted by emptech View Post
According to Sam Parades of gun owners of kalifornia, who was on KTKZ this morning, you could come back with your ammo purchased in kalifornia that you did not shoot up in Nevada, but you would have to have proof that the ammo was purchased in kalifornia. Also, if you were from another state and wanted to take a shooting course in kalifornia, you are limited to 50 rounds. It gets worse, another topic. Jim H.
Usually Sam Paredes is a bit more on top of things, however, he still needs to raise funds for GOC so misinformation isn't wasted.

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Originally Posted by I take shots View Post
I think that's some out of date information regarding the 50 rounds.

As for proving the origin of your ammo I don't see how that's even possible let alone required. Ammo isn't serialized so even a receipt could refer to other ammo. The ammo could be reloads in which case there would be no receipt. The ammo could have been purchased prior to the ban. I don't see anything specific about proving the origin of your ammo.

Ammo received from a family member is exempt anyway.

The import ban as it relates to crossing the border with ammo in your possession is a non-starter in my opinion. It's a law with wide open exceptions that make it impossible to enforce without actually following someone from the gun shop to the border.
^^^^^ I keep repeating this over and over and over. Completely unenforceable.
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  #148  
Old 01-11-2018, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
I was wondering about the handicapped. I am in a wheelchair. While I can drive, some cannot. It is a colossal pain for me but not impossible to get to a store.

If someone cannot drive but buys 22s through the internet to shoot on his own property but cannot get to a store, is he discriminated against? Is seems so, but I am not aware of the ADA provisions about something like this.

Just a concern if I can't drive in the near future.
That is a very good point. If people with disabilities rely on door to door deliveries of ammo...or food for that matter...And now they are required by law to get themselves to a FTF transaction with an FFL? Should they call Project Outreach? This sounds like a clear cut ADA issue. Do Americans with disabilities rights end when they own guns?

Last edited by SBC400; 01-11-2018 at 5:44 PM..
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  #149  
Old 01-11-2018, 6:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SBC400 View Post
That is a very good point. If people with disabilities rely on door to door deliveries of ammo...or food for that matter...And now they are required by law to get themselves to a FTF transaction with an FFL? Should they call Project Outreach? This sounds like a clear cut ADA issue. Do Americans with disabilities rights end when they own guns?


Good point. Currently I am on disability due to an accident and subsequent surgery and am not able to drive myself anywhere.


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  #150  
Old 01-13-2018, 4:11 PM
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Default confiscation unenforcable?

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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
Usually Sam Paredes is a bit more on top of things, however, he still needs to raise funds for GOC so misinformation isn't wasted.



^^^^^ I keep repeating this over and over and over. Completely unenforceable.
The law is mostly unenforceable from criminal conviction standpoint if someone buys ammo at retail out of state or uses a proxy to place an online order. I see a lot of parallels here to the 10+ round magazine ban which is/was nearly impossible to enforce. With that said CADOJ has used investigators in Las Vegas to record people buying 10+ round magazines after the ban and arresting the individual (and getting a felony conviction to boot) after they cross back into CA. It'll only take a few random publicized busts to curb the behavior of ammo importation.

I suspect we will get random confiscations of ammunition when traveling into the state by the highway patrol. I'm not a black helicopter kinda guy but I expect the agricultural checkpoints on the interstates to be used to spot check for ammo imports and seize what they dubiously perceive to be an illegal import. Yes the practice brings up a whole slew of "rights violations" but lets get real, these people are already wiping their collective asses with the constitution and thumbing their nose at the federal government as a whole. While no criminal conviction is likely to come from an agriculture checkpoint confiscation, good luck getting your ammo back. The due process will cost you more than the lost ammo. This is unfortunately the case for dubiously seized firearms...it'll only be harder to get ammo back.

If you buy from a website and ship the ammo to an out of state address you create a digital trail. It would probably be a stretch for CADOJ to get a probable cause warrant to search your e-mail/pc...or just get at your credit card/bank records if they seized ammo from you under the suspicion of illegal importation. With that said,that does not mean they wont do so to create some examples.

Will there be out-of-state "ammo runs" by people...absolutely. I just don't think it'll be the zero risk activity as some make it out to be on here.
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  #151  
Old 01-13-2018, 5:49 PM
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We shall see
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  #152  
Old 01-15-2018, 3:02 PM
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On a different note,

I went by Walmart today and cruised by the outdoors section. The ammo cabinet display is cleaned out and now contains items like knives, airguns, etc. No sign that ammo was ever being sold or displayed there.

Looks to me like Walmart is out of the ammo selling business in California with these new regulations & lack of clear permitting path. Anyone want odds on Walmart selling ammo again in California?
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  #153  
Old 01-15-2018, 4:35 PM
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The ammo case was full at my Walmart yesterday.
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  #154  
Old 01-15-2018, 5:25 PM
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The ammo case was full at my Walmart yesterday.
My WalMart too. And I watched one guy buy and heard another page for "Assistance at the ammo counter" a little later on.

This is in LA county, too... not somewhere more gun-friendly. Where did you see this, scarbubu?
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  #155  
Old 01-15-2018, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveg13 View Post
The ammo case was full at my Walmart yesterday.
Cerritos Walmart was pretty bare yesterday. Some 12g , random .380 , 30-30 and the like. All the good stuff was gone.
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Old 01-15-2018, 6:53 PM
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Irvine

I wonder if they moved it somewhere else at that location?
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:14 AM
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The C.O.E. is why I object. This is just a license to use a license(or a tax to use a license as it is written).
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